"Every life brings love into this world."

[GodLovesCats]

Hal, far too many people on CF assume every pregnant woman who needs help is even able to get to any charities. Even if a charity could do everything, it is completely useless to women who live in rural towns, where there is no way to access services because of the distance between them. And of course, there are pregnant girls, so they can't all drive.

 

[Silmarien]

I did not ask you about society, I asked about government. Why do you think taxpayers ought to be coerced into paying for the raising of children those taxpayers had no role in conceiving?

Because social programs are necessary to ensure that everyone has access to basic services like education and healthcare. The alternative to taxpayers contributing to the raising of children would be to cut public education and end up with an illiterate underclass that can be exploited at will.

How much control over the upbringing of a child should the government be considered to be purchasing by taking over the parent's financial responsibilities?

This seems to assume that you can raise a child in a vacuum, completely uninfluenced by anyone else around you. Unless you run off to a deserted island, you're automatically ceding some level of control to the surrounding society. I would suspect that the government assumes a good 30% or so of the upbringing of a child just by standardizing education.

For me to understand what you mean by not being an individualist, I must first understand what you mean by the concept of an individualist. How would you define an individualist? Does your saying you are not an individualist mean that you do not believe in individual rights? Does it mean that individual rights are to be secondary to group rights? Do you believe that the "common good" , as defined by those in political power, should be the only consideration in the state granting individuals rights or do you believe we have innate rights that the state ought not to violate? Or do you mean something altogether different from any of those things? Since the original statement we were discussing was about government's financial role in providing for the raising of children, I am assuming we are speaking of an individualist in terms of how the individual relates to the government.

In the context of this conversation, I would understand "individualism" to be, amongst other things, a form of economic liberalism in which everyone is responsible for their own success, and in which the personal quest for the accumulation of material wealth doesn't effect anyone else. I think that's deeply flawed, and would prefer a more cooperative economic model where contribution to the betterment of society is valued over self-aggrandisement. I think individual rights are important, but that the "me and my rights" rhetoric that often results from it is harmful.

I'm some species of socialist, but I'm not a communist and I'm definitely not a utilitarian. We seem to be getting a little off topic here, though.

 

[redleghunter]

Yeah, this is the problem, since it opens up miscarriages to potential investigation. I'd need to look it up again, but I recall coming across some stories where this had actually happened in states with those laws. If abortion becomes illegal, and pregnant women are not exempt from criminal charges, then this is going to get really ugly. Are we going to charge pregnant women who lost it entirely and attempted suicide with attempted murder instead?

In most cases a coroner can tell if a child in the womb was a miscarriage of natural causes and one which violence was applied.

At least in the cases of fetal homicide cases and of course these all happened under abortion on demand.

 

[GACfan]

Trump's words at the Rally for Life:

"Every life brings love into this world. Every child brings joy to a family."

Also Donald Trump...

"The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families" (source).

He's obviously serious about stopping terrorists because he suggested taking out their families.

Also Donald Trump...

"Knock the crap out of them and I'll pay your legal fees" (source). It's obvious that he's pro-life and he respects the lives and well-being of other human beings by his suggestion to beat people up.

Also Donald Trump...

"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters" (source). Again, it's obvious that he's pro-life and he respects the lives of other human beings.

Also Donald Trump...

"If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks. Although the Second Amendment people—maybe there is. I don't know" (source). It's also obvious that he respects the life of Hillary Clinton by suggesting the Second Amendment people could act against her if she got elected instead of him.

He gave his support for taking out the families of terrorists, which includes women and children.

He incited violence at his rallies by advising his supporters beat up protesters who oppose him.

He joked about shooting somebody in the middle of Fifth Avenue and he wouldn't lose any voters.

He suggested the 2nd Amendment people could stop Hillary Clinton if she got elected and not him.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Our President has proclaimed His faith in Christ. I really see no reason to believe otherwise.

Donald Trump could be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness and say that. He also could have lied about it. For anyone to believe Trump, he must prove to everyone none of his beliefs about abortion go against moms. He must tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about women's rights in doctors offices. And the truth is they have more rights than the government, thanks to the U.S. Constitution.

On the the other side of the coin, his opponents have no issues with murder.

Baloney. All of his opponents want to stop murder. The word murder is never about embryos and fetuses and always about people who are already born. There is no reason for Christians to force their religious beliefs onto secular society by calling abortion murder, a totally untrue statement in the USA.

 

[St. Helens]

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