Evolution or Creationism?

[DogmaHunter]

To even begin to understand the implications of such things upon mankind one needs to take as a whole the Bible and God's complete sovereignty.

Why?

That's not what you first stated though. I was responding to what you said. Are you now going to change what you said?
That's fine though, if you wish to retract your statement or if you wish to reformulate or something.

But I'ld like to have a clear view of your position first.

We as Christians have a personal relationship with God and know He is good and merciful and loving and holds all understanding of our world.

Errr... owkay.
How is this related in any way to the existance of viruses, parasites and dangerous bacteria?

We may not understand all reasons for why things happen in the way we do but we can rest assured that there is a reason.

So...... "shut up and just believe"?

God chose to create the way He chose to create and viruses, parasites and bacteria are part of that scenario.

Okay. But this directly contradicts what you said earlier.
Which is fine, but please make it clear what you are actually saying, because at this point, I can't follow anymore what your position on the issue is.

Your whole reply actually kind of smells like "oops, I dug this hole and I can't get out... i'll just play the god-works-in-mysterious-ways-card and pretend that solves it".


Just to remind you, this is what you said:

Disease is a reality. The Christian worldview holds that death and suffering are realities that come with the way in which God set up life as a self-reproducing life form. Those same mutations and changes bring about disease and suffering as well as fantastically remarkable healing abilities in our bodies.

Emphasis mine.

It seems like you are saying that God has no control over mutations and what life forms develop. That the system he has set up inevitably leads to the evolution of bacteria and parasites etc who's survival depends on infecting and killing humans (among others).

So, this God has no control over what things evolution produces.
But where does that leave humans?

He could control evolution to produce humans, but he couldn't control evolution to not produce worms that eat your eyeballs from the inside out?

What's that about?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Well, if everything that happens, happens according to God's will (as many christians like to state), then by definition this God is to blame for the deaths of children (and anyone else, for that matter).

But that is not what I said though.
What I said is rather a factual response to what YOU said.

If a child that dies gets to go straight to heaven, then from that logically follows that killing children is the equivalent of ensuring their salvation.

That's a factual response to what you said if you actually meant what you said.

Life is a gift, for everyone. If a life was given, it is suppose to be cherished. So killing children for any purpose goes against our theology.

 

[bhsmte]

I just took it from a Christian story

http://kfor.com/2015/06/11/mom-charged-with-killing-kids-leaves-note-about-final-moments/

You bet, that is what the theology claims.

Never mind that 9 million children die each year before the age of five (many in agony), while their parents and loved one's prey for them to not suffer, with no change. Then we just write it off by saying God works in mysterious ways and they are going to a better place. All the while, a Christian will claim; "God cured me" or God provided something for them, all while these millions of children are dying.

Furthermore, 2/3 of the world's population is doomed anyway according to this theology, no matter how good a life a non christian leads and no matter how bad a life a Christian leads, as long as the Christian repents.

The ultimate, get out of jail free card, which is absent any level of compassion; we are special and you aren't, because you disagree with us.

Bankrupt morality IMO.

 

[bhsmte]

Why?

That's not what you first stated though. I was responding to what you said. Are you now going to change what you said?
That's fine though, if you wish to retract your statement or if you wish to reformulate or something.

But I'ld like to have a clear view of your position first.




Errr... owkay.
How is this related in any way to the existance of viruses, parasites and dangerous bacteria?




So...... "shut up and just believe"?



Okay. But this directly contradicts what you said earlier.
Which is fine, but please make it clear what you are actually saying, because at this point, I can't follow anymore what your position on the issue is.

Your whole reply actually kind of smells like "oops, I dug this hole and I can't get out... i'll just play the god-works-in-mysterious-ways-card and pretend that solves it".


Just to remind you, this is what you said:



Emphasis mine.

It seems like you are saying that God has no control over mutations and what life forms develop. That the system he has set up inevitably leads to the evolution of bacteria and parasites etc who's survival depends on infecting and killing humans (among others).

So, this God has no control over what things evolution produces.
But where does that leave humans?

He could control evolution to produce humans, but he couldn't control evolution to not produce worms that eat your eyeballs from the inside out?

What's that about?

It appears to some, God has complete control when something good happens and he gets the credit.

When something bad happens, that is when the psychological gymnastics begins.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Why?

That's not what you first stated though. I was responding to what you said. Are you know going to change what you said?
That's fine though, if you wish to retract your statement or if you wish to reformulate or something.

But I'ld like to have a clear view of your position first.

How is that unrelated or reformulating my position?

Errr... owkay.
How is this related in any way to the existance of viruses, parasites and dangerous bacteria?

Uh, it was brought up in the discussion.

So...... "shut up and just believe"?

I don't believe I said that.

Okay. But this directly contradicts what you said earlier.
Which is fine, but please make it clear what you are actually saying, because at this point, I can't follow anymore what your position on the issue is.

How does it contradict what I said earlier?

Your whole reply actually kind of smells like "oops, I dug this hole and I can't get out... i'll just play the god-works-in-mysterious-ways-card and pretend that solves it".

Oh, I don't know only works in your worldview. I see.

 

[lasthero]

You all really are fatalists. Thou shalt not kill. Plain and simple. If you are Christian, know God and understand life if a gift

In the Christian view, how is life a gift? You get to spend time on a fallen world that's rich in sin and temptation, which will decrease the chances of you going to heaven and increase the chances of you going to hell. How is coming here a good thing? What, exactly, is the benefit to coming here as opposed to just going straight to heaven?

you would not take a life...no ones life and especially your own child's.

You can be forgiven for sins, though. And if you believe it gets your child into heaven, gauranteed, why not?

 

[asherahSamaria]

Would you kill your child if they were suffering from a horrendous incurable disease? IF they were suffering and in pain, would you kill them?

I don't know - it's not something I would particularly relish contemplating.

I'm not claiming that they will go to a heaven though - and bringing your particular scenario into it is dodging the original issue of belief in that.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You bet, that is what the theology claims.

You bet what is what theology claims?

Never mind that 9 million children die each year before the age of five (many in agony), while their parents and loved one's prey for them to not suffer, with no change. Then we just write it off by saying God works in mysterious ways and they are going to a better place. All the while, a Christian will claim; "God cured me" or God provided something for them, all while these millions of children are dying.

So do you believe they should just be put out of the misery?

Furthermore, 2/3 of the world's population is doomed anyway according to this theology, no matter how good a life a non christian leads and no matter how bad a life a Christian leads, as long as the Christian repents.

Actually according to the Bible there will be a multitude coming to salvation during the tribulation period.

The ultimate, get out of jail free card, which is absent any level of compassion; we are special and you aren't, because you disagree with us.

We all lack the perfection of sinlessness, we are all in the same boat, the only difference is you refuse to accept Christ's death to take yours away. It is your choice....you heard the gospel and deny it is truth.

Bankrupt morality IMO.

Without God morality doesn't have a standard anyway so your opinion on morality is only that an opinion.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You guys need to take this to the forum that this belongs in. It is going to end up getting this thread deleted.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Life is a gift, for everyone. If a life was given, it is suppose to be cherished. So killing children for any purpose goes against our theology.

Please try to stay on point.
I'm not commenting on wheter or not it is the right thing to do to kill children.

I'm saying that if the idea is that children go straight to heaven after they die - no questions asked - , then is it not a factual response to say that killing children is the equivalent of ensuring the eternal salvation of these children?

It's a yes or no question....

 

[Oncedeceived]

Please try to stay on point.
I'm not commenting on wheter or not it is the right thing to do to kill children.

I'm saying that if the idea is that children go straight to heaven after they die - no questions asked - , then is it not a factual response to say that killing children is the equivalent of ensuring the eternal salvation of these children?

It's a yes or no question....

Lets try to stay on point and not go off onto a tangent of general apologetics. It is going to get the thread closed.

 

[AV1611VET]

Here's another one. They are very sad stories

Are you suggesting we should normalize that activity; or are you saying they are doing that in spite of the Bible ... not with respect to It?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't believe I said that.

You implied it.

First you declared that we "may not understand it", yet we can be "assured it is the case".

How can we be assured about things if we can't understand those things?
If not by "just believing" it?

How does it contradict what I said earlier?

Because you first seemed to imply that god did NOT create parasites and alike, but that those things rather were a side-effect from the biological system he installed (evolution)?

Now, you're saying that he DID create viruses and parasites.

But again, feel free to clarify your position. Cause as I said, I'm completely unclear what your actual position is here. You seem to be saying one thing in one post and another thing in the next...

Oh, I don't know only works in your worldview. I see.

I see you completely ignored the final part of my post. Why?
I thought that was the most important bit.

You implied that god had no control over the development of parasites etc. But i'll assume that you DO believe he had control over the development of humans?

So, what's that about?
Or do you reject evolution again, this time around?

As I said, I can never follow what your position actually is.

 

[bhsmte]

You implied it.

First you declared that we "may not understand it", yet we can be "assured it is the case".

How can we be assured about things if we can't understand those things?
If not by "just believing" it?



Because you first seemed to imply that god did NOT create parasites and alike, but that those things rather were a side-effect from the biological system he installed (evolution)?

Now, you're saying that he DID create viruses and parasites.

But again, feel free to clarify your position. Cause as I said, I'm completely unclear what your actual position is here. You seem to be saying one thing in one post and another thing in the next...



I see you completely ignored the final part of my post. Why?
I thought that was the most important bit.

You implied that god had no control over the development of parasites etc. But i'll assume that you DO believe he had control over the development of humans?

So, what's that about?
Or do you reject evolution again, this time around?

As I said, I can never follow what your position actually is.

All part of the psychological gymnastics:

Something good = we understand it is from God.

Something bad = we can't really understand it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Would you kill your child if they were suffering from a horrendous incurable disease? IF they were suffering and in pain, would you kill them?

If there was absolutely no positive outcome possible (so terminal) and if it will only get worse over time and if the pain is absolutely insufferable....

Yes, I would definatly sign the euthanasia papers if my child tells me he no longer wishes to live to escape the pain.

I could not live with myself knowing that I am the only thing between the end to his suffering and another couple of months/years of pure torment every second of every day after which death is the inevitable result anyway.

Life sucks sometimes. You can either man up and deal with it or live in a fantasy world and pretend everything will be okay.

I prefer to man up and look life in the eye.

 

[DogmaHunter]

We all lack the perfection of sinlessness, we are all in the same boat, the only difference is you refuse to accept Christ's death to take yours away. It is your choice....you heard the gospel and deny it is truth.

You heared the message of Mohammed and deny it is truth.
Therefor, you will burn in the lake of fire.

Without God morality doesn't have a standard anyway so your opinion on morality is only that an opinion.

Yep. And my morality is vastly superior to the morals found in the bible.

 

[Oncedeceived]

If you want to discuss such topics move it to where it belongs and stop posting this stuff in here.

 

[DogmaHunter]

If you want to discuss such topics move it to where it belongs and stop posting this stuff in here.

Ok.

Now, please reply to the post about the creation and/or evolution of parasites, dangerous bacteria, viruses, etc.
I hope you can clear up a few things concerning your position on the matter.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Ok.

Now, please reply to the post about the creation and/or evolution of parasites, dangerous bacteria, viruses, etc.
I hope you can clear up a few things concerning your position on the matter.

Ok. That fits here. What are you asking me? What about parasites, bacteria, viruses...etc?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Ok. That fits here. What are you asking me? What about parasites, bacteria, viruses...etc?

Read the post.

You implied that god had no control over the development of dangerous bacteria, viruses, parasites...
But I assume you do believe he had control over the development of humans.

That seems contradictory.
If he can steer evolution to produce humans, he can also steer evolution to not produce worms that eat your eyeballs from the inside out.

Also, as a side note:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/dead-children-go-straight-to-heaven.7902963/