"Every life brings love into this world."

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iluvatar5150

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I don't know who your friends or neighbors are but I see pro-life people who actually provide shelter for abused women, figure out places for homeless people to stay, provide meals and groceries for the hungry, and supplies for new babies and their mothers for months and months. Yes, they go and protest abortion too, whether it be in front of an abortuary or marching to the capital in the dead of winter. These are generous people, giving of their time and skills and money.

That's great. Now, what happens when we try to implement comprehensive sex education, or subsidized contraceptives, or some sort of aid to women and children that makes it easier for these women to raise those kids?

I don't know any pro-life misogynists, although I suppose there are some somewhere.

Next time somebody introduces a bill trying to help women in the workplace, I'll point them out. In the meantime, if you're interested, go dig up some of the invective hurled at Obama when he signed the Lily Ledbetter Act.

I don't know any puritanical authoritarians who want to yell 'sinner' at anyone.

Really? I genuinely do not believe you - or at least, I don't believe that you can effectively identify such people. The religious right is rife with folks like that.


Churches are making an impact and have been for a long time. Who do you think city officials call to run these programs.

I get the impression you may not see churches and faith based groups reliable enough for this task?

Why would you get that impression? I don't know what was unclear when I said that the church couldn't operate at that scale. That means the church isn't big enough.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Not on any kind of scale or frequency that would warrant the claims made by the right. It was unfounded, fear-based propaganda, period.



The church isn't in a position to operate at a scale needed to have a sufficient impact. Many on the pro-life side actively oppose public policies that improve education and provide aid to mothers after they've given birth.
My diocese runs food banks, shelters, hospitals, schools, and all manner of assistance for those in need without any religious tests. At our parish level if you say you need a place to stay for the night you will get one. If you have been battered by a boyfriend or husband you will have a safe place to stay until you can get going again on your own. If you need groceries or gas money you get it. If you think you may be pregnant or have a STD you can get tested.

If your church had the commitment you could do something even with a tiny congregation. At least something. Don't just say you are too small. What do they always say? Act locally. That is far more effective than complaining about the bad old pro-life people while you do nothing at the local level.
 
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redleghunter

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You are making many unwarranted assumptions and presenting false dichotomies. You are doing so for polemical purposes rather than to try to understand her point of view.

The fact is there are people that lean towards the pro-life position, like @Silmarien, who nonetheless question the tactics of the political pro-life movement. Because the obsession seems to be about punishing women and doctors rather than addressing the actual reasons women seek abortions in the first place.
The good Sister Chittister employed a clever sleight of hand non sequitur.

She never gives her position on if unborn human life should be protected, rather she deflects and makes assertions of pro-birth vs pro-life. Then throws her own church sisters under the bus who are doing exactly what she says is not happening without providing evidence.

It’s a great quote for NARAL and PP as they have quoted her.

Her position is devoid of fact and she chooses to either ignore what pro life Christians are doing for the Kingdom or she knowingly is deceptive for political purposes.

Taking her assertions to their logical conclusion, Sister Chittister is telling her audience that it is better to eliminate a child in the womb than have the potential for that child to be hungry and not getting a good education. Wonder what St Benedict would think of that.
 
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iluvatar5150

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So what part of the Minnesota Catholic Conference's 'Life and Bioethics' proposals are caricatures? It's solid pro-life stuff from people who have been pro-life long before there was even a name for it.

I'm much more familiar with the evangelical protestant side of things.
 
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Silmarien

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I don't know who your friends or neighbors are but I see pro-life people who actually provide shelter for abused women, figure out places for homeless people to stay, provide meals and groceries for the hungry, and supplies for new babies and their mothers for months and months. Yes, they go and protest abortion too, whether it be in front of an abortuary or marching to the capital in the dead of winter. These are generous people, giving of their time and skills and money. I don't know any pro-life misogynists, although I suppose there are some somewhere. I don't know any puritanical authoritarians who want to yell 'sinner' at anyone. There was that Westboro Baptist place but they are a joke. What I see locally is a forgiving culture of solidarity. I actually think the pro-life puritanical misogynists might be a bit of a straw man. Or at least a political creation that has little if anything to do with the pro-life people in the trenches.

My concern would be the way the criminalization of abortion often turns into the criminalization of miscarriage, particularly amongst low income women. This is a pretty well-known problem in Latin America, where doctors are so afraid of being accused of performing abortions that they will turn disadvantaged women suffering miscarriages over to the police.

You can have a forgiving culture of solidarity when you don't have legal ambiguity between what is murder and what is a medical emergency. We seem to be between Scylla and Charybdis here, since I don't know how you can legalize abortion without eventually ending up with the dehumanization of the unborn, and I don't know how you can criminalize it without resulting in the dehumanization of pregnant women.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Really? I genuinely do not believe you - or at least, I don't believe that you can effectively identify such people. The religious right is rife with folks like that.
It could be we just travel in different circles. I do not run into such folks at my parish.
 
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redleghunter

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Do you have evidence that she is actually pro-abortion? I looked it up, and all I could find was that she identifies as pro-life, so if she really makes the opposite view clear somewhere, could you please provide a reference? I don't think not wanting women to die of ectopic pregnancies automatically makes someone pro-choice. (Granted, I think it's odd that she claims the Catholic Church does not permit the interruption of ectopic pregnancies, since the doctrine of double effect applies there.)
That’s the problem, she never addresses abortion only take aim at those who oppose it. Then asserts she is fully pro life because she cares about the entire life. A sleight of hand non-sequitur. She changes the subject and assumes there is something akin to pro-birth vs pro-life.

Yet other than her assertions provided no evidence in judging fellow Christians even in her own order and church.

On ectopic pregnancies you are right, the Catholic Church does not take a stance a woman must continue with this life threatening condition. However, takes a position that today doctors are all too willing to perform the procedure without informing women that the pregnancy can continue with limited risks and monitoring.


Much more here: https://www.ncbcenter.org/files/9514/6984/9801/MSOB052_When_Pregnancy_Goes_Awry.pdf
 
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chevyontheriver

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My concern would be the way the criminalization of abortion often turns into the criminalization of miscarriage, particularly amongst low income women. This is a pretty well-known problem in Latin America, where doctors are so afraid of being accused of performing abortions that they will turn disadvantaged women suffering miscarriages over to the police.

You can have a forgiving culture of solidarity when you don't have legal ambiguity between what is murder and what is a medical emergency. We seem to be between Scylla and Charybdis here, since I don't know how you can legalize abortion without eventually ending up with the dehumanization of the unborn, and I don't know how you can criminalize it without resulting in the dehumanization of pregnant women.
We know the dehumanization of the unborn leads to the dehumanization of the rest of humanity. As Mother Teresa said "We must not be surprised when we hear of murders, killings, of wars, or of hatred...If a mother can kill her own child, what is left but for us to kill each other?"

While a miscarriage should not be criminalized, abortion should be illegal. Doctors should not be allowed to do them. Boyfriends should not be allowed to force women to have them. Women should not feel that they are trapped into having them. Planned Parenthood should not be given hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to promote abortion.

I don't know how big a problem the criminalization of miscarriage is. I do know how big a problem abortion is, even knowing of two cases myself where boyfriends forced abortion on unwilling women. I suspect that is a bigger problem than criminalized miscarriages.
 
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redleghunter

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I actually think the pro-life puritanical misogynists might be a bit of a straw man. Or at least a political creation that has little if anything to do with the pro-life people in the trenches.
My estimate as well. A pseudo narrative to demonize those who disagree with the pro-abortion position.
 
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redleghunter

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Really? I genuinely do not believe you - or at least, I don't believe that you can effectively identify such people. The religious right is rife with folks like that.
Maybe in political leftist caricatures.

I’ve lived in the Big Apple NYC, small cities across the US and even two rural towns and in a very conservative part of Texas. I guess you will tell me I’m blind to what you apparently see, which is a very convenient position to hold. I once had a pastor advise the flock that before we start pointing fingers at others being the problem to do a self examination. That we may just be the problem. Wise words.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Do you have evidence that she is actually pro-abortion? I looked it up, and all I could find was that she identifies as pro-life, so if she really makes the opposite view clear somewhere, could you please provide a reference? I don't think not wanting women to die of ectopic pregnancies automatically makes someone pro-choice. (Granted, I think it's odd that she claims the Catholic Church does not permit the interruption of ectopic pregnancies, since the doctrine of double effect applies there.)
She spends a lot of time criticizing pro-life groups, although she seems very careful not to up and say she is pro-abortion. It seems to me like maintaining plausible deniability so as to not get kicked out of the Catholic Church for actually saying it.

She is wrong about ectopic pregnancies. Double effect applies, and Catholics do not understand the surgical removal of an infected fallopian tube to be an abortion if the removal is needed to restore health by removing a diseased tube. If there were a way to save the baby, or if such is developed in the future, that would be required. As it stands, an abortion is not willed, though the death of the baby is a consequence of removing a diseased organ.
 
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redleghunter

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Why would you get that impression? I don't know what was unclear when I said that the church couldn't operate at that scale. That means the church isn't big enough.
The church is the operation where I live. We are a vital part of the community. I guess you can make your point in big cities where churches are closing down. Wonder why that happens.
 
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redleghunter

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If your church had the commitment you could do something even with a tiny congregation. At least something. Don't just say you are too small. What do they always say? Act locally. That is far more effective than complaining about the bad old pro-life people while you do nothing at the local level.
Amen. I just moved with other members from our parent church to plant one in the next city. The church we were in was moderate in size not even close to a mega church (not our brand anyway) but with all hands and feet working many things get done to include missionaries and community ministries.

Our plant sent out 35 or so folks and once again, with all hands and feet working we are blessed to help provide for our local community. I’m over 50 and I’m one of few old guys there. I was truly amazed at the passion our younger families showed to be part of a church plant. And these are large families. The kids outnumber the adults. Which is good because I coach kiddo baseball and can draw from that large pool of talent. :)
 
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redleghunter

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I'm much more familiar with the evangelical protestant side of things.
Obviously a brand I am not familiar with. Not saying somewhere in some smoky mountain enclave such exists, but you are generalizing.

Sometimes generalizing groups ends up creating a bigoted attitude towards them and by extension demonizing everyone.
 
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redleghunter

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My concern would be the way the criminalization of abortion often turns into the criminalization of miscarriage, particularly amongst low income women. This is a pretty well-known problem in Latin America, where doctors are so afraid of being accused of performing abortions that they will turn disadvantaged women suffering miscarriages over to the police.
What is meant by criminalizing?

Before Roe v Wade every state had laws protecting women when their life was in danger. That would include miscarriage.
 
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chevyontheriver

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What is meant by criminalizing?

Before Roe v Wade every state had laws protecting women when their life was in danger. That would include miscarriage.
Interesting. The criminalization of miscarriage wasn't known as a big problem then. Does anyone have any stats on that from before 1973?
 
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redleghunter

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Interesting. The criminalization of miscarriage wasn't known as a big problem then. Does anyone have any stats on that from before 1973?
I really think such issues are brought up by Americans who were not born during that time. I was a kid and didn’t know but did the research later in HS in our Right to Life group.

I have heard some people even here on CF asserting there would be “abortion policemen” checking out garbage cans to find perpetrators. One even suggested neighbors would report women who were pregnant and then weeks later find out they were not. I guess they would report that to the abortion police. I kid you not. Saw something along those lines when Alabama passed their amendment last year.
 
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Silmarien

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While a miscarriage should not be criminalized, abortion should be illegal. Doctors should not be allowed to do them. Boyfriends should not be allowed to force women to have them. Women should not feel that they are trapped into having them. Planned Parenthood should not be given hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to promote abortion.

What do you mean by "illegal"? Whenever penalties are sought for the woman, you are automatically going to end up in a situation where miscarriages are investigated as potential crimes, and that leads to a fullblown human rights crisis.

I don't know how big a problem the criminalization of miscarriage is. I do know how big a problem abortion is, even knowing of two cases myself where boyfriends forced abortion on unwilling women. I suspect that is a bigger problem than criminalized miscarriages.

I would say that spending up to 35 years in prison for almost dying in a miscarriage is a problem of immense proportions. The situation in countries like El Salvador and Honduras is infamous: Where the penalty for miscarriage is jail

I do agree that coerced abortions are a really serious issue as well, though I think that's a deeper social problem that can't just be legislated away. I mean, there was a horrible case in the Dominican Republic a few years back when someone forced his girlfriend to drink an abortifacient and then rather than taking her to the hospital, murdered her to cover it up.
 
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Silmarien

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What is meant by criminalizing?

Before Roe v Wade every state had laws protecting women when their life was in danger. That would include miscarriage.

I'm referring to the current situation in Central America, not the situation before Roe v. Wade. It's not sensationalism--it's actually happening. I'll give you the link too: Where the penalty for miscarriage is jail

There have been concerns that the wording of certain abortion bills even in this country would effectively criminalize miscarriage (this one, for instance, ), so it's definitely something to be concerned about.
 
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