Evolution doesn't matter anymore.

[ViaCrucis]

Oh, I get it, we don't have souls.

That's an odd jump to make. Though, you're not altogether wrong. We don't have souls. At least not according to Scripture and orthodox Christian teaching. The idea that we "have a soul", as some sort of ghost floating around inside our bodies, or as something that constitutes the "real self" apart from the body is non-biblical and unorthodox.

It is, at its best, a form of Platonism.
And at its worst, a form of Gnosticism.

We aren't souls with a body. We are bodies with a soul--the breath of life, the spark of reason. It describes the fact that we aren't merely inanimate lumps of matter, but that we are living, breathing, thinking, worshiping creatures.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[klutedavid]

Yes, evolution is the only answer for people who reject God. Yet evolution is utterly implausible. When an ape taps me on the shoulder and asks me, "Am I my keeper's brother?" I may change my mind.

Tap, tap, are you your bother's keeper?

 

[pittsburghjoe]

What allows sin to happen? It will be qualities of this fallen reality.

• physical history
• physical uniqueness
• decoherence
• locality, your own time
• atomic bonds
• possible to kill
• self pleasure
• disorder, entropy, heat
• animal instincts
• scalar volumes
• knowledge of evil ..being able to tell the difference between good and evil

Ego, Pride, Greed, Lust, Vanity, Wrath

 

[rom8:38]

First I would say that your very first assumption that the earth is 7000 years old / and or that was when Adam showed up is debatable. (2 Pt. 3:8). Adam was born with a soul. Was there history before that? Of course. You had the primal explosion (Let their be light), which is when time began, the coalescence of matter, stabilization of weather patterns, evolution of plants / and animals along distinct species, (all of which occurred over billions of years), and the rise and fall of civilizations for at least 50,000 years. That was all history - even before Adam, as universal changes occurred; and there is no change without time. It is fun to postulate, but there is so much we don't know. What we do know is that history is vast in measure, and took place before and with humankind. God bless.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

You're not considering when this fallen condition started. Everything changed.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Tap, tap, are you your bother's keeper?

That would be my friend's dog. I'm looking after him while she is in hospital. It's a bother alright. I can't stand up without him pestering me for food.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What allows sin to happen?

The misuse of human freedom and somewhat paradoxically therefore the bondage of the human will. The "freedom" to abuse God's gifts is, at the same time, the chains of slavery and bondage. And thus the freedom that comes from Christ is the forgiveness of sins, the unshackling of man to death in the hope of the resurrection, and restored communion to God both now through faith and in the future resurrection and renewal of all things.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

The misuse of human freedom and somewhat paradoxically therefore the bondage of the human will. The "freedom" to abuse God's gifts is, at the same time, the chains of slavery and bondage. And thus the freedom that comes from Christ is the forgiveness of sins, the unshackling of man to death in the hope of the resurrection, and restored communion to God both now through faith and in the future resurrection and renewal of all things.

-CryptoLutheran

You are missing the point. Sin won't be possible in Heaven, that means it isn't going to be like what we experience right now. Satan had a claim on everyone here until Jesus. He had that claim because he runs this place. He stared the disorder in God's Kingdom that made sins possible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are missing the point. Sin won't be possible in Heaven, that means it isn't going to be like what we experience right now. Satan had a claim on everyone here until Jesus. He had that claim because he runs this place. He stared the disorder in God's Kingdom that made sins possible.

The point is that you are wrong.

You are preaching Manichaeism, not Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

The point is that you are wrong.

You are preaching Manichaeism, not Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

There isn't going to be a duality when this place is done. Are you saying we didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? That is for this fallen reality only. So, no, I'm not preaching Manichaeism.

You are kidding yourself if you think sins will be possible in Heaven.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Yes, evolution is the only answer for people who reject God. Yet evolution is utterly implausible. When an ape taps me on the shoulder and asks me, "Am I my keeper's brother?" I may change my mind.

They can do that already if you understand sign language

Is your mind changed?

 

[coffee4u]

The Earth wasn't fallen to humans until original sin. That means it didn't have physical history until that point. Then it had a history ..one that didn't actually happen.

The earth did have a physical history before Adam sinned. God created it and called it very good. It wasn't very good by man made standards but very good by God's standards.
It was a very short history, perhaps only 1 day long, but it was a history.
Only the properties of the earth were vastly different before the fall to after the fall. Just as they were before the flood to after the flood. 3 changes. It will stay how it is until God destroys it by fire and remakes it yet again into the forth version, the New Earth.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

What allows us to be compatible with God?

• Ten Commandments
• Love, Entanglement
• Avoiding sin ..disorder, to not be reliant of this fallen place for happiness.
• Doing good acts
• Letting God work through us
• Orderly quantum coherence, Vector field

 

[TJB]

What allows us to be compatible with God?

• Ten Commandments
• Love, Entanglement
• Avoiding sin ..disorder, to not be reliant of this fallen place for happiness.
• Doing good acts
• Letting God work through us
• Orderly quantum coherence, Vector field

Agreed with the first five - intruiged by the sixth I will go and look it up - is it a variation of the 'cosmological constants' argument?

Can I add a few more bullet points of things that might make us compatible with God

• Seeing faith and reason as being different but equally important paths to God
• Maybe the idea that evolution and creation dont have to be mutually inconclusive
• That earth the planet is 4.5 billion years old, and that early modern human life may have started 400,000 years ago - but we can still find Genesis a foundational and inspired piece of scripture
• Even accepting all of that, people of a reasonable faith and scientists who are humble about what they know can learn a lot from each other

 

[pittsburghjoe]

As far as the age of the Earth ..did you read my explanation in this thread?

The sixth argument goes like this:

Imagine you're God, you have infinity to do whatever. You decide you want people that can think for themselves to be in your existence (free will). The only problem is that they can't be corrupted or it screws with your system.
God is perfect order, coherence.
Sin is disorder, decoherence.
God needs us to be orderly to be entangled with him.
You need coherent waves to quantum entangle.

Disorder is our knowledge of good and evil.

 

[TJB]

As far as the age of the Earth ..did you read my explanation in this thread?

Yes, ...... Sidestep

The father of Geology, when we actually started to date life, was actually a Bishop and therefore a very committed Christian.

I am interested in your theory about entanglement - it reminds me a bit of JRR Tolkiens creation narrative in the Simarillion.... are you interested?

 

[pittsburghjoe]

I'd read it but I think I really have something here.

Waves do not have a history until they are collapsed. Original Sin is the first collapse.

Radioactive particles used in the double slit will not decay in flight. There won't be multiple registers on the final panel. That means matter waves do not age. Physical history is for Decoherent Locality ..wave collapse ..this fallen condition. History was assigned to Adam and Eve that didn't actually happen to them.

To be one with God we need to be matter waves.
Jesus was "made to be sin" to die for our sins. This place IS sin.

This fallen place allows sin. You need wave collapse and history to do that.

Do you want the history of Adam being in the Garden injected into Wave collapse? Well, that's not how it works. We get evolution instead.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What allows us to be compatible with God?

• Ten Commandments
• Love, Entanglement
• Avoiding sin ..disorder, to not be reliant of this fallen place for happiness.
• Doing good acts
• Letting God work through us
• Orderly quantum coherence, Vector field

None of the above.

The answer is Jesus Christ, who by His death and resurrection reconciles us to God, and by God's grace we are made new in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Original Sin caused us to join the present state ..the now. Fallen angels were already here. Satan started it with disorder. But I don't think there was a physical history until humans joined. Time here is a slideshow of present states. An infinite sum of waves collapsing each frame.
Time Dilation and Gravity is the amount of wave collapse in a scalar volume per frame.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Original Sin caused us to join the present state ..the now.

Nope.

Original sin brought sin and death into the good universe of God, and we now currently labor under it on account of our received concupiscence. But it did not change the fact that this universe is God's good creation. The flesh that hangs off your bones is good, God made it, and He called it good.

Fallen angels were already here.

Pure speculation, at best. You have nothing to base this on.

Satan started it.

Heresy.

But I don't think there was a physical history until humans joined.

Heresy.

Time here is a slideshow of present states. An infinite sum of waves collapsing each frame.
Time Dilation and Gravity is the amount of wave collapse in a scalar volume per frame.

Meaningless word salad.

-CryptoLutheran