"Every life brings love into this world."

[redleghunter]

The fact that most of the adherents are absolutely clueless about science and public policy. They’re coming at it from a religiously-influenced moral perspective, which isn’t necessarily a problem in and of itself, but it doesn’t equip them to convince anybody outside of their religion and it doesn’t inform them of other policies that might help them achieve their goals.

Categorically false. In fact the pro life movement actually acknowledges settled science like biology.

There are a lot of misogynists and/or puritanical authoritarians on the right who, despite all their claims of supporting children, would really love nothing more than to codify into law punishments for those they see as guilty of certain (often sexual) sins.

Maybe in the Handmaid’s Tale on Hulu. Just a reminder that is fiction.

The abortion issue (as with many hot button issues) involves balancing the rights of one group against those of another and figuring out where best to draw the line between them. It’s very hard to concede ground on your side when you don’t believe the other side is acting in good faith.

Yes it is hard to concede because we are speaking of the difference between life and death. Our founders got the right order in the Declaration of Independence:
Life
Liberty
Pursuit of Happiness.

You seem to advocate that life should be negotiated with liberty and pursuit of happiness.

FWIW, I don’t think the pro-choice side is much better. But I think the pro-life side has been failing worse despite having a somewhat easier case to make.

Obviously opinion here but where you draw your opinion is unknown. Perhaps if you cut through those postmodern word bombs like misogyny and puritanical authoritarians, perhaps good discussion could flow.

 

[Athanasius377]

The fact that most of the adherents are absolutely clueless about science and public policy. They’re coming at it from a religiously-influenced moral perspective, which isn’t necessarily a problem in and of itself, but it doesn’t equip them to convince anybody outside of their religion and it doesn’t inform them of other policies that might help them achieve their goals.

Can you demonstrate this? I admit, it sounds really good. Almost believable on the face of it.

There are a lot of misogynists and/or puritanical authoritarians on the right who, despite all their claims of supporting children, would really love nothing more than to codify into law punishments for those they see as guilty of certain (often sexual) sins. The abortion issue (as with many hot button issues) involves balancing the rights of one group against those of another and figuring out where best to draw the line between them. It’s very hard to concede ground on your side when you don’t believe the other side is acting in good faith.

Again, can you demonstrate this? Because both statements are awfully close to a caricature of the pro-life position.

 

[redleghunter]

Again, can you demonstrate this? Because both statements are awfully close to a caricature of the pro-life position.

This may help:

Handmaid’s Tale

The Handmaid's Tale (TV series) - Wikipedia
Description
Based on the best-selling novel by Margaret Atwood, this series is set in Gilead, a totalitarian society in what used to be part of the United States. Gilead is ruled by a fundamentalist regime that treats women as property of the state, and is faced with environmental disasters and a plummeting birth rate. In a desperate attempt to repopulate a devastated world, the few remaining fertile women are forced into sexual servitude. One of these women, Offred, is determined to survive the terrifying world she lives in, and find the daughter that was taken from her.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Categorically false. In fact the pro life movement actually acknowledges settled science like biology.


Maybe in the Handmaid’s Tale on Hulu. Just a reminder that is fiction.


Yes it is hard to concede because we are speaking of the difference between life and death. Our founders got the right order in the Declaration of Independence:
Life
Liberty
Pursuit of Happiness.

You seem to advocate that life should be negotiated with liberty and pursuit of happiness.


Obviously opinion here but where you draw your opinion is unknown. Perhaps if you cut through those postmodern word bombs like misogyny and puritanical authoritarians, perhaps good discussion could flow.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one Red.....

 

[iluvatar5150]

Categorically false. In fact the pro life movement actually acknowledges settled science like biology.

I was referring to things like public health and scientific studies of which policies and practices actually have an impact on abortion rates.

Maybe in the Handmaid’s Tale on Hulu. Just a reminder that is fiction.

I grew up in a typical middle-America, SBC environment. I’m quite familiar with the prevalent attitudes.

It was only a few years ago that this same crowd was fighting tooth and nail, spreading all kinds of dishonest propaganda against the homosexual community trying to resist any concessions to them, and the same thing happens now towards transgendered individuals. That’s sexual authoritarianism. And we can see the sorts of legislation that’s being pushed around the country under the guise of helping women and babies that ultimately does nothing of the sort.

You seem to advocate that life should be negotiated with liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Welcome to living in a democratic republic. Debate and compromise are how we get things done, unless you want to wage a civil war over everything.

Obviously opinion here but where you draw your opinion is unknown. Perhaps if you cut through those postmodern word bombs like misogyny and puritanical authoritarians, perhaps good discussion could flow.

The word post-modern isn’t even relevant here except to serve as what I assume was a misguided attempt to cast aspersions on my argument.

Can you demonstrate this? I admit, it sounds really good. Almost believable on the face of it.

I don’t know how to demonstrate it other than to say to look at the policy proposals pushed by the pro-life movement and count how many of them are based on sound public health research. I’d be surprised if there were more than a few; I wouldn’t be surprised if there were none. Also, look at what sort of ideas the leaders in the movement are pushing.

Again, can you demonstrate this? Because both statements are awfully close to a caricature of the pro-life position.

Again, it’s just living in the community and seeing where there priorities lay and what things they choose to focus on. The caricatures are frequently warranted IMO.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one Red.....

You wouldn’t hold your breath on what? My responding?

 

[Silmarien]

There is no surprise Sister Chittister is pro abortion. She makes her views clear.

Do you have evidence that she is actually pro-abortion? I looked it up, and all I could find was that she identifies as pro-life, so if she really makes the opposite view clear somewhere, could you please provide a reference? I don't think not wanting women to die of ectopic pregnancies automatically makes someone pro-choice. (Granted, I think it's odd that she claims the Catholic Church does not permit the interruption of ectopic pregnancies, since the doctrine of double effect applies there.)

 

[FireDragon76]

There is no surprise Sister Chittister is pro abortion. She makes her views clear.

I don't see any evidence she is "pro-abortion". Having a comprehensive view of what it means to be "pro-life" is different from being pro-abortion.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't see any evidence she is "pro-abortion". Having a comprehensive view of what it means to be "pro-life" is different from being pro-abortion.

See there’s the problem right there. She assumes a lot without evidence. She believes when someone points out life begins at conception that somehow that means that person is against her view of socialism. It’s the red herring to change the subject from murder in the womb back to her socialist agenda.

Also she never addresses what her views are on when human life begins. I take it she won’t because that would put her at odds with the catechism.

 

[redleghunter]

I was referring to things like public health and scientific studies of which policies and practices actually have an impact on abortion rates.

That’s a lot to consider. Does it include drag queen story time and explicit sexual education for children?

Planned Parenthood hands out free contraceptives already. They are in all our public schools advertising it. Is this the science and public health you speak of or does it include multigendered bathrooms? Please be specific.

I grew up in a typical middle-America, SBC environment. I’m quite familiar with the prevalent attitudes.

Indeed their are bad apples everywhere. Yet you indicted everyone. I’m sorry you grew up in that environment.

It was only a few years ago that this same crowd was fighting tooth and nail, spreading all kinds of dishonest propaganda against the homosexual community trying to resist any concessions to them, and the same thing happens now towards transgendered individuals. That’s sexual authoritarianism. And we can see the sorts of legislation that’s being pushed around the country under the guise of helping women and babies that ultimately does nothing of the sort.

Apparently everything these people warned us about has happened if you are referring to homosexual marriage, court cases suing Christians and transgender women (men) using the women’s bathroom. They were right on those accounts but wrong for forgetting “who their neighbor” truly is.

Unfortunately we have churches polarized on either (1) upholding the Righteousness of God ignoring the needs and ministry to neighbor or (2) compromising God’s Righteousness to love neighbor.

When we need to be doing both as both is commanded.

(1) above ends up scaring people away as such a church starts thinking their righteousness is God’s Righteousness. They tend to turn into legalistic societies.

(2) above ends up abandoning Biblical teachings or blending them with societies ways lowering moral standards and thus becoming social justice clubs.

There’s a solution. Obey God and love neighbor. Simple enough. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Welcome to living in a democratic republic. Debate and compromise are how we get things done, unless you want to wage a civil war over everything.

The civil war was fought for a few reasons and one important reason was to free fellow Imago Dei human beings from slavery. That was truly a Liberty vs Pursuit of Happiness conflict.

Now? We are pitting Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness against Life itself. Similar but more dire set of circumstances when you consider the child in the womb cannot speak on his/her own account.

The word post-modern isn’t even relevant here except to serve as what I assume was a misguided attempt to cast aspersions on my argument.

Please forgive me for that comment. It took two posts to find out what was packed into those terms.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Judge not I think comes to mind here.

Agree, but it seems trump has been wrongfully made the exception to the rule.

I personally have done much worse than some things Trump has been charged with, but that was a long time ago. Though you all would hold it against me, I don't believe God does.

How does the scripture go? The one that states, if we don't forgive others, we won't be forgiven? As far as I know, Trump is not doing some of those things anymore, not to mention, did he ever do others. Seems to me it's really bad when people are unforgiving towards people who never commented the wrong they are accused of to begin with, but I'm sure it happens.

 

[redleghunter]

Agree, but it seems trump has been wrongfully made the exception to the rule.

I personally have done much worse than some things trump has been charges with, but that was a long time ago. Though you all would hold it against me, I don't believe God does.

How does the scripture go? The one that states, if we don't forgive others, we won't be forgiven? As far as I know, Trump is not doing some of those things anymore, not top mention, did he ever do others. Seems to me it's really bad when people are unforgiving towards people who never commented the wrong they are accused of, but I'm sure it happens.

Yes I am quite glad God does not hold the grudge some have against Trump.

I go into that a bit earlier.

 

[Nithavela]

Judge not I think comes to mind here.

It usually does come to mind when "your guy" does something wrong, yes.

 

[iluvatar5150]

That’s a lot to consider. Does it include drag queen story time and explicit sexual education for children?

I don't see how drag queen story time is relevant here except, perhaps, as another example of right-wingers going overboard with their paranoia.

Planned Parenthood hands out free contraceptives already. They are in all our public schools advertising it. Is this the science and public health you speak of or does it include multigendered bathrooms? Please be specific.

Improving access to contraceptives is one (big) example. Policies that improve education and aid to mothers after giving birth are others.

Indeed their are bad apples everywhere. Yet you indicted everyone.

No, I didn't.

Apparently everything these people warned us about has happened if you are referring to homosexual marriage court cases suing Christians and transgender women (men) using the women’s bathroom. They were right on those accounts but wrong for forgetting “who their neighbor” truly is.

I'm still waiting for gay marriage to undermine the fabric of the family. I'm still waiting for gay adoptive parents to impose some severe psychological trauma on their adopted kids. And the alleged concern about transgender folks in bathrooms was not merely about folks doing their business, but about assailants using transgenderism as a cover to facilitate their assaults - I'm still waiting for that to materialize, too.

So, no - the things they feared haven't happened.

 

[redleghunter]

It usually does come to mind when "your guy" does something wrong, yes.

That was so sweet. Thank you!

 

[redleghunter]

I'm still waiting for gay marriage to undermine the fabric of the family. I'm still waiting for gay adoptive parents to impose some severe psychological trauma on their adopted kids. And the alleged concern about transgender folks in bathrooms was not merely about folks doing their business, but about assailants using transgenderism as a cover to facilitate their assaults - I'm still waiting for that to materialize, too.

So, no - the things they feared haven't happened.

Some of these things have happened.

Improving access to contraceptives is one (big) example. Policies that improve education and aid to mothers after giving birth are others.

Yes about the bolded above. Is not your church and community already involved in this?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Some of these things have happened.

Not on any kind of scale or frequency that would warrant the claims made by the right. It was unfounded, fear-based propaganda, period.

Yes about the bolded above. Is not your church and community already involved in this?

The church isn't in a position to operate at a scale needed to have a sufficient impact. Many on the pro-life side actively oppose public policies that improve education and provide aid to mothers after they've given birth.

 

[FireDragon76]

See there’s the problem right there. She assumes a lot without evidence. She believes when someone points out life begins at conception that somehow that means that person is against her view of socialism. It’s the red herring to change the subject from murder in the womb back to her socialist agenda.

Also she never addresses what her views are on when human life begins. I take it she won’t because that would put her at odds with the catechism.

You are making many unwarranted assumptions and presenting false dichotomies. You are doing so for polemical purposes rather than to try to understand her point of view.

The fact is there are people that lean towards the pro-life position, like @Silmarien, who nonetheless question the tactics of the political pro-life movement. Because the obsession seems to be about punishing women and doctors rather than addressing the actual reasons women seek abortions in the first place.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There are a lot of misogynists and/or puritanical authoritarians on the right who, despite all their claims of supporting children, would really love nothing more than to codify into law punishments for those they see as guilty of certain (often sexual) sins. The abortion issue (as with many hot button issues) involves balancing the rights of one group against those of another and figuring out where best to draw the line between them. It’s very hard to concede ground on your side when you don’t believe the other side is acting in good faith.

I don't know who your friends or neighbors are but I see pro-life people who actually provide shelter for abused women, figure out places for homeless people to stay, provide meals and groceries for the hungry, and supplies for new babies and their mothers for months and months. Yes, they go and protest abortion too, whether it be in front of an abortuary or marching to the capital in the dead of winter. These are generous people, giving of their time and skills and money. I don't know any pro-life misogynists, although I suppose there are some somewhere. I don't know any puritanical authoritarians who want to yell 'sinner' at anyone. There was that Westboro Baptist place but they are a joke. What I see locally is a forgiving culture of solidarity. I actually think the pro-life puritanical misogynists might be a bit of a straw man. Or at least a political creation that has little if anything to do with the pro-life people in the trenches.

 

[redleghunter]

The church isn't in a position to operate at a scale needed to have a sufficient impact.

Churches are making an impact and have been for a long time. Who do you think city officials call to run these programs.

I get the impression you may not see churches and faith based groups reliable enough for this task?

Many on the pro-life side actively oppose public policies that improve education and provide aid to mothers after they've given birth.

Do they now? Meaning oppose what exactly? A social safety net? Hardly.

Full blown Bernie socialism. Perhaps. I guess when you are setting the terms of what is needed nothing will be enough.

The job placement and education program my church partnered with 7 other churches does well in providing for the local community.

In fact most city programs would fail and fold without partnership with churches. Why? Because those who want the government to do more end up not rolling up their own sleeves and volunteer. All these programs require volunteers and city governments rely heavily on church funds and people.

In fact in the large community where I live churches give close to $10,000,000 a year to the three city governments in two counties. The city managers made the comment that without the church involvement and funds they would have to shutdown the homeless shelters.

However, I know many Americans would not be comfortable knowing this or accepting this. That’s why they advocate the government do it all instead.

But again that is my community where there are hundreds of evangelical, Baptist, Pentecostal churches not to forget the large Catholic presence as well. Not to mention a very giving and active military and military retiree community. All situated in the Belt Buckle of the Texas Bible Belt.

Maybe the rest of the US should learn something from us for a change.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I was referring to things like public health and scientific studies of which policies and practices actually have an impact on abortion rates.

I don’t know how to demonstrate it other than to say to look at the policy proposals pushed by the pro-life movement and count how many of them are based on sound public health research. I’d be surprised if there were more than a few; I wouldn’t be surprised if there were none. Also, look at what sort of ideas the leaders in the movement are pushing.

Again, it’s just living in the community and seeing where there priorities lay and what things they choose to focus on. The caricatures are frequently warranted IMO.

So what part of the Minnesota Catholic Conference's 'Life and Bioethics' proposals are caricatures? It's solid pro-life stuff from people who have been pro-life long before there was even a name for it.