Evolution Question

[Skaloop]

Yes this has been done, but there are no survivors.

True, no survivors. But that was not due to rejection of the baboon organ or a failure of the transplant itself; it was due to post-op infections that the patients couldn't fight off, due to the standard suppression of the immune system. Plenty of people getting transplants from humans suffer from the same problems.

From what I have read (so far), it still circles around the viruses the apes harbor.

Why do we (humans) not harbor the same viruses as apes? Was the body smart enough that when it "evolved" it removed the viruses?

Personally I don't think so!

There could be many explanations. Perhaps after we split off from the other apes, we developed a resistance to some viruses, and they evolved resistance to others. Or perhaps the viruses themselves evolved differently in the different lineages. Or perhaps a new virus infected the other ape lines that were separated from the human line.

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

Ok so lets say it is an "ethical" issue. Well we don't find it unethical to take a kidney from someone (seeing how we humans have 2 and can survive on 1) to transplant into someone else. So lets go ahead and leave the heart out of the equation.

Still leaves A LOT of organs that could be used i.e. lungs, kidneys, portion of the liver, etc. Where would it be unethical for us to use these organ parts, to save a humans life?

Last transplant was I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) 1992, well it is now 17 yrs later and still nothing?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Ok so lets say it is an "ethical" issue. Well we don't find it unethical to take a kidney from someone (seeing how we humans have 2 and can survive on 1) to transplant into someone else. So lets go ahead and leave the heart out of the equation.

There's this thing called "consent." A human being posesses the ability to say, "I know I'm taking a big risk giving up one of my kidneys for someone else, I understand that, and I'm willing to take that risk."

Or better still, they can say "You know, once I'm dead, I'm not going to need a lot of these organs, so if I should kick the bucket in more or less one piece, go ahead and cut out whatever you can use to help other people."

Last I checked, animals can't do that.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Yes this has been done, but there are no survivors. From what I have read (so far), it still circles around the viruses the apes harbor.

Why do we (humans) not harbor the same viruses as apes? Was the body smart enough that when it "evolved" it removed the viruses?

Personally I don't think so!

From what I understand, it has to do with endogenous retroviruses that are essentially dormant in the given host species, but can become infectous when transplanted across species.

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

True, no survivors. But that was not due to rejection of the baboon organ or a failure of the transplant itself; it was due to post-op infections that the patients couldn't fight off, due to the standard suppression of the immune system. Plenty of people getting transplants from humans suffer from the same problems.



There could be many explanations. Perhaps after we split off from the other apes, we developed a resistance to some viruses, and they evolved resistance to others. Or perhaps the viruses themselves evolved differently in the different lineages. Or perhaps a new virus infected the other ape lines that were separated from the human line.

Lot of "perhaps" in that last paragraph. OR PERHAPS we didn't come from monkeys at all and that explains why we don't carry the same viruses!

 

[Ectezus]

Actually this is true, they favor using pigs organs over any other specie. Isn't that kind of funny? Maybe we actually come from pigs then, eh?

Look, you are either genuinely interested in the subject and want to educate yourself on the matter or you're just looking to promote creationism.

So far you yourself haven't produced any evidence that your assumption is based on anything. If you're not genuinely interested in the subject and your only goal is just to promote creationism I'm afraid you're wasting your time.

I think you've raised an interesting question, but you're kinda ruining it with your pro-creationism attitude.

- Ectezus

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

There's this thing called "consent." A human being posesses the ability to say, "I know I'm taking a big risk giving up one of my kidneys for someone else, I understand that, and I'm willing to take that risk."

Or better still, they can say "You know, once I'm dead, I'm not going to need a lot of these organs, so if I should kick the bucket in more or less one piece, go ahead and cut out whatever you can use to help other people."

Last I checked, animals can't do that.

So then we only do experiments on animals that give their consent? WOW I want to meet them!

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

Look, you are either genuinely interested in the subject and want to educate yourself on the matter or you're just looking to promote creationism.

So far you yourself haven't produced any evidence that your assumption is based on anything. If you're not genuinely interested in the subject and your only goal is just to promote creationism I'm afraid you're wasting your time.

I think you've raised an interesting question, but you're kinda ruining it with your pro-creationism attitude.

- Ectezus

LOOK I said myelf I have been looking to see why we don't do these transplants. I come to where the educated ones are on evolution, figured you guys would be able to give me a straight out answer.

Guess I was wrong!

 

[Nathan Poe]

A virus evolved into hmmmm nothing? Which means it depleted itself?

Or, A virus evolved alongside its specific host organism -- As a baboon evolved, the virii which it is susceptible to evolved as well, to the point of specialization -- it'll trive inside a baboon, giving its immune system a run for its money, but won't last long in anything but a baboon.

When was the last time you caught a cold from your cat? Or vice versa?

Now, there are a few nasty bugs out there that can hop from one species to another -- Smallpox, Anthrax, Avian and Swine Flus, for example. But for the most part, we don't have much to worry about from other animals' sicknesses -- our immune system can usually take them out without breaking a sweat.

... UNLESS, of course, a person's immune system has been completely surpressed, as a result of, for example, immunosupressive drugs given to transplant patients.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

OR PERHAPS we didn't come from monkeys at all and that explains why we don't carry the same viruses!

Actually, shared retrovirus insertions is one of the pieces of evidence for human-primate common descent. Do we share all retroviral insertions? Of course not, since retroviral insertions can arise in lineages after species have "branched off" into their own lineage.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

LOOK I said myelf I have been looking to see why we don't do these transplants. I come to where the educated ones are on evolution, figured you guys would be able to give me a straight out answer.

Guess I was wrong!

You've been given answers. I guess they just weren't the answers you wanted.

 

[Ectezus]

LOOK I said myelf I have been looking to see why we don't do these transplants. I come to where the educated ones are on evolution, figured you guys would be able to give me a straight out answer.

Guess I was wrong!

You were wrong the moment you made a post about a subject you had NO knowledge about while still having the assumption that it contradicted evolution.
This whole time you've been searching for evidence that supports *your* pro-creationism assumption and so far you haven't found any. Shocker.

- Ectezus

 

[Nathan Poe]

So then we only do experiments on animals that give their consent? WOW I want to meet them!

Do you know/care what you're asking about anymore, or are you just being argumentative?

LOOK I said myelf I have been looking to see why we don't do these transplants. I come to where the educated ones are on evolution, figured you guys would be able to give me a straight out answer.

Guess I was wrong!

Guess that answers that.

 

[Assyrian]

Yes this has been done, but there are no survivors. From what I have read (so far), it still circles around the viruses the apes harbor.

Why do we (humans) not harbor the same viruses as apes? Was the body smart enough that when it "evolved" it removed the viruses?

Personally I don't think so!

Just look at how devastating smallpox was when we introduced it to native populations. It is nasty enough for Europeans but we had a long time to build up a degree of immunity. In populations that had not met it before, it was lethal.

We are close enough to apes for a lot of viruses to make the jump to humans. Especially if we introduce them in an organ right into the middle of our bodies. But these viruses have been evolving in ape populations for millions of years since we shared a common ancestor with them. In that time ape immune systems have been responding to the changes in the viruses and adapting to them. We haven't been in contact with the virus as it evolved so our immune system does not have a response.

Of course people getting xenotransplants are probably going to be on immuno-suppressants too to avoid organ rejection.

 

[Skaloop]

Ok so lets say it is an "ethical" issue. Well we don't find it unethical to take a kidney from someone (seeing how we humans have 2 and can survive on 1) to transplant into someone else.

That's horribly unethical. Nobody takes an organ; the organ is offered with informed consent.

So lets go ahead and leave the heart out of the equation.

Still leaves A LOT of organs that could be used i.e. lungs, kidneys, portion of the liver, etc. Where would it be unethical for us to use these organ parts, to save a humans life?

How many baboons do we have ready access to? How many of those would even be viable donors? How many of those would be matches for a specific human? How many of those would lack any infections that would preclude transplantation?

I read an estimate that there are 350,000 non-human apes worldwide. That's a pretty limited number compared to the human population. With over 100,000 people on the waiting list in the US alone, and given that apes do not reproduce very quickly, we'd be out of ape donors in a few years.

Last transplant was I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) 1992, well it is now 17 yrs later and still nothing?

Probably because it is not a reasonably viable path to take. Better to focus on improving standard transplant techniques and encouraging organ donation by humans rather than using an animal already struggling population-wise. Is it ethical to drive a species towards extinction?

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

You were wrong the moment you made a post about a subject you had NO knowledge about while still having the assumption that it contradicted evolution.
This whole time you've been searching for evidence that supports *your* pro-creationism assumption and so far you haven't found any. Shocker.

- Ectezus

Your right, I admitted that from the beginning, that I myself was trying to see why we don't use Apes for organ transplants. Main point being that if we come from apes we should be able to use their organs. I guess I just wanted to point that out to all the evolutionist.

Argumentative? Yes I will give you that, I am.

Oh FYI - My Avatar "Jesus is the final answer", should of been a DEAD give away of what side of the fence I stand on.

Wow us Christian can still shock you? I find that interesting in itself.

 

[Cabal]

Wow us Christian can still shock you? I find that interesting in itself.

No, sadly this kind of attitude is far too common.

Nice work.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

Your right, I admitted that from the beginning, that I myself was trying to see why we don't use Apes for organ transplants. Main point being that if we come from apes we should be able to use their organs.

Why? A friend of mine is in need of a kidney donation, both his parents and a sibling were tested and found to be incompatible. Does this mean that they were not related?

 

[Skaloop]

Lot of "perhaps" in that last paragraph. OR PERHAPS we didn't come from monkeys at all and that explains why we don't carry the same viruses!

The perhaps is referring to how viruses might be different in different lineages of apes. The perhaps is because there are multiple different ways that those differences could have come about.

As for coming from monkeys/apes (or, rather, sharing a common ancestor with the other modern apes), there is no perhaps about it.

It's like if I drove across the country. Perhaps I took the highway for efficiency, or perhaps I took the the minor roads for the scenic route. Either way, I did drive across the country.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Why? A friend of mine is in need of a kidney donation, both his parents and a sibling were tested and found to be incompatible. Does this mean that they were not related?

Evidently not, according to the OPs logic.