Evolution or Creationism?

[Oncedeceived]

Read the post.

You implied that god had no control over the development of dangerous bacteria, viruses, parasites...
But I assume you do believe he had control over the development of humans.

That seems contradictory.
If he can steer evolution to produce humans, he can also steer evolution to not produce worms that eat your eyeballs from the inside out.

Also, as a side note:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/dead-children-go-straight-to-heaven.7902963/

I never implied God didn't have any control over them.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I never implied God didn't have any control over them.

Here's what you said:

Disease is a reality. The Christian worldview holds that death and suffering are realities that come with the way in which God set up life as a self-reproducing life form. Those same mutations and changes bring about disease and suffering as well as fantastically remarkable healing abilities in our bodies.

It seems to me to be quite clear that you implied that viruses, bacteria, etc are a side effect of the system that has been set up. I'm assuming that you are talking about evolution here.

If that isn't what you meant, then please clarify what you really meant with that post.
Because I don't see another way of understanding it at this point.

Also keep in mind what you were responding to... which was this:

And the horrific suffering that many of them experience before passing through that magic door.......?

So, clearly, you were trying to put the blame of this horrific suffering on the system of biology, rather then god himself.
Implying that god can't be blamed for desease, infections, etc and the horrible suffering that comes along with it.

If god can't be blamed for it, then it follows that you think that god didn't PLAN for it to happen. Which is why I understood your post to mean that desease is but a side effect of the system.

From that logically follows that god had no control over the system. Because if he did, then he WOULD be to blame for not preventing such horrible things to develop.

But if he had no control over the system..... then he also didn't have control over the development of humans. That's why I said that you can't have your cake and eat it to.

Either he had control over it and meant for humans to exist as well as all the horrible viruses, bacteria, parasites, etc or he didn't.


This is why I say that I can't follow what your position is.
Because you are giving contradicting signals.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Here's what you said:

It seems to me to be quite clear that you implied that viruses, bacteria, etc are a side effect of the system that has been set up. I'm assuming that you are talking about evolution here.

Yes, I am talking about evolution. I don't believe that evolution is a mindless process with no goals or plan. Just like anything else in this world there are the good and the bad.

If that isn't what you meant, then please clarify what you really meant with that post.
Because I don't see another way of understanding it at this point.

Also keep in mind what you were responding to... which was this:

So, clearly, you were trying to put the blame of this horrific suffering on the system of biology, rather then god himself.
Implying that god can't be blamed for desease, infections, etc and the horrible suffering that comes along with it.

If god can't be blamed for it, then it follows that you think that god didn't PLAN for it to happen. Which is why I understood your post to mean that desease is but a side effect of the system.

From that logically follows that god had no control over the system. Because if he did, then he WOULD be to blame for not preventing such horrible things to develop.

But if he had no control over the system..... then he also didn't have control over the development of humans. That's why I said that you can't have your cake and eat it to.

We run into bringing into this the fall and it then could go into general apologetics.

Either he had control over it and meant for humans to exist as well as all the horrible viruses, bacteria, parasites, etc or he didn't.


This is why I say that I can't follow what your position is.
Because you are giving contradicting signals.[/QUOTE]

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, I am talking about evolution. I don't believe that evolution is a mindless process with no goals or plan.

Okay....

So, god DID plan for horrible parasites, viruses and bacteria?
And worms that eat your eyeballs from the inside out?

You seem to be dancing all around this and I can only wonder why you refuse to give straightforward answers here...

Just like anything else in this world there are the good and the bad.

But since evolution, in your belief, is planned, you must acknowledge that these horrible organisms were planned for as well, right?

We run into bringing into this the fall and it then could go into general apologetics.

Hmmm. Maybe that just means that you actually don't have any answers here and that the only way out you have is by retreating into general apologetics?

This sounds a lot like what I stated a couple of posts ago... that you have dug a hole you can't get out of and that you can only retreat into apologetics or the "mysterious ways"-card to pretend that there isn't a problem in your statements here.

However, I'm not talking about apologetics. I'm merely talking about biology and asking you about what you believe the role of god is in that system.

You also haven't clarified - at all - what you really meant by that post I quoted... I can only understand it to mean that you believe horrible organisms are a side effect that wasn't intended for some reason, or which god couldn't control.

Also, and now it becomes extra hard for you I guess, why would the fall have any play in this?

Since you said that you generally accept evolution (let's assume theistic evolution here), I'll assume that you accept that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that life came into being (let's assume god created it here) some 3.6 billion years ago and that the diversity of life then developed, right?

The fall requires humans to exist, correct?
Homo Sapiens is some 200.000 years old. Let's say the fall happened around that time (doesn't really matter to my argument if it's 200.000 or 6000).

Are you saying that for the 3.6 billion years preceeding that, there was no desease? No parasites? No dangerous bacteria?

See? It's completely unclear what your position is on these matters.

To be frank, I think you don't even know what your position actually is.
I don't think you have one.

I think your responses are very ad hoc and you just say whatever you think supports your religion at that particular time.

In other words, I think you are making it all up as you go along.

Why else would you dance all around these issues?
Why else would you try to dodge the entire topic by claiming it goes into "apologetics"?


I still hope you can clarify your position and I'm very interested to learn about it.
But until you do, I can only run with that conclusion. I don't have another viable explanation.

Regards.

 

[Loudmouth]

All part of the psychological gymnastics:

Something good = we understand it is from God.

Something bad = we can't really understand it.

Tails I win, Heads you lose. Christian apologetics in a nutshell.

 

[bhsmte]

Okay....

So, god DID plan for horrible parasites, viruses and bacteria?
And worms that eat your eyeballs from the inside out?

You seem to be dancing all around this and I can only wonder why you refuse to give straightforward answers here...



But since evolution, in your belief, is planned, you must acknowledge that these horrible organisms were planned for as well, right?



Hmmm. Maybe that just means that you actually don't have any answers here and that the only way out you have is by retreating into general apologetics?

This sounds a lot like what I stated a couple of posts ago... that you have dug a hole you can't get out of and that you can only retreat into apologetics or the "mysterious ways"-card to pretend that there isn't a problem in your statements here.

However, I'm not talking about apologetics. I'm merely talking about biology and asking you about what you believe the role of god is in that system.

You also haven't clarified - at all - what you really meant by that post I quoted... I can only understand it to mean that you believe horrible organisms are a side effect that wasn't intended for some reason, or which god couldn't control.

Also, and now it becomes extra hard for you I guess, why would the fall have any play in this?

Since you said that you generally accept evolution (let's assume theistic evolution here), I'll assume that you accept that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that life came into being (let's assume god created it here) some 3.6 billion years ago and that the diversity of life then developed, right?

The fall requires humans to exist, correct?
Homo Sapiens is some 200.000 years old. Let's say the fall happened around that time (doesn't really matter to my argument if it's 200.000 or 6000).

Are you saying that for the 3.6 billion years preceeding that, there was no desease? No parasites? No dangerous bacteria?

See? It's completely unclear what your position is on these matters.

To be frank, I think you don't even know what your position actually is.
I don't think you have one.

I think your responses are very ad hoc and you just say whatever you think supports your religion at that particular time.

In other words, I think you are making it all up as you go along.

Why else would you dance all around these issues?
Why else would you try to dodge the entire topic by claiming it goes into "apologetics"?


I still hope you can clarify your position and I'm very interested to learn about it.
But until you do, I can only run with that conclusion. I don't have another viable explanation.

Regards.

Well done!!!

Watch the defense mechanisms kick in.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Okay....

So, god DID plan for horrible parasites, viruses and bacteria?
And worms that eat your eyeballs from the inside out?

You seem to be dancing all around this and I can only wonder why you refuse to give straightforward answers here...



But since evolution, in your belief, is planned, you must acknowledge that these horrible organisms were planned for as well, right?



Hmmm. Maybe that just means that you actually don't have any answers here and that the only way out you have is by retreating into general apologetics?

This sounds a lot like what I stated a couple of posts ago... that you have dug a hole you can't get out of and that you can only retreat into apologetics or the "mysterious ways"-card to pretend that there isn't a problem in your statements here.

However, I'm not talking about apologetics. I'm merely talking about biology and asking you about what you believe the role of god is in that system.

You also haven't clarified - at all - what you really meant by that post I quoted... I can only understand it to mean that you believe horrible organisms are a side effect that wasn't intended for some reason, or which god couldn't control.

Also, and now it becomes extra hard for you I guess, why would the fall have any play in this?

Since you said that you generally accept evolution (let's assume theistic evolution here), I'll assume that you accept that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that life came into being (let's assume god created it here) some 3.6 billion years ago and that the diversity of life then developed, right?

The fall requires humans to exist, correct?
Homo Sapiens is some 200.000 years old. Let's say the fall happened around that time (doesn't really matter to my argument if it's 200.000 or 6000).

Are you saying that for the 3.6 billion years preceeding that, there was no desease? No parasites? No dangerous bacteria?

See? It's completely unclear what your position is on these matters.

To be frank, I think you don't even know what your position actually is.
I don't think you have one.

I think your responses are very ad hoc and you just say whatever you think supports your religion at that particular time.

In other words, I think you are making it all up as you go along.

Why else would you dance all around these issues?
Why else would you try to dodge the entire topic by claiming it goes into "apologetics"?


I still hope you can clarify your position and I'm very interested to learn about it.
But until you do, I can only run with that conclusion. I don't have another viable explanation.

Regards.

The fall only affects mankind. Life and death occurred to plants and animals prior to the fall. The fall however is all about Adam and Eve the first spiritual humans.

Adam and Eve killed to eat. Adam and Eve would not have had to suffer as did all previous life on earth if they had followed God's mandates. They didn't. They then were susceptible to disease and death as all life had been before.

To answer your question...did God plan for viruses, parasites and bacteria? Yes.

 

[Zosimus]

Tails I win, Heads you lose. Christian apologetics in a nutshell.

Couldn't the same thing be said about general science apologists?

If ancient people knew how to do x, then they used science to determine how to do so.
If ancient people did not know how to do x, then they were ignorant people unenlightened by science.

 

[Loudmouth]

Couldn't the same thing be said about general science apologists?

No. We produce falsifiable hypotheses.

 

[SteveB28]

In order to do that then you have to give up free will.

Such errant nonsense! Is it not possible for your God to 'set up' a world in which free will is preserved, but there is also an absence of suffering? Is heaven not free of suffering and evil? Do we have free will there? I'm betting your answer to both is 'yes', so, in the Christian mind at least, your God has already created a world in which free will is exercised and yet no pain or suffering exists!

 

[SteveB28]

Why would it not make sense that we still grow and mature in Heaven. I look forward to going to the university when I get there. I look forward to learning from the people that actually wrote the Bible. I want to thank David for helping me to understand the Love that God has for me and the purpose of the Law of God to protect me and keep me from harm. I can not begin to tell you all I look forward to when I get there.

My advice? Pack lightly.........

 

[SteveB28]

Titus1:5 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

"Unto the deluded all things are pure", even the senseless suffering of small children!

 

[SteveB28]

The fall only affects mankind. Life and death occurred to plants and animals prior to the fall. The fall however is all about Adam and Eve the first spiritual humans.

Adam and Eve killed to eat. Adam and Eve would not have had to suffer as did all previous life on earth if they had followed God's mandates. They didn't. They then were susceptible to disease and death as all life had been before.

To answer your question...did God plan for viruses, parasites and bacteria? Yes.

So, he planned for worms that eat children's eyeballs??

 

[Oncedeceived]

"Unto the deluded all things are pure", even the senseless suffering of small children!

What do you base your moral indignation upon of suffering of small children?

 

[Oncedeceived]

So, he planned for worms that eat children's eyeballs??

So you would say that there are universal standards of morality that transcend man in determining that any pain or suffering of a child is evil?

 

[crjmurray]

So, he planned for worms that eat children's eyeballs??

Yes.

 

[SteveB28]

What do you base your moral indignation upon of suffering of small children?

On the basis that I can recognise and empathise with that suffering.

On what do you base your moral acceptance of your God supposedly permitting that suffering; moreover, that he planned it, at least in the case of Toxocara, the 'eyeball worm'!?

 

[SteveB28]

So you would say that there are universal standards of morality that transcend man in determining that any pain or suffering of a child is evil?

I make no such assertion. I merely ask if you think it to be the case that your God planned the creation of a worm that eats children's eyeballs?

 

[AV1611VET]

I merely ask if you think it to be the case that your God planned the creation of a worm that eats children's eyeballs?

No.

I would say He planned for worms that eat childrens' eyeballs.

They certainly didn't take Him by surprise.

 

[Zosimus]

No. We produce falsifiable hypotheses.