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Evolution and the myth of "scientific consensus"

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sfs

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Pointed out incorrectly, sure. I'd like to see you try to prove that claim with any history book?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi's_interaction

"proposed by Enrico Fermi in 1933."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Libby

"was an American physical chemist noted for his role in the 1949 development of radiocarbon dating."

"Radiometric dating has been carried out since 1905 when it was invented by Ernest Rutherford as a method by which one might determine the age of the Earth." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

(Note: I meant Fermi above, not Pauli. I didn't get much sleep last night.)
 
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sfs

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So let's talk about those cosmic rays (high energy radiation) and C14 production and a theory that is no longer valid at those energies? Shall we????
No. Let's talk about the fact that C14 is produced in the atmosphere, regardless of the theory explaining the production, and that that's the only thing needed to carry out C14 dating.
 
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RickG

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That's right - it took parity violation and the working out of the electroweak theory which is the detailed model (or more complete one) which fit the observations.

Oh it most certainly IS WRONG and always has been. It seems only you are the one making unsubstantiated claims unsupported by the electroweak theory or the Standard Model of Physics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi's_interaction

"Fermi's four-fermion theory describes the weak interaction remarkably well. Unfortunately, the calculated cross-section grows as the square of the energy
15fa28cb3101588970ef2aa1a7d73122.png
, making it unlikely that the theory is valid at energies much higher than about 100 GeV. The solution is to replace the four-fermion contact interaction by a more complete theory (UV completion)—an exchange of a W or Z boson as explained in the electroweak theory.

In the original theory, Fermi assumed that the form of interaction is a contact coupling of two vector currents. Subsequently, it was pointed out by Lee and Yang that nothing prevented the appearance of an axial, parity violating current, and this was confirmed by experiments carried out by Chien-Shiung Wu.


Fermi's interaction showing the 4-point fermion vector current, coupled under Fermi's Coupling Constant GF. Fermi's Theory was the first theoretical effort in describing nuclear decay rates for Beta-Decay.
The inclusion of parity violation in Fermi's interaction was done by George Gamow and Edward Teller in the so-called Gamow-Teller Transitions which described Fermi's interaction in terms of Parity violating "allowed" decays and Parity conserving "superallowed" decays in terms of anti-parallel and parallel electron and neutrino spin states respectively. Before the advent of the electroweak theory and the Standard Model, George Sudarshan and Robert Marshak, and also independently Richard Feynman and Murray Gell-Mann, were able to determine the correct tensor structure (vector minus axial vector, VA) of the four-fermion interaction."

Again, Fermis electro weak theory was not wrong. The problem was he could not explain what was observed. And his beta decay theory is not the same as the weak force theory. Also, yes it has been updated and is now well understood. Also, radiocarbon dating was not the first radiometric dating method. Arthur Holmes was the first I am aware of to use and describe radiometric dating in 1915. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016787815800327.
 
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RickG

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You don't put the sample aside: you detect the decays in it as they occur. At least that's true for decays relevant to dating.
Actually they do for the purpose of establishing and monitoring decay rates. There is also an established commission that monitors this and updates decay rates as measurements become more and more accurate.
http://image.sciencenet.cn/olddata/kexue.com.cn/upload/blog/file/2010/6/201062411463431487.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/001670377790206X
 
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RickG

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So let's talk about those cosmic rays (high energy radiation) and C14 production and a theory that is no longer valid at those energies? Shall we????
I'll be happy to, care to do it in a formal debate that has a moderator?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Then why are the quotes even relevant?
Why would you quote a biologists to make a point which is the exact opposite of the point in the quote?

What purpose did these quotes serve in your arguments?
Why are they important for your argument, considering they state the opposite of what you state?
It seems this creates a real problem for you. The reason for using someone who holds the opposite position of one you hold is to show that the premise behind the differing view is real and is evidence. The premise is the appearance of design is real and is in evidence. This shows that even those who oppose your position or view have evidence for the views they hold but the interpretation of that evidence is where the difference lies and not with the evidence its self.

There is evidence of design in life forms. There are only two interpretations of that evidence. The appearance of design is due to actual design or it is an illusion that some say arises from natural occurring phenomena that provides the evidence of design. Both share common evidence...life forms appear designed for a purpose.

The evidence is for life forms appearing designed for a purpose, that is the evidence, if it is not designed for a purpose as the evidence shows then it is up to those who claim the evidence is not actually life forms being designed for a purpose but that evidence is explained better by natural phenomena producing an appearance of design rather than actual design.

The burden is on those who must explain why life forms that have purposeful design are just products of natural phenomena that produce an illusion of this design with purpose. That burden many feel has not been met. There is no evidence specifically given for the counter claim of illusion and only a general broad statement "that evolution is true so evolution must explain the evidence" by claiming it is an illusion. "Evolution did it" is not a scientific answer if it can't be shown to be true. If one holds to a materialistic view it is imperative that a materialistic answer should be presented to explain this claim.

No, it's not.
It's an appeal to expertise. Note: expertise. Not authority.
There's nothing wrong with an appeal to expertise.

But you are because there are those that also have the expertise that are not in agreement with Dawkins and Crick. It has been noted on this forum that the majority of Biologists are unbelievers. If the majority of biologists in the scientific arena share a worldview that is materialistic in their positions it is an appeal ad populum because there are those who disagree who hold the same expertise in their area of science. Here are those who hold that the design is actual and not an illusion with the same expertise:

Gregor Mendel:
When... the biologist is confronted with the fact that in the organism the parts are so adapted to each other as to give rise to a harmonious whole; and that the organisms are endowed with structures and instincts calculated to prolong their life and perpetuate their race, doubts as to the adequacy of a purely physiochemical viewpoint in biology may arise. The difficulties besetting the biologist in this problem have been rather increased than diminished by the discovery of Mendelian heredity, according to which each character is transmitted independently of any other character. Since the number of Mendelian characters in each organism is large, the possibility must be faced that the organism is merely a mosaic of independent hereditary characters. If this be the case the question arises: What moulds these independent characters into a harmonious whole? The vitalist settles this question by assuming the existence of a pre-established design for each organism and of a guiding 'force' or 'principle' which directs the working out of this design. Such assumptions remove the problem of accounting for the harmonious character of the organism from the field of physics or chemistry. The theory of natural selection invokes neither design nor purpose, but it is incomplete since it disregards the physiochemical constitution of living matter about which little was known until recently.

Michael Behe:
“The conclusion of intelligent design flows naturally from the data itself—not from sacred books or sectarian beliefs. Inferring that biochemical systems were designed by an intelligent agent is a humdrum process that requires no new principles of logic or science. It comes simply from the hard work that biochemistry has done over the past forty years, combined with consideration of the way in which we reach conclusions of design every day.”
Michael J. Behe, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution

No. Science is a method to study phenomena in an attempt to explain them.
Yes.
The only reason why the supernatural is not put forward as a possibility in science is because it can't be shown to be a possibility, let alone a plausibility.

If it is apparent in life forms and in the fine tuning of the universe for life to exist at all, the plausibility is very straight forward and evident. To claim it can't be shown as a possibility is a personal bias not based on the evidence, as the evidence supports design.

The supernatural is ignored because of how it is defined. The way it is defined, it is unfalsifiable, untestable.
Explain how the claims that Dawkins makes about how evolution is the falsifiable or testable?

Untestable, unfalsifiable claims are a waste of time. Always - not just in science.
They are infinit in number. By very definition, one can NOT differentiate truth from fiction when the claim is unfalsifiable / untestable.

If evolution did it is a general explanation for everything including the illusion of design, how is that testable or falsifiable?

This means that there is no rational justification to accept the claim in question.
Which is exactly why I don't buy into Dawkins and his claim that the evidence of design with purpose in life forms is due to "evolution" which he gives no real evidence but just a broad general evolution did it proclamation.

The fact that it is irrational to accept unfalsifiable claims has nothing to do with worldviews and everything with rational reason and logic.

Dawkins cloaks himself with science and proclaims evolution is true so it must all be an illusion created by evolution. The science is not provided that supports that view. Reason and logic tell us that the evidence is exactly what it is and that is the life forms on earth are actually designed for a purpose. If one doubts that evidence it is their burden to prove that the evidence is not as it seems and give scientific evidence for why that is the case.

Also, to hint that Dawkins' view on biology is somehow related to him not believing in bronze-age religions is kind of juvenile. And pretty ignorant considering there are many, many theists who have no qualms with mainstream biology at all. Plenty of them are on this forum as well.
His view on biology is based on his expertise in the subject and his personal bias towards religion and Christianity in particular. The evidence of the biology is that life forms appear to be designed with a purpose. The denial of the evidence comes from his bias.


The projection is hilarious.
Nothing about Dawkins' worldview excludes the possibility that life was designed by, for example, extra terrestials.
Now you are really misrepresenting Dawkins. He has made it clear that he is totally against design by God...any god but specifically the Christian God and that he doesn't believe in alien seeding but that he would accept that more readily than God.
However, YOUR (dogmatic, faith-based) worldview DOES exclude the possibility that the appearance of design is exactly that: mere appearance, but not actual.
You are so blinded by your own dogmatic worldview that you can not even consider the possibility that the appearance of design is exactly as it appears and is the evidence of design. This is as much a faith-based position as you claim mine is but the evidence is on my side. We see design of purpose in all living things on earth and in the fine tuning of the universe as well. The fact that you hold a materialistic worldview will not allow you to consider the possibility that the evidence is what it is...evidence of design.

Is this refering to the incredibly dishonest "interview" from Ben Stein in his "documentary" Expelled?

If it is, I can only laugh.
If it's not, please provide a bit more info.

It was and it is the reason I know you were misrepresenting Dawkins from your comment above. He was answering about the evidence of design and he said he knew he was being led to admit to God being the possible cause and so he put out there that alien seeding was more acceptable but that he didn't really believe that theory.



See? Exactly as I said.
You TUNE OUT when they actually explain it.
You pretend as if their quotes and ideas support your point, but they do the opposite.
Exactly, they don't support my position that the design they admit they see is actual design. The evidence is evidence, the claim that it is an illusion is not supported by any evidence but is there determination based on their atheistic and materialistic worldview, just as is yours. Yet the evidence supports the exact opposite of what you, Dawkins, and Crick claim.

No... again with the misrepresentation...
It's not "their" conclusion. It's the conclusion of the field of biology. You know, like....... evolution theory. You get that scientific theories are explanations, right?
That's what evolution does... it explains why life looks the way it does.
No evolution explains how life adapts and changes by mutations and environmental pressures. It does not explain why these changes should give the appearance of design. In fact, it should show no appearance of design at all. It should show no reason or purpose behind the mechanisms of life. A mindless process without any planning or goals should hold to that appearance rather than appear like it was produced by an intelligent agent with a plan and purpose for life forms. IF evolution alone was true, evolution should predict that life forms would show no evidence that appears designed at all.
It's not something Dawkins "believes" like you believe in your religion.
It's just science...
You are fooling yourself and trying to fool others.

Again: evolution theory. Science. No "personal beliefs", no "worldviews", no "doctrines", no "faith". Just... science. Biology.
That is your opinion based on your own worldview and personal beliefs. The Biology evidence supports design. Life forms appear to be designed for a purpose...that is the biology of the issue...that is an illusion is not based on any evidence and is determined not by science but opinion of those making that claim.

Evolution is questioned all the time - just like every other theory. But not in the way you are pretending here.
I am not pretending anything and I am basing my position on the evidence present in the Biology of the life forms on earth. You on the other hand are denying the evidence and believe others who make up stories to explain it.

Then what is the purpose of quoting Dawkins, who's quotes state the opposite of what you argue for?
See above.

I said that you imply that the quotes support your position. I didn't say they you implied that Dawkins himself supports your position.

I'm talking about the statements. You abuse the statements by implying that stating that there is an appearance of design supports the idea that there is actual design.
The evidence states design, it is admitted even by those who do not chose to believe that it is actual design. See above.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Every time when you imply that the "appearance of design" supports the idea of "actual design".

Every time you do that, you ignore the explanation (known as Evolution Theory) of why things appear to be designed for the niche they live in.

Evolution explains why this is so. You ignore it.



It's called evolution theory.
Evolution theory explains the "designs" of species.
The evidence for evolution theory is overwhelming.

Ignoring it, doesn't make it go away.

There has been no evidence given to show that the evidence that life appears to be designed with purpose is only an illusion. If you have evidence of such present it.
 
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sfs

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RickG

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The premise is the appearance of design is real and is in evidence.
I agree the appearance of design may be perceived as real. This however, is nothing more than the opinion of the observer. What is lacking is the evidence of "a" "designer". As I tried before, I begin with the basic instruments that govern design. Those instruments are purely and physically identifiable as being natural processes governed by the physical laws of chemistry. What I do not see is a mechanism describing, attributing, and quantifying any physical evidence by means of a non-natural process, much less a designer. That is why intelligent design fails as a scientific hypothesis. The hypothesis can't even be tested.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Here is what I stated in to DogmaHunter in post #1388:

That's an excellent description of what the scientific community views as "intellectual dishonesty".​

That is about as general as it can possibly get. I made no reference to you or anyone whatsoever, only the process DogmaHunter described. I even went on in post #1393 describing the process in further detail.
So you comment on the issue that was resolved and totally ignore the major part of my post to you that I feel shows that you were being rather unfair in your appraisal of my discussion with you. Nice.
 
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bhsmte

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I agree the appearance of design may be perceived as real. This however, is nothing more than the opinion of the observer. What is lacking is the evidence of "a" "designer". As I tried before, I begin with the basic instruments that govern design. Those instruments are purely and physically identifiable as being natural processes governed by the physical laws of chemistry. What I do not see is a mechanism describing, attributing, and quantifying any physical evidence by means of a non-natural process, much less a designer. That is why intelligent design fails as a scientific hypothesis. The hypothesis can't even be tested.

Which is why it is a faith belief.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I agree the appearance of design may be perceived as real.
Why do you think it is perceived as real?

This however, is nothing more than the opinion of the observer.
What is based on the opinion of the observer?

What is lacking is the evidence of "a" "designer".
The evidence for a designer is that the thing in question appearing as if it were designed...wouldn't that be rather reasonable?
As I tried before, I begin with the basic instruments that govern design. Those instruments are purely and physically identifiable as being natural processes governed by the physical laws of chemistry. What I do not see is a mechanism describing, attributing, and quantifying any physical evidence by means of a non-natural process, much less a designer.
Your argument rather becomes illogical when one puts those instruments that are purely and physically identifiable as being natural due to the laws of chemistry. You conclude it seems to me that due to these life forms having a makeup of atoms, molecules and the like can not be designed as we know those things are inanimate but we know that a chair has a chemical makeup and it is designed. Millions of things come under this inanimate makeup that are designed.

That is why intelligent design fails as a scientific hypothesis. The hypothesis can't even be tested.

If life forms are designed by an intelligent agent they should appear as if they were designed. Design predicts that if life forms were designed they should appear that they were and that purpose and planning were used. That is what we find in life forms. Science tested this and found it to be true.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Which is why it is a faith belief.
The evidence of life forms appearing to be designed for a purpose is not faith based but scientifically proven. It is a faith based belief to deny this is evidence of design and to claim it is an illusion.
 
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The Cadet

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Here are those who hold that the design is actual and not an illusion with the same expertise:

Gregor Mendel:

Gregor Mendel lived over 130 years ago, and while Darwin was a contemporary I have no idea if this quote you posted was made prior to this landmark discovery, and I sincerely doubt it was made before this discovery really made waves within the scientific community.

Michael Behe:
“The conclusion of intelligent design flows naturally from the data itself—not from sacred books or sectarian beliefs. Inferring that biochemical systems were designed by an intelligent agent is a humdrum process that requires no new principles of logic or science. It comes simply from the hard work that biochemistry has done over the past forty years, combined with consideration of the way in which we reach conclusions of design every day.”
Michael J. Behe, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution

Behe is an expert on biology in the same way that Peter Duesburg is an expert on viruses. He staunchly runs against the mainstream, and his ideas have been completely rejected as a combination of baseless, unfalsifiable, and downright wrong. He's also one of the only actual biologists in the intelligent design movement. I wonder why?
 
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The Cadet

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The evidence of life forms appearing to be designed for a purpose is not faith based but scientifically proven.
Okay. Please cite the primary peer-reviewed literature that establishes that life forms have been designed for a purpose, and establishes what that purpose is.
 
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bhsmte

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Gregor Mendel lived over 130 years ago, and while Darwin was a contemporary I have no idea if this quote you posted was made prior to this landmark discovery, and I sincerely doubt it was made before this discovery really made waves within the scientific community.



Behe is an expert on biology in the same way that Peter Duesburg is an expert on viruses. He staunchly runs against the mainstream, and his ideas have been completely rejected as a combination of baseless, unfalsifiable, and downright wrong. He's also one of the only actual biologists in the intelligent design movement. I wonder why?

Behe admitted that if ID was considered science, then astrology would also be considered science. This happened under oath and on the witness stand.

The fact that ID can not be defined, or tested for in any way that is falsifiable, makes it a faith belief, not a scientific belief.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Gregor Mendel lived over 130 years ago, and while Darwin was a contemporary I have no idea if this quote you posted was made prior to this landmark discovery, and I sincerely doubt it was made before this discovery really made waves within the scientific community.

I apologize, when going to look up the date on this quote I found it was made by Jacques Loeb in 1916. So it was not by Mendel but about Mendel. What do you mean by prior to this landmark discovery?



Behe is an expert on biology in the same way that Peter Duesburg is an expert on viruses. He staunchly runs against the mainstream, and his ideas have been completely rejected as a combination of baseless, unfalsifiable, and downright wrong. He's also one of the only actual biologists in the intelligent design movement. I wonder why?

This sounds like the same thing that was said of Galileo. :) He has not been prove downright wrong either. There are those who feel his view on the Bacterial Flagellum were incorrect, there is no way to show who is actually correct.

Biologists and in fact most of science in the recent past were as a majority unbelivers...
 
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Oncedeceived

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Behe admitted that if ID was considered science, then astrology would also be considered science. This happened under oath and on the witness stand.

The fact that ID can not be defined, or tested for in any way that is falsifiable, makes it a faith belief, not a scientific belief.
You are misrepresenting what he said. He said at one time astrology was considered science.
 
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RickG

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Why do you think it is perceived as real?
Confirmation bias.

What is based on the opinion of the observer?
Confirmation bias.


The evidence for a designer is that the thing in question appearing as if it were designed...wouldn't that be rather reasonable?
That is confirmation bias with zero empirical evidence.

Your argument rather becomes illogical when one puts those instruments that are purely and physically identifiable as being natural due to the laws of chemistry.
Quite the opposite. It is completely logical when all of that can be shown to be due to natural causes.
You conclude it seems to me that due to these life forms having a makeup of atoms, molecules and the like can not be designed as we know those things are inanimate but we know that a chair has a chemical makeup and it is designed. Millions of things come under this inanimate makeup that are designed.
No, I'm not saying they cannot be designed. I'm saying that there is no empirical evidence for a non-natural design mechanism, nothing more.

If life forms are designed by an intelligent agent they should appear as if they were designed.
Absolutely, I agree. The trouble is we cannot physically connect them to an intelligent agent.

Design predicts that if life forms were designed they should appear that they were and that purpose and planning were used.
What is "Design predicts", and how can it be confirmed that it predicted something? Are you using "design" and "designer" interchangeably" as a single physical entity?
[/quote]That is what we find in life forms. Science tested this and found it to be true.[/QUOTE]
Science can show design and attribute it to natural physical process. It cannot attribute it to a designer it cannot observe.
 
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