Evolution or Creationism?

[Zosimus]

Such errant nonsense! Is it not possible for your God to 'set up' a world in which free will is preserved, but there is also an absence of suffering? Is heaven not free of suffering and evil? Do we have free will there? I'm betting your answer to both is 'yes', so, in the Christian mind at least, your God has already created a world in which free will is exercised and yet no pain or suffering exists!

Sure. All you have to do is exclude all those people who would use their free will to create pain and suffering.

 

[Oncedeceived]

On the basis that I can recognise and empathise with that suffering.

On what do you base your moral acceptance of your God supposedly permitting that suffering; moreover, that he planned it, at least in the case of Toxocara, the 'eyeball worm'!?

He planned life, he planned adaptation and free will. I know that God is merciful and loving and because of that I know there is a reason for all things including disease and suffering.

You have to view morality as something real and tangible to consider suffering as something bad and that doesn't fit within your own worldview. In your worldview, good and bad don't really exist. Disease is just something that happens and worms eating eyeballs are just the way it is.

 

[joshua 1 9]

My advice? Pack lightly.........

As long as we are packed up, prayed up and ready to go up to be with Jesus.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I make no such assertion. I merely ask if you think it to be the case that your God planned the creation of a worm that eats children's eyeballs?

Sickness and disease is the work of Satan. God is in the healing business and it is His plan for us to prosper and to be in good health. God will not take the blame for the mess that man and Satan have made out of this world.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Sure. All you have to do is exclude all those people who would use their free will to create pain and suffering.

 

[Gene2memE]

Sickness and disease is the work of Satan. God is in the healing business and it is His plan for us to prosper and to be in good health. God will not take the blame for the mess that man and Satan have made out of this world.

You present no evidence of either proposition, nor for the existence of either entity.

Why then, should I accept your claim?


On the issue of suffering, free will and evil perhaps this would help you. Its a short video (~4:40) on the problem of evil that is fairly close to my own thinking on the matter:

 

[Zosimus]

You present no evidence of either proposition, nor for the existence of either entity.

Why then, should I accept your claim?


On the issue of suffering, free will and evil perhaps this would help you. Its a short video (~4:40) on the problem of evil that is fairly close to my own thinking on the matter:

Your argument presupposes that pain is bad. What if your body was constructed in a way that you couldn't feel pain? You could calmly stick your hand into a fire and burn it clean off without ever feeling pain. Would that be better?

Or what about guilt? What if you could kill people with immunity and never have a twinge of conscience? Would that be a better world?

Your argument also presupposes that God created everything ex nihilo. It's not that God was kicking back with you in the universe and said, "You look like you could use a spirit and a physical body. I can provide you with both. I just ask that you use them to do good things and not bad things."

 

[SteveB28]

He planned life, he planned adaptation and free will. I know that God is merciful and loving and because of that I know there is a reason for all things including disease and suffering.

And another way of expressing that is to say - " I have no idea why my God causes/allows so much cruelty and suffering to persist, but I have decided that it must be actually 'good', because it permits me to maintain the belief I have in this god's existence, even though I have no tangible evidence to support such a belief." There.

You have to view morality as something real and tangible to consider suffering as something bad and that doesn't fit within your own worldview. In your worldview, good and bad don't really exist. Disease is just something that happens and worms eating eyeballs are just the way it is.

Thank you so much for telling me what and how I think - I don't know how I've survived for so long without your assistance! Now, in fact 'bad' and 'good' most certainly do exist within my world view - it's just that they don't depend upon the arbitrary dictates of an imaginary deity, the actions of whom cannot even be fathomed by those who believe it exists! My concept of good and bad is located at the intersection of two realities - my ability to empathise with those who are harmed or in pain and, as a contributing member of a cohesive society, the recognition of the consensus under which that group operates with respect to the care of others.

 

[joshua 1 9]

On the issue of suffering, free will and evil perhaps this would help you. Its a short video (~4:40) on the problem of evil that is fairly close to my own thinking on the matter:

God says to give thanks in all things. There are lots of things that it does not even make sense that we should be thankful for. Yet He says to give thanks. The reason is that He is going to cause good to come out of everything, he is going to work all things out for the best. This only God could do because as humans we just don't have the ability to turn evil around so that good can come out of it.

 

[SteveB28]

Sickness and disease is the work of Satan. God is in the healing business and it is His plan for us to prosper and to be in good health. God will not take the blame for the mess that man and Satan have made out of this world.

Well, you need to have a discussion with your Christian friend, because she asserts that all of those nasty things were planned by your God. And, in the case of Toxocara, we aren't talking about sickness and disease. We are talking about a living thing which lives quite healthily by feeding upon, amongst other things, the eyeballs of babies.

None of that is odd, of course. In the desperation to maintain the image of an imaginary deity, Christians will frequently invent totally different scenaria to maintain their beliefs.

 

[joshua 1 9]

We are talking about a living thing which lives quite healthily by feeding upon, amongst other things, the eyeballs of babies.

Yes I can understand why that would upset you. That is why we ask for eyes that can see and ears that can hear. We do not need something feeding on the eyeballs of the babies in Christ.

 

[SteveB28]

Yes I can understand why that would upset you. That is why we ask for eyes that can see and ears that can hear. We do not need something feeding on the eyeballs of the babies in Christ.

Pardon? In the context of my comments, that made no sense at all I'm afraid.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Pardon? In the context of my comments, that made no sense at all I'm afraid.

I am showing you how the physical is an object lesson for the spiritual. Allegorys are very much designed this way. The Bible talks about shadows and types used to help us to understand what God is wanting us to learn.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Well, you need to have a discussion with your Christian friend, because she asserts that all of those nasty things were planned by your God. And, in the case of Toxocara, we aren't talking about sickness and disease. We are talking about a living thing which lives quite healthily by feeding upon, amongst other things, the eyeballs of babies.

None of that is odd, of course. In the desperation to maintain the image of an imaginary deity, Christians will frequently invent totally different scenaria to maintain their beliefs.

Provide the statistics of how many "babies" Toxocara infects babies. Provide documentation for it eating the eyeballs of babies.

Well, you need to have a discussion with your Christian friend, because she asserts that all of those nasty things were planned by your God. And, in the case of Toxocara, we aren't talking about sickness and disease. We are talking about a living thing which lives quite healthily by feeding upon, amongst other things, the eyeballs of babies.

None of that is odd, of course. In the desperation to maintain the image of an imaginary deity, Christians will frequently invent totally different scenaria to maintain their beliefs.

You are using emotion rather than reason. We know that parasites, viruses and bacteria can be good and have good reason to exist. The fact that humans can be affected by nature is not evidence against God's goodness but simply God's world and how we learn to live in it. Pain is necessary to survive and so are some of the the parasites that help us. Good and evil exist.

 

[Gene2memE]

Your argument presupposes that pain is bad.

Not arguing that pain, or having a conscience, is a bad thing. Both have distinct natural advantages. I'm arguing instead that there is no evidence for an omnipotent, all-loving being and that the logical case for the existence of such is negated by the problem of evil (not the problem of pain, or the problem of conscience), despite apologetic-style handwaving about free will.

Why is there unnecessary suffering? Why is the free-will of individuals such they can deliberately introduce suffering into the lives of others? What sort of all-loving and all-powerful being permits that?

Your argument also presupposes that God created everything ex nihilo.

Are you arguing that he didn't? Seems like a limitation. What good is a limited god then?

It's not that God was kicking back with you in the universe and said, "You look like you could use a spirit and a physical body. I can provide you with both. I just ask that you use them to do good things and not bad things."

I have plenty of evidence that I have a physical body. I have no evidence for the existence of omnipotent world creating beings, or a "spirit" - whatever that may be.

Once you demonstate the existence of this being, then we can start categorising its attributes. Until then, I see no basis to proceed from.

 

[Gene2memE]

Prevalence of toxocariasis PLOS study from 2009:

Using a nationally representative set of banked sera, the CDC has undertaken two major national surveys for toxocariasis. The first was reported more than 20 years ago using sera from children aged 1 to 11 that were collected during the first Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (HANES I) of over 23,000 persons 1 to 74 years of age in 35 geographic regions from 1971 to 1973.

Nationwide, the overall prevalence was found to vary between 4.6% and 7.3%, but ranged as high as 10% in the American South and over 30% for socioeconomically disadvantaged African American children. Higher seroprevalence was also linked to markers of low socioeconomic status, including poverty and crowding and lower educational level for head of household.

In 2008, the CDC again reported on Toxocara seroprevalence from the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III), a cross-sectional survey conducted between 1988 and 1994. The survey sampled at higher rates specific minority groups (e.g., non-Hispanic blacks and Mexican Americans) and age groups (young children and the elderly). Based on a representative sample of just over 20,000 in individuals over the age of 6, the overall seroprevalence was 13.9%, suggesting that tens of millions of Americans are infected with Toxocara. However, the seroprevalence was found to be considerably higher among non-Hispanic blacks and people living in poverty.

Based on the number of African Americans living in poverty in the US, we calculated that as many as 2.8 million have toxocariasis, making this disease one of the most common infections among any underrepresented minority groups.

In a separate study conducted in the 1990s, high rates of toxocariasis were also found among inner city Hispanic populations in Bridgeport and New Haven, Connecticut, especially among Puerto Rican immigrants. High rates of the infection were noted previously to occur in Puerto Rico.

Given its proposed links with asthma and developmental delays, human toxocariasis may represent a health disparity of staggering proportions, possibly associated with the high frequency of asthma and developmental delays noted among African Americans and some Hispanic groups living in poverty. The earlier association noted between toxocariasis and elevated lead levels observed in the HANES I study was confirmed in the NHANES III serum bank data, as was an interesting association between toxocariasis and co-infection with toxoplasmosis. The health and developmental impact of these co-factors also warrants further investigation.

Globally, high rates of toxocariasis has been noted in middle-income countries, with prevalence rates reaching 40% or higher in Indonesia and Brazil. Although there are few reported studies from low-income countries, it is of great interest to determine whether infection rates with Toxocara may exceed some of the better known human soil-transmitted helminth infections such as ascariasis, trichuriasis, or hookworm infection.

CDC states at least 70 people per year are blinded in the US by toxocariasis, most of them children

More on the risk to children:

Individuals of all ages are at risk. VLM [visceral larva migrans] associated with severe symptoms occurs mainly in young children, age 18 months to 3 years old. Children within this age group who engage in geophagic pica have greater risk in an environment contaminated with Toxocara eggs. The infective worm burden along with the host response, determines the level of infestation and disease severity. Overall, VLM is diagnosed primarily in children, age 1-7 years. OLM [cular larva migrans] occurs more often in older children, adolescents and young adults.

The pathology of OLM (the one that effects the eyes):

Ocular larva migrans (OLM)

• Ocular toxocariasis or OLM refers to eye (usually retinal) involvement during Toxocara infection. Larvae migrate to and invade the eyes, where they induce an eosinophilic inflammatory reaction.
• OLM can occur in patients after a diagnosed case of systemic disease with VLM, currently with VLM, or alone without clinical evidence of VLM
• Ocular toxocariasis is an uncommon disease that occurs primarily in young patients.[30] However, patients with OLM tend to be older (age 5-10 years old) than those with VLM (primarily age 1-4 years old).
• Males and females are affected equally. Patients can report a history of recent exposure to puppies or kittens. Parents may report geophagic pica behavior in their children.
• The disease is unilateral in most cases, with mild-to-moderate intermediate or diffuse inflammation. Bilateral involvement has been reported in adults.
• Cases of isolated OLM lack systemic symptoms, such as fever, cough, and abdominal pain, and do not have marked eosinophilia. The lack of symptoms with OLM as seen in VLM, suggest that visceral and ocular manifestations are separate clinical entities.[5] .
• Loss of visual acuity, leukocoria (white pupillary reflex), strabismus, and ocular pain are clinical findings.
  • There is no pathognomonic presentation for OLM.
  • Ophthalmological evaluation is fostered due to uveitis, endophthalmitis, strabismus or impaired vision.
  • Other presentations of OLM include endophthalmitis with secondary retinal detachment, retinal granulomas, uveitis, vitreous abscess, and optic neuritis.
  • These clinical findings can be mistaken for retinoblastoma. OLM has been cited as a cause of pseudo-retinoblastoma.
    • Tools to differentiate are ocular ultrasonography, serology ELISA for T. canis, and cytology of aqueous humor.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The fall only affects mankind. Life and death occurred to plants and animals prior to the fall.

So..... the fall has nothing to do with horrible organisms?
Then there's no point in bringing that up.

Adam and Eve killed to eat. Adam and Eve would not have had to suffer as did all previous life on earth if they had followed God's mandates. They didn't. They then were susceptible to disease and death as all life had been before.

So.... when homo sapiens first evolved.... they were somehow immune to all dangerous organisms? Or were only these two "chosen" humans immune?

To answer your question...did God plan for viruses, parasites and bacteria? Yes.

Why couldn't you just have said this the first time when SteveB26 questioned you on it? Why did you say this instead:

Disease is a reality. The Christian worldview holds that death and suffering are realities that come with the way in which God set up life as a self-reproducing life form. Those same mutations and changes bring about disease and suffering as well as fantastically remarkable healing abilities in our bodies.

And imply that it wasn't god's fault, but rather a side-effect?

It's still completely unclear to me why you think that when Homo Sapiens first evolved, they somehow were immune to dangerous organisms and harmful mutations?
What's your evidence for that claim?

It kind of smells like another ad hoc "explanation".

 

[DogmaHunter]

So you would say that there are universal standards of morality that transcend man in determining that any pain or suffering of a child is evil?

Funny how you try to make this about SteveB26's moral compass.

 

[DogmaHunter]

He planned life, he planned adaptation and free will.

Planned "adaption"?
What does that mean?
Random mutation? If yes, then we are back to square one.
Did he have control over the direction of evolution?

It's a yes or no.
Yes: then he is responsible for horrible organisms
No: then he is not responsible for the development of humans.

You are trying to have it both ways, but you can't. At least not while staying rational and intellectually honest.

I know that God is merciful and loving

No, you believe that.

and because of that I know there is a reason for all things including disease and suffering.

Yes, yes... "god has a plan". "god works in mysterious ways"
And all these horrible things? Well, there MUST be a "loving and merciful" reason for it.... why? Well, because it HAS TO, otherwise it contradicts what I already believe.

That's the vibe you are exhibiting here.

You have to view morality as something real and tangible to consider suffering as something bad and that doesn't fit within your own worldview.

Eum....
In the word "morality", one already acknowledges the difference between well-being and suffering. Without that distinction as a premise, the word "morality" has no meaning.

In your worldview, good and bad don't really exist.

This is simply not true.

Disease is just something that happens and worms eating eyeballs are just the way it is.

So..... it wasn't planned for by your god?

You are contradicting yourself. Again.
You previously literally stated that your god DID plan for horrible parasites.
Now, you're saying that it's just something "that happens". Implying no reason, no intention, no person, no planning.

So, which is it?

As usual, I can't follow what your actual position is.
It seems you are again back to saying whatever you think supports your position at this time - no matter if you are contradicting whatever you said in a previous post.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Your argument presupposes that pain is bad.

I'ld rather say that pain is unpleasant.

Pain is, off course, a good thing to be able to experience.
But it is quite unpleasant to experience pain.
If you disagree with that, I'll be inclined to believe that you have some type of diagnosable psychological problem.

Or what about guilt? What if you could kill people with immunity and never have a twinge of conscience? Would that be a better world?

Also called: psychopathy.

Your argument also presupposes that God created everything ex nihilo.

It seems you are not aware that a lot of people on this forum believe exactly that.