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Evidence for date of John's exile on Patmos

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jeffwhosoever, Mar 10, 2021.

  1. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    The thing with passing onto the next life, is that it's only hard for those who stay behind. Kind of like winning a trip to Disneyland and telling your wife she can't come cause you only have one ticket.
     
  2. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry for your loss.

    I believe this is a weak response. I don't buy this. Not only did Jesus say that no one but the Father knew the day or hour, but He also never said that He knew the approximate day or hour of His return.

    It's funny to me how preterists (full and partial) focus so much on Revelation 1:1-3 but seem to not be aware of the existence of Revelation 1:19. Yes, some of the things John wrote were things that would soon take place. Especially some of what he wrote to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. But, that is not all he was told to write.

    Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

    John was told to write about things which had already happened (for example, he wrote about some past events related to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 and he also referenced Christ's birth and ascension in Revelation 11). He also was told to write about things which were happening at the time, and he did write about things happening at the time or that would happen soon in relation to the churches in Asia. And he was also told to write about things that would occur from that point on. From that point on until when? 70 AD? No! Until the end of time when Christ returns, the judgment occurs and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.
     
  3. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Well-Known Member

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    You've got a gracious way with you bro. Very needed on Internet forums. :angel:

    Maybe not, but Im Amil. See next point.

    Sure, and I too would say that quite a lot of Revelation is future. Never-the-less, it is a symbolic book. In saying so, we interpret the symbol and find the literal application of that symbol. The Olivet discourse on the other hand, does not use symbols. Jesus just comes straight out with the facts. For example, "Heaven and earth will pass away." (Matt 24:35)

    A thousand times? Now there is a great example of figurative. ;) Nice one!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 4:04 PM
  4. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The book of Revelation undeniably contains a great deal of symbolism. Why do you equate symbolism with being meaningless? The truths that the symbolism symbolizes is far from meaningless.

    Also, a late date for the book of Revelation is strong evidence against preterism, but that doesn't mean it's strong evidence for futurism. I'm not sure why you seem to think that preterism and futurism are the only viable options. I think you should take more time to look into idealism and historicism as well. My view is kind of a combination of those, but I lean more towards idealism. It makes me cringe whenever I see people act as if futurism and preterism are the only possibilities to choose from.
     
  5. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Well-Known Member

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    This is the "Holy, Apostolic Internet forum." :holy:
     
  6. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you're saying is only plain to you. The gathering of the elect by the angels clearly did not occur in 70 AD. So, your understanding of "this generation" is clearly false.

    The difference is that these other passages you're referring to, such as 2 Peter 3:10, have clearly not yet occurred. The context of Revelation 3:3 is clearly different than a passage like 2 Peter 3:10-12. I truly have no idea why you can't recognize that.
     
  7. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What now? That doesn't make any sense. If you allow for the possibility that it's not talking about everything written in the book soon taking place, then what is the basis for concluding that 99% of it would soon take place? None. If it's not talking about all of it soon taking place, then the only thing you can conclude is that it's talking about some of it soon taking place without knowing how much would soon take place and how much would not.
     
  8. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Hm... I think you misunderstood what I was asking for, as your entire post seems to be focused on proving the format in which Revelation was written.

    I agree that Revelation is not a simple chronological book, and the style of writing used is what I would call progressive parallelism, that is essentially repeating the same story several times in progressively more or less detail in order to paint a clearer picture. As you put it, seeing the same scene from different camera angles.

    However I had asked you if you could give us an example of internal evidence that "overwhelmingly points to a late dating of Revelation" and I don't see how your explanation of the style of writing used in Revelation does that.

    Full disclosure, I stopped reading about a quarter of the way through your post because it's very long and it became clear what you were doing, which was not really providing an answer to my question, but if there is a golden nugget in that wall of words somewhere that actually proves (or suggests) a late dating, please highlight it for me.
     
  9. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. If I said to you, "Listen Jew. I'm about to tell you what I have to do this week" and I said "I have to go to Costo, return those boots and book my vacation. And by the way, next year I'm planning to go back to that Mexico resort I told you about", have I not told you what I have to do this week?
     
  10. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    It only "clearly did not occur", according to the way you understand it, but according to my understanding it clearly did occur.
     
  11. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Speaking of nonsense. So, does this mean what you're doing this week comprises 99% of what you're doing the rest of your life?
     
  12. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Clearly.
     
  13. Freedm

    Freedm Well-Known Member

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    Potentially.
     
  14. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Haha. Well, I'm glad we can have some fun with this even though we strongly disagree on some things.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I wasn’t aware there was a world wide persecution by Domitian to try those on the earth....

    10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
    Revelation 3:10
     
  16. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Do you realize the preeminent position of the Church for 500 years has been historic?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 12:24 AM
  17. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Supporter

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    Great point about the Lord. I'll get to the Olivet Discourse eventually though I've read some research on it already but I figure we'll finish up with Revelation then study it through and through using all the 3 Gospels in parallel that offer it.

    I enjoy our discussions as well due to your consideration and gentleness with your points of view. You win more points that way that all the fist-pounding and table slapping which never impresses me!
     
  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So only literal sheep and goats are separated and not human souls? Saying futurist cannot tell the difference is a weak argument.

    If you can only see Revelation as symbolic, you would never understand the literal implications. Are you sure you want to contrast Scripture solely on the basis of being literal or symbolic?
     
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Th Cross was the event where God came in judgment and switched who was in control of the vineyard literally. Why are you putting your faith and trust in the writings of Josephus?
     
  20. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Been here for 54 years.
     
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