Evidence for date of John's exile on Patmos

[sovereigngrace]

I respectfully disagree. Revelation is not symbolic as Preterists think. Many if not most scholars and professors of Theology have long concluded that Revelation is yet in the future, and the number of scholars that still hold to a Preterist view is a tiny handful by comparison. Same with Christian laypeople who are not scholars in the church. Occam's razor says the conclusion with the least number of assumptions is generally the correct view, and Futurists have to make a thousand times less assumptions about Revelation than Preterists.

Really? So your theology seems to be based on what is the most popular in Christendom? Hmmmm.

 

[DavidPT]

There is no way “must shortly take place for the time is near” Can be stretched into two millennia without employing naked, unabashed, flag waving symbolism.

To be consistent, and not to be cherry picking instead, the way you seem to be applying that, has to be applied in the same manner to the following as well, for example. What I have underlined and the way you are applying that in the book of Revelation, are you also applying it in the same manner regarding these verses I submitted below? I take it that your remark about symbolism was being applied to this--“must shortly take place for the time is near” .


BTW, it doesn't matter if one is Amil or Premil, in neither position could there possibly be anything recorded in Revelation 20:7-15 that shortly came to pass in the first century.

Maybe a better way to understand what I have underlined below, is that the ball got rolling in the first century, and that things began to come to pass and progresses until everything recorded in Revelation eventually comes to pass, which might involve a few thousand years? And not that everything recorded in Revelation comes to pass in the first century only, or that everything recorded in Revelation comes to pass in the far future only. Unless one is a full Preterist, the verses I submitted below clearly prove that things which must shortly come to pass, couldn't possibly only mean events pertaining to the first century.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[parousia70]

To be consistent, and not to be cherry picking instead, the way you seem to be applying that, has to be applied in the same manner to the following as well, for example. What I have underlined and the way you are applying that in the book of Revelation, are you also applying it in the same manner regarding these verses I submitted below? I take it that your remark about symbolism was being applied to this--“must shortly take place for the time is near” .

Yes.

BTW, it doesn't matter if one is Amil or Premil, in neither position could there possibly be anything recorded in Revelation 20:7-15 that shortly came to pass in the first century.

Why?

Maybe a better way to understand what I have underlined below, is that the ball got rolling in the first century, and that things began to come to pass and progresses until everything recorded in Revelation eventually comes to pass, which might involve a few thousand years?

Revelation does not exist in a vacuum. It must be harmonized with the whole of scripture.

And the Revelation is Bookended with the same phrase:

Revelation 1:1-3
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 226-7, 20
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

All events within these bookends were ordained to "shortly take place for the time was near".

Scripture does not allow for stretching any of the events beyond the apostolic generation.

And to be clear one does not have to be a full preterist to affirm this Biblical fact.

And not that everything recorded in Revelation comes to pass in the first century only, or that everything recorded in Revelation comes to pass in the far future only. Unless one is a full Preterist, the verses I submitted below clearly prove that things which must shortly come to pass, couldn't possibly only mean events pertaining to the first century.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10/1 Thessalonians 5:2, Revelation 3:3)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

The popular millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 temporal, earthly years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...

wait for it......

1000 LITERAL years!

The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.

Amazing LITERAL History.

None of this negates the future to us Consummation spoken of in the Historic Creeds, the timing and details of which have not been revealed to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Seem like your view suffers from the same conundrum.
if the things that are written about in Revelation 2-3 center mainly around events thousands of years removed from the 1st century Asia Minor Churches, and not the those 1st century congregations themselves, then it would not make sense for the book to be addressed to 1st century churches in the province of Asia, now would it?

Goodness gracious. You are apparently making a lot of assumptions about what I believe without making any effort to find out what I actually believe. When did I say that "things that are written about in Revelation 2-3 center mainly around events thousands of years removed from the 1st century Asia Minor Churches, and not the those 1st century congregations themselves"? I never did! I do believe that all churches throughout church history are meant to heed the things Jesus said to those seven churches and learn from them, but the things He said applied directly to those 1st century churches.

The second coming of Jesus Christ was a conditional first-century event based on the decisions of men??? The second coming of Jesus Christ was delayed 2000+ years because some first-century men in Sardis did or did not not repent when Jesus attempted to come back for them? Not hardly.

That is not what I'm saying at all. If He was speaking of His global second coming there rather than warning unrepentant people in the church in Sardis about punishing them specifically if they didn't repent, then He was not saying that His coming was conditional upon them repenting or not. Of course, He will come at His second coming regardless of what anyone does.

So, if He was speaking of His global second coming there rather than only speaking of dealing with the church of Sardis specifically, then even He would not have known when that would occur. Only the Father knows (Matt 24:36). So, you can't use what He said to the church in Sardis as evidence that He had to return in the first century.

As everyone can plainly see, Revelation 2-3 is Christ's judgment, the judgment at Christ's coming. The punishments and/or rewards received were based "according to their works," as was predicted in the gospels and epistles:

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-8
thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, Who will render to every man according to his works: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

It is complete nonsense to think that the scripture which speaks of Jesus judging everyone according to what they've done was already fulfilled in the first century. What about everyone who has lived since then? When will they be judged? Scripture teaches that all people will be judged at the same time, which is exactly what is taught in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Acts 17:30-31. That has clearly not yet occurred.

The thief's coming itself was not conditional, and it was fulfilled exactly when Jesus and the apostles believed it would be--in their generation.

The coming of Jesus Christ as a Thief is NOT A CONDITIONAL EVENT.

I'm not saying it is! You wasted all that time creating your post (much of which I didn't bother quoting) arguing against something that I'm not even saying.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes.



Why?



Revelation does not exist in a vacuum. It must be harmonized with the whole of scripture.

And the Revelation is Bookended with the same phrase:

Revelation 1:1-3
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 226-7, 20
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

All events within these bookends were ordained to "shortly take place for the time was near".

Scripture does not allow for stretching any of the events beyond the apostolic generation.

And to be clear one does not have to be a full preterist to affirm this Biblical fact.



The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10/1 Thessalonians 5:2, Revelation 3:3)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

The popular millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 temporal, earthly years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...

wait for it......

1000 LITERAL years!

The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.

Amazing LITERAL History.

None of this negates the future to us Consummation spoken of in the Historic Creeds, the timing and details of which have not been revealed to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)

All amils, including partial preterists, take the thousand years to be figurative. But, you seem to be taking it to another level. Not only do you not see if as being a literal thousand years, but you reduce the figurative thousand years to...what, a few years or less? Every other time the word "thousand" is used figuratively in scripture it is used to figuratively describe a large, indefinite number. Such as the mentions of God's promises applying to "a thousand generations" and the "cattle on a thousand hills".

It makes no sense to me that you accept a future consummation (whatever that means to you) because of what you read in the "Historic Creeds", but you don't see that written about in scripture. Where do you think the belief in the "Consummation spoken of in the Historic Creeds" came from? Scripture.

 

[parousia70]

So, if He was speaking of His global second coming there rather than only speaking of dealing with the church of Sardis specifically, then even He would not have known when that would occur. Only the Father knows (Matt 24:36). So, you can't use what He said to the church in Sardis as evidence that He had to return in the first century.

If He would not have known the Generation of people on whom it would befall (which is assumed by you but is not taught in the text) He could NOT have Promised that it would befall those first century people the way He plainly did. There is no way around this.

You have the Glorified Christ, from heaven, Promising His thief's coming would befall actual air breathing, blood pumping human beings alive in the first century, when he had no knowledge or authority to back up that promise. Such is absurd.

If He was speaking of His global second coming there rather than warning unrepentant people in the church in Sardis about punishing them specifically if they didn't repent

What's the difference? Where is that Difference taught in the text?
Where is it taught in the text that Christ "comes as a thief" multiple times to punish or reward specific people groups at different points in History?

The Bible does not teach that Christ comes as a thief multiple times, you apparently need it to, but it doesn't.
Simply put, the thief's coming is the "day of the Lord", and the day of the lord in the NT is the parousia of Christ. (2 Peter 3:10, cf. Revelation 16:15, 3:3, Matthew 24:43, Luke 12:39)

And in Revelation 3:3, Christ directly applies His coming as a thief to the first century Church at Sardis, thus CEMENTING the Day of the Lord coming of Christ as a thief, to the 1st century.

Jesus Christ must be right, and therefore futurism must be wrong, concerning the timing of the coming of Christ/Day of the Lord as a Thief.

 

[claninja]

I disagree that that was the great tribulation on Israel.

what do you believe the great trial, which the church in Philadelphia was be kept from and that was to come on the whole world, was, if in no way related to the tribulation of the olivet discourse?

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. Revelation 3:10-11

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Matthew 24:21, 33

 

[parousia70]

Where do you think the belief in the "Consummation spoken of in the Historic Creeds" came from? Scripture.

And the Creed also states there is "ONE Holy CATHOLIC and apostolic Church".

Where do you think they got that from?
Guess You'd Better convert and join the Church of Scripture.

 

[parousia70]

All amils, including partial preterists, take the thousand years to be figurative. But, you seem to be taking it to another level. Not only do you not see if as being a literal thousand years, but you reduce the figurative thousand years to...what, a few years or less? Every other time the word "thousand" is used figuratively in scripture it is used to figuratively describe a large, indefinite number. Such as the mentions of God's promises applying to "a thousand generations" and the "cattle on a thousand hills".

I reduce nothing.

Here is the relevant snippet again:

The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...

wait for it......

1000 LITERAL years!

The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign". LITERALLY.

 

[claninja]

Preterism is all over the place. The location of the great trib has suddenly moved from the coming of Titus to Jerusalem in AD70 to Asia Minor at some unknown time and the coming of Jesus as a thief is now 2000 years ago to Asia Minor. This does not add up and crudely exemplifies Preterism. There are so many holes in this doctrine it cannot hold water.

well that’s clearly a straw man argument

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Is now?
Did Jesus Lie?
He plainly promised his thief’s coming would befall the first century people at Sardis.
Again, Did He Lie?
Was he merely mistaken? Was he issuing an empty threat to them? Why don’t you explain Revelation 3:3 to us Since you don’t believe it means what it plainly says.

Feel free to wing it.

Explain to me how He would have known exactly when He was coming when He had previously said this:

Matthew 24:36 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Your view contradicts the fact that Jesus did not know when He was coming. So, there has to be another way to interpret the verse than how you interpret it. I do agree with you that Jesus was making a promise to them and not just an empty threat, so I believe a better interpretation of the verse that doesn't contradict other scripture is that He was NOT referring to His literal, visible, bodily second coming in that verse. He was speaking figuratively about punishing unrepentant members of the church in Sardis specifically if they didn't repent by using similar language that He used to describe His future second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

what do you believe the great trial, which the church in Philadelphia was be kept from and that was to come on the whole world, was, if in no way related to the tribulation of the olivet discourse?

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. Revelation 3:10-11

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Matthew 24:21, 33

The ruthless persecution of the Church by the Roman Empire under Domitian's reign. The destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in AD 70 was something completely different.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I reduce nothing.

Here is the relevant snippet again:

The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...

wait for it......

1000 LITERAL years!

I believe this is a ridiculous interpretation. The thousand years is applied specifically to the time Christ reigns while Satan is bound. There is no indication whatsoever that it has anything to do with the time from David to Christ. None! The thousand years began when Christ began to reign. Yet, you say the thousand years is already past. This is why I say that you reduce the thousand years to a much shorter amount of time.

The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign". LITERALLY.

I'm sorry, but this is one of the most farfetched interpretations that I've ever seen. I couldn't disagree more.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And the Creed also states there is "ONE Holy CATHOLIC and apostolic Church".

Where do you think they got that from?
Guess You'd Better convert and join the Church of Scripture.

It appears that you completely missed my point. I personally couldn't care less about those creeds. But, you apparently think of them on the same level of scripture. And one of the things the creeds teach came from their interpretations of scripture and, yet, you still don't even see that taught in scripture yourself (what you called "the consummation").

 

[parousia70]

Explain to me how He would have known exactly when He was coming when He had previously said this:

Matthew 24:36 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Your view contradicts the fact that Jesus did not know when He was coming. So, there has to be another way to interpret the verse than how you interpret it.

1) I remember when my late wife (God rest her beautiful soul) was pregnant.

We had absolutely NO IDEA what day or Hour our child would be born on. Not even a clue. It was an impossibility for us to KNOW the day or Hour our Child would be born. Only God Knew that.

Also, we knew FOR AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that our child would be Born sometime before October, (He ended up being born on Sept 7th, @ 1:07 AM)

Apparently it was perfectly possible for us to KNOW the general time for an absolute certainty, and authoritatively communicate that general time with absolute certainty to prepare friends and family, but also remain completely in the dark as to the day or hour, until it actually happened.

I know, Crazy huh?

2) While on earth, Jesus Did not know the day or Hour. True.
In Heaven, at the right hand of the Father (who we agree did Know), Jesus was then Given The Revelation By the Father, to Give to John, to Tell his servants "thing which must shortly take place, for the time was Near".
Even if He yet remained in the dark as to the day or Hour once He got to Heaven (the Bible is silent on that), He was clearly able to communicate the general time authoritatively, and He clearly did just that, both from Heaven AND while on earth..

 

[Freedm]

Preterism is all over the place. The location of the great trib has suddenly moved from the coming of Titus to Jerusalem in AD70 to Asia Minor at some unknown time and the coming of Jesus as a thief is now 2000 years ago to Asia Minor. This does not add up and crudely exemplifies Preterism. There are so many holes in this doctrine it cannot hold water.

You are clearly winging it.

And you wonder why most Amils reject this doctrine!

Right. Cause futurists are 100% in agreement on everything.

 

[Freedm]

Looks to me that the weight of evidence is solidly on AD95 during the reign of Domitian for the timing of John's exile on Patmos which means John could not possibly be referring to the fall of Jerusalem in the book of Revelation. Further the inability to answer the 4 questions I had for Preterists is pretty convincing that the view of Preterism is hard to justify in light of the weight of Scripture from Daniel to the Olivet Discourse to the rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4 to the entire book of Revelation. And as we continue into Steve Gregg's book on the 4 views of Revelation it is getting harder and harder to really see any merit to any view other than Futurism when honestly assessing the Scripture at face value, at least based on what I see through my engineering objective data centered and Holy Spirit led eyes. When taken as a whole, Scripture seems best interpreted by the lens of Futurism. All other interpretations require so much symbolism that Revelation winds up a meaningless book of prophecy when taken as anything else, as does the words of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse.

Your four questions were answered. Several times.

And I'm not sure how you can say preterism is hard to justify in light of scripture, since the scripture itself clearly points to the promises being fulfilled within that generation, and soon after John received the Revelation. In fact, I would argue that in light of scripture, futurism is impossible to justify, but I can only assume that there are other scripture verses which you believe make preterism impossible. Please do share.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Your four questions were answered. Several times.

And I'm not sure how you can say preterism is hard to justify in light of scripture, since the scripture itself clearly points to the promises being fulfilled within that generation, and soon after John received the Revelation. In fact, I would argue that in light of scripture, futurism is impossible to justify, but I can only assume that there are other scripture verses which you believe make preterism impossible. Please do share.

Good deal. I'll read thru it all. I'm just holding an INTERIM position as Futurism but I am still studying all views. We got a long way to go thru the book yet, and I am already reading other sources too. I'm not asking questions to sway anyone, I am asking because I am leading this study of eschatology and do not want to be a bad teacher or mislead anyone as Scripture warns teachers we are judged hardeer than others and this one would be on me.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Also good news today from my angiogram. Despite the CT scan saying I had "moderately extensive coronary calcification" the angiogram found no blockages at all. All they did was double my Lipitor from 40 mg to 80 mg a day.

Thanks to all who prayed for me. God is good, everyday! I was even at peace with passing away today if that was my destiny. But seems the Lord has more work for me here first.

 

[Freedm]

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I don't believe including a prophecy still thousands of years away in a book that is 99% about the near future negates the preterist position in any way. If 99% of what John saw was indeed to take place within 20 years of the vision, then it's still correct for Jesus to say "I will show you what must soon take place", notwithstanding that he may also show a little bit of what is still far off.