Evidence for date of John's exile on Patmos

[Christian Gedge]

… so John was writing about a coming tribulation and not that event in AD 70, right?

That’s how I see it. I don’t ignore the significance of AD 70, but I see it as a precursor to a greater tribulation in the future.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This Accurately Sums up my belief about Irenaeus' statement and why I hold it.

I am in full agreement with this author's take:
The Ironclad Network: Irenaeus and the Date of Revelation

What Irenaeus Actually Said

Here is the oft-referenced quote from Irenaeus, the context of which is a discussion about the number and name of the Antichrist:

“Had there been any need for his name to be openly announced at the present time, it would have been stated by the one who saw the actual revelation. For it was seen not a long time back, but almost in my own lifetime, at the end of Domitian’s reign.” (Against Heresies, 5.30.3)

The phrase “it was seen” is translating a single Greek word: ἑωράθη. And this word is commonly taken to refer back to “the actual revelation” which had just been mentioned. Thus, Irenaeus would be stating that John saw his apocalyptic vision at the end of Domitian’s reign, and this would support the later date for Revelation (late-90s).

But what needs to be noted here is that ἑωράθη is a third-person singular verb, which means the subject can be either he, she, or it. So this particular verb in this particular form can just as easily be translated “he was seen.” And plenty of examples can be produced from Greek literature where the word ἑωράθη refers to a person who was seen rather than a thing or object. And just to belabor this point beyond what is necessary, here are a few of those examples:

“And he was seen (ἑωράθη) by practically all mankind. For there was no city of repute, and no nation, which he did not visit; and among all alike the same opinion of him prevailed — that they had seen no one more beautiful.” (Dio Chrysostom, Discourse 29, section 6)

“In the capture of the city, no Theban was seen (ἑωράθη) begging the Macedonians to spare his life, nor did they in ignoble fashion fall and cling to the knees of their conquerors.” (Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, 17.13.2)

“And when he came to the last hall, then he mounted a chariot, but sometimes he mounted a horse; but on foot he was never seen (οὐδέποτε ἑωράθη) outside of his palace.” (Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, 12.8)

The point to draw from this is that only the context can determine whether ἑωράθη is best translated as “it was seen” or “he was seen.” And that’s what needs to be kept in mind when we’re interpreting Irenaeus’s use of the word.

Personally, I think Irenaeus’s point makes better sense if ἑωράθη is translated “he was seen.” In that case, Irenaeus would be referring back to John himself and not to the revelation that John saw. A paraphrase might look like this: “If Christians had needed to know the precise name of the Antichrist, John could have easily made it clear, seeing as how he was seen (i.e. he was alive) until very recently, almost in our own day.”

And if ἑωράθη is actually referring back to John himself, rather than John’s apocalyptic vision, then this oft-referenced statement from Irenaeus does not support the later date of Revelation.

To frame the issue a different way, we’re basically choosing which of the following statements makes better sense:
a. John could have revealed the name of the Antichrist, because John was seen alive until very recently.
b. John could have revealed the name of the Antichrist, because John saw the apocalyptic vision very recently.You could argue that both statements are sensible enough, but I think the first one makes better sense. The logic seems more natural to me.

In making this decision, we also need to consider other things Irenaeus says about the book of Revelation. In fact, very shortly before the oft-referenced quote above, Irenaeus states that the number 666 is “found in all the most approved and ancient copies” of Revelation (Against Heresies, 5.30.1).

Think about that. Irenaeus makes reference to “ancient copies” of the book of Revelation. So not only were these copies ancient (i.e. they had been around a very long time), but they were also in fact copies (i.e. non-original versions). So when Irenaeus, just a couple paragraphs later, speaks of something that “was seen not a long time back, but almost in my own lifetime,” how could that be a reference to the vision of Revelation? What kind of sense would it make for Irenaeus to refer to copies of the apocalyptic vision as “ancient,” but also maintain that the vision itself occurred almost in his own lifetime?

This problem is alleviated if we understand ἑωράθη as a reference to John himself (“he was seen”), rather than the apocalyptic vision (“it was seen”).

This guy is trying to explain away the facts because it cuts across his beloved doctrine. He is clearly biased. There is a severe lack of objectivity here. Frankly, his words mean nothing and prove nothing.

This Preterist opinion does not override the historic evidence. Preterists are always quoting Preterist sources for Preterist proof. This does not cut it. This proves nothing but the Preterist bias of both. It shows they are bereft of hard proof. The ancient facts refute modern partial reasoning to support false beliefs. The evidence is water tight. This has become a very one-sided discussion. Preterism has nothing here.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

To answer your question, the judgment associated with Christ's Parousia was not merely restricted to the land of Israel or Jerusalem (although that was the center). Disasters were going on all over the empire as God's wrath was being poured out. While preterists often turn to a slew of historical resources to show the famines, city-sized destructions from earthquakes, and empire-wide wars that were breaking out by God's design, we need only to look in our bibles to see how the churches around the empire were being affected at that time:


--THE END-OF-THE-AGE TRIBULATION--

* world-wide famine (Acts 11:27-29)

* plagues (1 Cor 11:29-31)

* world-wide suffering of the church (1 Pet 4:7,12-13; 5:9; 2 Thess 1:4-6)

* judgment upon the empire's kings/rulers (Acts 12:1-4/19-24; 23:1-3; 24:24-25)

* the apostasy (book of Jude; 2 Tim 1:15; 2 Tim 4:16)



--THE RELIEF PROVIDED BY CHRIST'S PAROUSIA--

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thessalonica
promise: 2 Thess 1:6-7
result: their persecutors would be cut off, ending their persecution

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Did the things promised to the seven churches of Asia Minor fail to materialize for them as they were promised?

If one were to say that the promises made to the seven churches of Asia Minor failed to materialize for them, then that would indict the NT apostles (especially St. John) as false prophets. If one says that the promises made to the seven churches did materialize, then Christ came, and the apostles are vindicated as true prophets. This is serious stuff; if the promised relief of Rev 2-3 failed to arrive via Christ's coming, then Christianity has failed prophets at its very root.

Thankfully, It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.

Maybe I should have been more clear. What I'm asking is why would Revelation only be addressed to the seven churches in Asia if most of the book of Revelation (after chapter 3) has to do with things that occurred in JERUSALEM around 70 AD? Isn't that what you believe? If so, then why wasn't Revelation also addressed to the church in Jerusalem?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Maybe I should have been more clear. What I'm asking is why would Revelation only be addressed to the seven churches in Asia if most of the book of Revelation (after chapter 3) has to do with things that occurred in JERUSALEM around 70 AD? Isn't that what you believe? If so, then why wasn't Revelation also addressed to the church in Jerusalem?

Exactly, if God was intending to send a message to believers in Jerusalem or Israel, or a warning to apostate Israel, why was it posted to Asia Minor? Clearly it got badly misplaced. This is not a human postal service. This is an angelical messenger on a very definite, deliberate and accurate mission.

 

[parousia70]

Exactly, if God was intending to send a message to believers in Jerusalem or Israel, or a warning to apostate Israel, why was it posted to Asia Minor? Clearly it got badly misplaced. This is not a human postal service. This is an angelical messenger on a very definite, deliberate and accurate mission.

IF you're going to grab that stick and shake it at me, Don't forget you're ignoring the the side of the stick you're grabbing by claiming the promises made to the 7 churches were not FOR them either....

 

[parousia70]

That’s how I see it. I don’t ignore the significance of AD 70, but I see it as a precursor to a greater tribulation in the future.

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-22)

How do you get "precursor to a greater fulfillment 2000+ years later" from "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled?

And, since you "don't ignore the significance of AD70", can you elaborate on what significance you believe is has, so we can better understand what it is you aren't ignoring?

 

[parousia70]

Maybe I should have been more clear. What I'm asking is why would Revelation only be addressed to the seven churches in Asia if most of the book of Revelation (after chapter 3) has to do with things that occurred in JERUSALEM around 70 AD? Isn't that what you believe? If so, then why wasn't Revelation also addressed to the church in Jerusalem?

Same point I posted above, I pose as a question to you.
Why would you claim the letters were for the 7 churches and not for Israel, and simultaneously believe the promises made to the 7 churches were not FOR them either?

If you're going to object to the letters sent to the 7 churches, and promises made to them therein, as not being FOR Israel, You ought not then likewise claim the Letters were NOT for those 7 churches either.

It completely undermines your argument.

It's not as though Israel wasn't well warned in the Gospels and epistles already.

Clearly John is affirming my previous point, that AD70 was an empire wide Judgement.

 

[sovereigngrace]

IF you're going to grab that stick and shake it at me, Don't forget you're ignoring the the side of the stick you're grabbing by claiming the promises made to the 7 churches were not FOR them either....

Not true! Like Dispys, you try and rebut Amil Idealism with your faulty extreme Preterist view of Revelation. For Preterists, the coming of Titus and 70 AD "is the most significant event in our history." For the rest of us, we are obsessed with Christ's sinless life, atoning death and victorious resurrection. The cross is at the center of our faith. It is the most significant event in our history. We marvel at His current kingship as He rules and reigns with all power and authority in heaven and on earth. We are equally fixated with waiting and watching for His glorious and future coming. There are monumental difference in doctrine and focus!

To me, the book has nothing to do with AD70. Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

So, your whole fixation the coming of Titus and 70 AD blurs your vision of the Book and history. The fact you call yourself parousia70 is testimony to what is important to you. There is a severe lack of objectivity. You need to start focusing on Jesus, the cross-work and His glorious return to resurrect and judge mankind.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Same point I posted above, I pose as a question to you.
Why would you claim the letters were for the 7 churches and not for Israel, and simultaneously believe the promises made to the 7 churches were not FOR them either?

When did I say the promises made to the 7 churches were not for them? You are changing the subject here. I am simply asking you why was the book of Revelation not also addressed to churches in and around Jerusalem if many of the things described in it pertain to things that would happen in and around Jerusalem?

If you're going to object to the letters sent to the 7 churches, and promises made to them therein, as not being FOR Israel, You ought not then likewise claim the Letters were NOT for those 7 churches either.

I'm not claiming that the letters were not for those 7 churches. Good grief.

 

[Freedm]

This guy is trying to explain away the fax because it cuts across his beloved doctrine. He is clearly biased. There is a severe lack of objectivity here. Frankly, his words mean nothing or prove anything.

This Preterist opinion does not negate the historic evidence. Preterists are always quoting Preterist sources for Preterist proof. This does not cut it. This proves nothing but the Preterist bias of both. It shows they are bereft of hard proof. The ancient facts refute modern partial reasoning to support false beliefs. The evidence is water tight. This has become a very one-sided discussion. Preterism has nothing here.

At the very least you have to admit that the words of Ireneaus can be read one of two ways, and deciding which way to read them should be the way that makes the most sense within the context. I agree with the author that it makes the most sense to say "John was seen recently" rather than "the Revelation was seen recently". This may not be proof, but in the absence of proof we have to use analytical skills.

Having said all that, you seem to have taken the position that the burden of proof is on preterists, but at the same time have provided no proof at all of your own position. You can only cite the same words that we cite and while we have given ample reason to doubt your understanding of those words, you've given us no reason to doubt our understanding.

 

[sovereigngrace]

As I noted, I am looking for historical evidence of Polycarp's insight, not an interpretation of what constitutes correct doctrine or conjecture. Let the data lead our question, not our personal current views of eschatology which could all be wrong.

I know you are hoping for a smoking gun. But (from my experience) most of the evidence is now out on the table from both sides. People need to come to their own conclusions. To me, this is one of the most one-sided discussions I have ever been involved in.

I have typically stayed out of this debate over the years. The reason is, it makes no difference to the Idealist Amil position (that I hold). The same applies for Historicists. As a former Police Officer in Northern Ireland for 15 years, and as someone who has written extensively on secret society history from a Christian perspective, and having studied the early church fathers in depth for about 10 years, I simply want to know the truth. I go where the evidence takes me. I have let the Preterists and Dispensationalists fight it out over the years on this subject. In my opinion, they have both got their prejudiced agendas. They both have to prove the date in order to justify their doctrines. Idealists and Historicists have no such dogs in the fight. But, because of my knowledge of the early church fathers and because of some of the outlandish and erroneous statements Preterists have made on this thread, I feel forced to enter the discussion and present the historic evidence as I see it. To me, it is compelling and water-tight.

For the record, I have no time for Dispensationalism. I have little respect for the objectivity of their pseudo-historians. I say this as a former Pretribber. They are typical bias beyond description. But Preterists are similar. In regard to the dating, history and the internal evidence, it overwhelmingly points to a late dating of Revelation.

The evidence I presented in # 223 remains unchallenged, because I am quoting irrefutable historic facts. Preterists have no answer to it. Frankly, Preterists are all over the place in their response. In one breath they are forced to dismiss the witness of the early church fathers – “The ECF's had an inconsistent and ununified eschatology, that is for sure.” That is because the facts negate Preterism. In the next breath they are trying to reword and rewrite what the early church fathers are actually saying. This is telling us that they are not being objective but desperate (by whatever means) to prove their own case. This is not the way to do objective study. Sadly, this is how many extreme (or Full) Preterists approach Scripture as well.

From what i can see, the Preterist case has been solidly debunked on this thread by various posters. Because the doctrine depends upon an early dating of Revelation, the evidence spells a death to the doctrine.

 

[sovereigngrace]

At the very least you have to admit that the words of Ireneaus can be read one of two ways, and deciding which way to read them should be the way that makes the most sense within the context. I agree with the author that it makes the most sense to say "John was seen recently" rather than "the Revelation was seen recently". This may not be proof, but in the absence of proof we have to use analytical skills.

Having said all that, you seem to have taken the position that the burden of proof is on preterists, but at the same time have provided no proof at all of your own position. You can only cite the same words that we cite and while we have given ample reason to doubt your understanding of those words, you've given us no reason to doubt our understanding.

The evidence I presented in # 223 remains unchallenged, because I am quoting irrefutable historic facts.

 

[parousia70]

When did I say the promises made to the 7 churches were not for them? You are changing the subject here. I am simply asking you why was the book of Revelation not also addressed to churches in and around Jerusalem if many of the things described in it pertain to things that would happen in and around Jerusalem?

I'm not claiming that the letters were not for those 7 churches. Good grief.

So you assert Jesus Christ Came as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis?
Revelation 3:3

You assert Jesus came and fulfilled all these promises to these 4 1st century Churches as well?

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Did the things promised to the seven churches of Asia Minor fail to materialize for them as they were promised, or do you assert they were fulfilled for them in their day?

 

[sovereigngrace]

So you assert Jesus Christ Came as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis?
Revelation 3:3

You assert Jesus came and fulfilled all these promises to these 4 1st century Churches as well?

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Did the things promised to the seven churches of Asia Minor fail to materialize for them as they were promised, or do you assert they were fulfilled for them in their day?

The coming of Christ is a literal physical climactic event. You cannot spiritualize it away to fit Preterism.

Acts 1:10 says, “while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

1. Did Jesus Christ come literally with the coming of Titus in AD70?
2. Did Jesus Christ come physically with the coming of Titus in AD70?
3. Did Jesus Christ come visibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
4. Did Jesus Christ come audibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
5. Did Jesus Christ come bodily with the coming of Titus in AD70?

Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

1. Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70?
2. Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him?
3. Did the Gentiles also wail because of Him?

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talk much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So you assert Jesus Christ Came as a thief to the 1st century Church at Sardis?
Revelation 3:3

You assert Jesus came and fulfilled all these promises to these 4 1st century Churches as well?

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Did the things promised to the seven churches of Asia Minor fail to materialize for them as they were promised, or do you assert they were fulfilled for them in their day?

If you would answer my question (I asked first) then I'll answer your questions. Once again, my question to you is why is the book of Revelation not addressed to churches in and around Jerusalem if most of the events described after chapter 3 had to do with things that would happen in and around Jerusalem in 70 AD?

 

[Freedm]

In regard to the dating, history and the internal evidence, it overwhelmingly points to a late dating of Revelation.

Can you give us an example of internal evidence that "overwhelmingly points to a late dating of Revelation"?

 

[claninja]

When did I say the promises made to the 7 churches were not for them? You are changing the subject here. I am simply asking you why was the book of Revelation not also addressed to churches in and around Jerusalem if many of the things described in it pertain to things that would happen in and around Jerusalem?

Loaded question. No scripture explains why Jesus’ vision of the 7 lamp stands was specificallY for only churches in asia, and not Jerusalem. However, audience relevance is important. Christian Jews were still zealous for the law and still travelled to Jerusalem every year for certain feasts. No doubt John’s audience in revelation had Jews.

Additionally, There was an hour of trial coming upon the known world, that Jesus was going to keep the church of Philadelphia from because they kept His word. (Revelation 3:10). Do you believe they were kept from the trial?

this hour of trial is generally agreed upon as the great tribulation.

I would argue the great tribulation involved not only Jerusalem, although that is the main focus (Matthew 24:19-21), but also the the whole Roman world or “oikoumenes” (revelation 3:10), which was involved in civil wars during the time of the Jewish revolt.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Loaded question. No scripture explains why Jesus’ vision of the 7 lamp stands was specificallY for only churches in asia, and not Jerusalem. However, audience relevance is important. Christian Jews were still zealous for the law and still travelled to Jerusalem every year for certain feasts. No doubt John’s audience in revelation had Jews.

Additionally, There was an hour of trial coming upon the known world, that Jesus was going to keep the church of Philadelphia from because they kept His word. (Revelation 3:10). Do you believe they were kept from the trial?

this hour of trial is generally agreed upon as the great tribulation.

I would argue the great tribulation involved not only Jerusalem, although that is the main focus (Matthew 24:19-21), but also the the whole Roman world or “oikoumenes” (revelation 3:10), which was involved in civil wars during the time of the Jewish revolt.

I appreciate the response, but none of this explains why the letter/book wouldn't have also been addressed to churches in and around Jerusalem if the main event (not the only one, but the main one) centered around things that would happen in Jerusalem in the near future (from the time it was written).

 

[sovereigngrace]

Can you give us an example of internal evidence that "overwhelmingly points to a late dating of Revelation"?

Of course! I believe Revelation is not a chronological unfolding of end-time events, but is a series of recapitulations or retelling of events that culminate in the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 6-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light.

John was simply shown a number of parallel visions one after the other, all culminating in the climactic coming of Christ. Each parallel concentrate on the same time period and the symbolic ongoing events that occur throughout, viewing them from slightly different camera angles. Sometimes God is speaking primarily of the elect, sometimes He is majoring on the wicked. Sometimes He is describing the righteous in heaven, sometimes the righteous on earth. Sometimes it is the humans that reside within the kingdom of darkness, sometimes it is the invisible demonic host that reside there. Although coming from divergent angles, the parallels are carefully interwoven like a linen cloth. Often to establish the meaning and format of the book, we have to meticulously and patiently fit the jig-saw pieces together in order to see the unfolding picture. That is not to say we have a full revelation of this peculiar book, but we can have an insight into this inspired book.

The parallels reveal the increasing degrees of intensity of the intra-Advent conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, culminating in a great final gathering for battle and the climactic return of Christ to obliterate all rebellion.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the Coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world anti-Christ system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

If our supposition is to fit perfectly, the final vial, in keeping with the final trumpet, must be an unmistakable description of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture of the saints. Similarly, it must also be a solemn picture of the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the wicked and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21 declares, “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done’ (or Gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

John’s attention is then brought to wrath aspect of the day of the Lord. Firstly, we see the heavenly army of God described. Verses 11- say, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (the Word of God), that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or ‘shepherd’) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Revelation 19:17-21 continues, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The End!!!

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

Here we have a great spiritual assault upon the Church just prior to the end. In keeping with the rest of Scripture, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

CONCLUSION

I don’t believe any open-minded objective Bible student could arrive at any conclusion other than the fact that Revelation is a number of similar parallels taking us up to the Second Advent (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern happens repeatedly through the New Testament. Also, they are clearly intra-advent.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Loaded question. No scripture explains why Jesus’ vision of the 7 lamp stands was specificallY for only churches in asia, and not Jerusalem. However, audience relevance is important. Christian Jews were still zealous for the law and still travelled to Jerusalem every year for certain feasts. No doubt John’s audience in revelation had Jews.

Additionally, There was an hour of trial coming upon the known world, that Jesus was going to keep the church of Philadelphia from because they kept His word. (Revelation 3:10). Do you believe they were kept from the trial?

this hour of trial is generally agreed upon as the great tribulation.

I would argue the great tribulation involved not only Jerusalem, although that is the main focus (Matthew 24:19-21), but also the the whole Roman world or “oikoumenes” (revelation 3:10), which was involved in civil wars during the time of the Jewish revolt.

You are skipping around the issue. This is another major issue that totally exposes the Preterist position. Your response is weak and unconvincing.