Evolution and the myth of "scientific consensus"

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lifepsyop

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One of the evolutionist's favorite tactics is to immediately appeal to a "scientific consensus" that Evolution theory is beyond all reasonable doubt. If the vast majority of scientists accept Evolution theory (or more accurately, do not publicly oppose it) then it simply must be true. This reasoning is absurd on its face to any sophisticated reader, but lets demonstrate that it is false.

First, think about how many popular-science presentations you've watched where you've been matter-of-factly assured that the Big Bang really happened and is beyond reasonable doubt. It is casually stated as if it were as clear as the sky is blue. Audiences are never given the slightest hint that anyone with relevant expertise questions whether or not the Big Bang really happened.

Next, have a quick read through the following publication. (some technical jargon snipped)

An Open Letter to the Scientific Community
(Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004)
http://homepages.xnet.co.nz/~hardy/cosmologystatement.html

"The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed-- inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory.

But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors.
Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation...


...What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory's supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centered cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles...

...Supporters of the big bang theory may retort that these theories do not explain every cosmological observation. But that is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined. An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences. Whereas Richard Feynman could say that "science is the culture of doubt", in cosmology today doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding.

Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang. So discordant data on red shifts, lithium and helium abundances, and galaxy distribution, among other topics, are ignored or ridiculed. This reflects a growing dogmatic mindset that is alien to the spirit of free scientific inquiry.

Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory..."
----------------------------

(Now, 'consensus defenders' would love to say these are just a few cranks making this noise, but that is not true. Have a look through the signees and you will find highly credentialed astronomers and physicists, and a great number of credentialed scientists in general.)

However, this thread is not about debating the Big Bang theory. It is to shed light on the reality of "consensus" and the nature of the academic world in general.

Notice what is being expressed in the letter above, that a dominating theory is so entrenched, that scientists do not feel comfortable openly questioning it. Not because of the strength of evidence for the theory - (as stated they have sound scientific reasons for calling it into question) but because the theory is being protected ideologically. It is protected from question because so many parties are invested in it.

(Again, recall all of those popular science broadcasts where some 'science-spokesman' like Carl Sagan or Neil DeGrasse Tyson tells you completely matter-of-factly how the Big bang occurred billions of years ago)

This paints quite a different picture than the mantras we hear day after day about how the consensus is based strictly on scientific merit, how scientists are eagerly waiting to have their theories disproved, how any young scientist who finds a hole in a reigning theory will be fast-tracked to a Nobel prize, etc. etc. This is all simply a myth that is perpetuated to give the scientific community an aura of righteousness and selfless pursuit of truth. It is simply not true.

So, while I know this clarification will bounce off most consensus-worshipers like rubber, I hope it will contribute at least a little bit to chipping away that silly myth that is promoted all over the internet.

....

Now, some additional thoughts... think about the Theory of Evolution for a moment in this light... think about how many parties and institutions are invested in it. Think about what they stand to lose if Evolution theory is, not even disproven, but simply allowed to be openly questioned in a scientific setting. Think about how disastrous that would be for so many invested parties that have been telling the public for the last century that the theory is simply beyond question.

Evolution is their ultimate Creation Story - think about how much ideological power is in that.. being able to tell all of society where they originated from. Think of the culture that is been built around that ideology. The entire "science vs. religion" narrative.

It makes the ideological stakes for the Big Bang theory look paltry in comparison.

With this in mind, only the most blind and naive would believe that Evolution theory is maintained based strictly on its scientific merit. What utter nonsense.

Do you really think this level of ideological investment is not playing a role in maintaining the "consensus" and protecting the theory from question?

Do you really think the average young scientist trying to make a living feels comfortable openly questioning the theory, or even voicing the slightest hint of doubt?

Do you really think they're being honest and upfront with you about Evolution theory's weaknesses?
 

RickG

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Do you have any idea what "scientific consensus" is? It is not an appeal to authority which is commonly used in the creation science community. I would like to see your definition of a scientific consensus before I post what it actually is.
 
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lifepsyop

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Do you have any idea what "scientific consensus" is? It is not an appeal to authority which is commonly used in the creation science community. I would like to see your definition of a scientific consensus before I post what it actually is.

Please quote the part of the OP you are disputing so that we may avoid strawmen arguments.
 
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RickG

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Please quote the part of the OP you are disputing so that we may avoid strawmen arguments.

Why certainly!
"One of the evolutionist's favorite tactics is to immediately appeal to a "scientific consensus" that Evolution theory is beyond all reasonable doubt. If the vast majority of scientists accept Evolution theory (or more accurately, do not publicly oppose it) then it simply must be true. This reasoning is absurd on its face to any sophisticated reader, but lets demonstrate that it is false."
There is a critical aspect of what "scientific consensus" is that you did not include. Your description comes close but it is not precise, therefore a bit misleading.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Do you have any idea what "scientific consensus" is? It is not an appeal to authority which is commonly used in the creation science community. I would like to see your definition of a scientific consensus before I post what it actually is.

Scientific consensus: the belief the Milky-way was the entire universe, despite the fact the scientific consensus was wrong.

But shall we call that scientific consensus what it is? Belief and opinion?
 
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Jimmy D

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Now, some additional thoughts... think about the Theory of Evolution for a moment in this light... think about how many parties and institutions are invested in it. Think about what they stand to lose if Evolution theory is, not even disproven, but simply allowed to be openly questioned in a scientific setting. Think about how disastrous that would be for so many invested parties that have been telling the public for the last century that the theory is simply beyond question.

Evolution is their ultimate Creation Story - think about how much ideological power is in that.. being able to tell all of society where they originated from. Think of the culture that is been built around that ideology. The entire "science vs. religion" narrative.

It makes the ideological stakes for the Big Bang theory look paltry in comparison.

With this in mind, only the most blind and naive would believe that Evolution theory is maintained based strictly on its scientific merit.

So it's all a big conspiracy? I'm glad we can finally put this debate to bed. I always thought science was more concerned with observation and evidence than ideology but I stand corrected.

What utter nonsense.

Agreed
 
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RickG

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Scientific consensus: the belief the Milky-way was the entire universe, despite the fact the scientific consensus was wrong.

But shall we call that scientific consensus what it is? Belief and opinion?

And that would be your layman's opinion, which is quite erroneous. A scientific consensus occurs when the vast majority of published peer review literature supports a specific scientific aspect or theory. It has nothing to do with beliefs of individuals, or groups, whether scientists or the public.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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And that would be your layman's opinion, which is quite erroneous. A scientific consensus occurs when the vast majority of published peer review literature supports a specific scientific aspect or theory. It has nothing to do with beliefs of individuals, or groups, whether scientists or the public.

So now you are going to claim that the scientific community did not have peer reviewed material to support their belief the Milky-Way was the entire universe? Only AFTER Georges Lemaitre proposed expansion and the Big Bang, did the consensus slowly change. Before then scientists had supporting evidence to back up their incorrect beliefs - math and all.

Or are you claiming scientists make claims they asserted were fact without any seeming collaborating evidence? Not saying their interpretation of the evidence was correct - just that they "believed" their interpretation of the evidence was correct. Just as the "believe" their interpretation of the evidence is now correct. Yet theoretical models based upon this modern consensus belief of how the universe, galaxies and solar systems formed, have one and all failed to match reality when actual measurements are taken. Up close instead of far, far away where we can't measure anything. And might as well be in a galaxy far, far away too.
 
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lifepsyop

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Why certainly!
"One of the evolutionist's favorite tactics is to immediately appeal to a "scientific consensus" that Evolution theory is beyond all reasonable doubt. If the vast majority of scientists accept Evolution theory (or more accurately, do not publicly oppose it) then it simply must be true. This reasoning is absurd on its face to any sophisticated reader, but lets demonstrate that it is false."
There is a critical aspect of what "scientific consensus" is that you did not include. Your description comes close but it is not precise, therefore a bit misleading.

Did you have a point to make addressing the main thrust of the OP or did you just want to split hairs?
 
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RickG

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Did you have a point to make addressing the main thrust of the OP or did you just want to split hairs?

Yes, that your definition was not splitting hairs, your definition was not correct with respect to scientific consensus.
 
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lifepsyop

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Yes, that your definition was not splitting hairs, your definition was not correct with respect to scientific consensus.

Here is Wikipedia's definition.

Scientific consensus is the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study. Consensus implies general agreement, though not necessarily unanimity.

Would you like to continue trying to split hairs or address the main points of the OP?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Yes, that your definition was not splitting hairs, your definition was not correct with respect to scientific consensus.

Here is Wikipedia's definition.

Scientific consensus is the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study. Consensus implies general agreement, though not necessarily unanimity.

Would you like to continue trying to split hairs or address the main points of the OP?

"collective judgment, position, and opinion" "Consensus implies general agreement, though not necessarily unanimity" because consensus does not mean correct, which they fail to grasp. At every single point in the history of mankind, the prevailing consensus has been overturned and shown to be wrong. But now it is different and they are of course correct because the majority believes it :)
 
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RickG

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Here is Wikipedia's definition.

Scientific consensus is the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study. Consensus implies general agreement, though not necessarily unanimity.

From a scientific point of view, yes, splitting hairs is very important. I don't base what I post here on Wiki articles or what I can Google, rather actual experience in the scientific community.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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From a scientific point of view, yes, splitting hairs is very important. I don't base what I post here on Wiki articles or what I can Google, rather actual experience in the scientific community.

Ok fine, then define which experiences in the scientific community are you disputing with the OP? If you want to split hairs then split them and let's settle on whatever definition you choose is the correct one, ok? So give us this definition and we will go from there.

Your link, your source, your definition is fine with me.
 
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RickG

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Ok fine, then define which experiences in the scientific community are you disputing with the OP? If you want to split hairs then split them and let's settle on whatever definition you choose is the correct one, ok? So give us this definition and we will go from there.

Your link, your source, your definition is fine with me.
My only comments concerning the OP is to clarify what actual practicing scientists consider a scientific consensus, not that of the OP or Wiki. Scientific consensus is based on the majority of publish "mainstream" research that has stood the test of time, not ones opinion or the opinion of polls.

As for the OP, all it does is to demean and reject scientific consensus and provide no consensus of his own to support his position.
 
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JasonClark

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There is a very simple answer to anyone who does not accept evolution and that's to present evidence against it because so far everything we know points to it being true.
In the US evolution is only a problem because it conflicts with what some people would rather believe, they can not find anything to falsify evolution and they cant find anything to un-falsify their religion.

Fewer and fewer people are prepared to believe something just because someone says it's true, today people need a little more than just some one's say so.
"It's true believe me" will not cut it anymore.
 
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sfs

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I can't say I see the logic here. Yes, there is a scientific consensus that the Big Bang is a good model for the early universe, and yes, there is a scientific consensus that evolution (especially common descent) is a good model for the history of life. Yes, there exist scientists who disagree with the consensus in both fields. From this we can conclude . . . what, exactly? None of these facts tell us how likely a consensus is to be correct, nor do they address the important question: how much evidence is there in favor of the consensus?

Now it so happens that the consensus in favor of common descent is a good deal stronger than the consensus in favor of the Big Bang. I think it's unlikely that the Big Bang will be mostly rejected, but I can imagine it happening. I simply cannot imagine any alternative to common descent that would completely replace it and explain all of the same data.

(Note: if you're writing a manifesto in favor of alternative model of some kind of science and you're collecting signatures in support from "scientists and engineers", then yes, you're very likely a bunch of cranks. Consensus gets overthrown in science by convincing the experts in the field based on evidence, not by getting signatures from outsiders to the field.)
 
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lifepsyop

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My only comments concerning the OP is to clarify what actual practicing scientists consider a scientific consensus, not that of the OP or Wiki. Scientific consensus is based on the majority of publish "mainstream" research that has stood the test of time, not ones opinion or the opinion of polls.

And who interprets that published research in order to judge whether or not it supports a particular theory? Scientists.

In other words: Scientific consensus is the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study.

Thus RickG, you have corrected nothing with your attempted hair-splitting.
 
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RickG

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(Note: if you're writing a manifesto in favor of alternative model of some kind of science and you're collecting signatures in support from "scientists and engineers", then yes, you're very likely a bunch of cranks. Consensus gets overthrown in science by convincing the experts in the field based on evidence, not by getting signatures from outsiders to the field.)

:oldthumbsup:
 
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RickG

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And who interprets that published research in order to judge whether or not it supports a particular theory? Scientists.

In other words: Scientific consensus is the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study.

Thus RickG, you have corrected nothing with your attempted hair-splitting.
And so you have expressed you layman's opinion. Try spending over 25 years as a professional in the scientific community and maybe, just maybe, you might entertain a different opinion.
 
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