Eternity, what's the rush.....

[mva1985]

If we agreed that time was limited, what would be the limitation? Here's what I mean -- is there something that I must do in a limited time frame that will impact my eternal salvation?

BFA

Yes there is.

To bad we all don't know what our limited time frame is, but that's life.

 

[StormyOne]

MVA, that's an answer, but not an answer to the questions BFA posed..... was that your intent?

 

[sentipente]

planting a seed that there might be plenty of time (peace & safety) can be very dangerous.

EGW addresses this issue in Christ Object Lessons.

I hope she did not say that peace and safety is the same as plenty of time. That would show a flaw in her comprehension. I am surprised you made that mistake.

 

[sentipente]

Concerns about time reflect a lack of appreciation for infinity and eternity.

 

[AzA]

There may be plenty of time for people to do the same as they have always done and so contribute to the present disorder. There may also be plenty of time for people to re-evaluate what they have always done and choose a different course.

The latter is the more creative option, and there's absolutely no loss in it. Supporting order, adding to order, brings immediate benefits to those participating. And taking stock is always valuable, whether time is "short" or "long." We experience time relationally, and the longer we wait to support order here, the more difficult our collective experience here becomes.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Its only a problem if you believe someone must burn in hell..... If however our focus was living life here to its fullest and help others to do the same (here and now), perhaps some would experience a heaven on earth as it were....

You previously were talking about eternity. Here and now is not eternity. Here and now is time sensitive. very time sensitive. You will never have a heaven on earth if you care about other people because you will know things like what is happening in Haiti are happening throughout your life. Living life to the fullest is a nice phrase but relatively meaningless. fullness is going to be whatever your philosophy says it is and in reality you will never experience the fullness of your philosophy because of the realities of life. Time and resources will dictate what you can actually do. For instance take something as simple as exercise, as we get older especially those of us who work sitting down we have to exercise to protect our health. Just in that limited area we are restricted to what is available within our area. I would rather exercise by playing racquetball but I can't afford that. I would rather play tennis but the rain stops that so I have to go where I can. Thus life is a series of trade off and compromises and choices which all prevent living life fully unless we define that fullness in some way that is completely separate from physical reality.

 

[StormyOne]

You previously were talking about eternity. Here and now is not eternity. Here and now is time sensitive. very time sensitive. You will never have a heaven on earth if you care about other people because you will know things like what is happening in Haiti are happening throughout your life. Living life to the fullest is a nice phrase but relatively meaningless. fullness is going to be whatever your philosophy says it is and in reality you will never experience the fullness of your philosophy because of the realities of life. Time and resources will dictate what you can actually do. For instance take something as simple as exercise, as we get older especially those of us who work sitting down we have to exercise to protect our health. Just in that limited area we are restricted to what is available within our area. I would rather exercise by playing racquetball but I can't afford that. I would rather play tennis but the rain stops that so I have to go where I can. Thus life is a series of trade off and compromises and choices which all prevent living life fully unless we define that fullness in some way that is completely separate from physical reality.

time is a part of eternity I would think... perhaps we need to redefine what heaven might be. I think that God has given humans everything needed to solve the problems that plague humankind... The problem is we seem to choose division, isolation and self-destruction. I believe that peace is possible but we have chosen another way... Does that mean God will not intervene until we learn the lesson? I have no idea.... I am still pondering that.... We also might need to define or redefine what it means to live life fully. I don't know why the definition has to be separate from physical reality, but you mentioned that it might have to be, could you elaborate?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

So if there's no knife at your back, you don't have to do anything? Or, as Dostoevsky tried to argue, "If God doesn't exist, everything is permissible?"

My sense is that if you and I come to a nexus, we both have issues and skills, and we both have a moment to intersect, that's reason enough to make our moment a positive experience.

There are many other "reasons," none of which require a ticking clock.
I think I agree with those atheists who say that if people need God as a reason to play well with others, may God live long and prosper.
And if they also need time as a reason to play well with others, let's run the treadmill as long as we can.

Time is always the knife at your back. We don't live in eternity we live in the temporal. If every thing is permissible then we are all in trouble as power over others will become the knife at your back.

The reason to come to a moment of intersection is because we realize that we are indeed subject to time otherwise we could just keep putting it off or ignoring it because frankly we don't always feel like doing the positive thing.

You later wrote:

"Why focus on getting to a place other than the place we currently occupy?"

Because where we currently occupy is doomed to a time sensitive end. It is filled with much negativity even if we say that we should try to stay positive.

You write:
"When we pursue right action, we create the heavenly. We we pursue wrong action, we create the hellish. What could be a more compelling motivation?"

The question then becomes what is right action? How do you know what right action is. What if what you think is right action conflicts what someone else thinks is right action? You could say right action is selflessness but is that true? For example I could give up all my possessions to the homeless or donate all my property to some charity, a very selfless thing to do. What about my family, they are not homeless, my child can no longer attend college and I look terrible going to work and can't get adequate rest and lose my job. Ultimately 5 people become homeless because I did what I think is the right thing to do.

So ultimately the motivation has to be based upon a reasoned position which takes into account the reality of time and physical reality. And ultimately the ticking of the clock is essential to our lives and understanding and motivations. It can't be separated from our lives the Biblical admonitions simply reinforce the reality that we have finite lives and we have to make choices and decisions and other people have finite lives to make choices and decisions also.

Getting back to my original point if we all get to the same place, the place of eternal life no matter what our choices and decisions then indeed everything is permissible, love or hate. If however this life is all there is then we are dealing with a different philosophical situation and we don't have to think about eternity at all. But that is not what the thread began with so it is beyond the current discussion.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

We also might need to define or redefine what it means to live life fully.

You were the one who used it so you should define it. I think it has no real meaning, when something does not really have meaning it is impossible to experience.

 

[Avonia]

You later wrote:

"Why focus on getting to a place other than the place we currently occupy?"

I wrote that.

 

[Avonia]

How do you know what right action is.

It depends on the level of discernment of any given individual. For some, right action flows naturally from the understanding of principles. For others, right action starts with directives - like "do not kill."

And everything in-between.

 

[StormyOne]

You were the one who used it so you should define it. I think it has no real meaning, when something does not really have meaning it is impossible to experience.

Fair enough RC, you believe it has no real meaning, and impossible to experience, I respect that.... no need for me to make a feeble attempt to define something that is you feel does not exist... thanks for your comments....

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Fair enough RC, you believe it has no real meaning, and impossible to experience, I respect that.... no need for me to make a feeble attempt to define something that is you feel does not exist... thanks for your comments....

All you have to do is show that it does have real meaning...once it has meaning we can decide if it can be experienced. You can't experience something that can't be defined because how would you know if you experienced it in the first place. You can't say I know what it is because I have experienced it but I can't tell you what I experienced, what would be the evidence that you experienced it at all? It becomes so subjective that it becomes meaningless.

 

[Avonia]

All you have to do is show that it does have real meaning...once it has meaning we can decide if it can be experienced.

How will you experience Heaven as something more positive than Earth?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

How will you experience Heaven as something more positive than Earth?

Rather a nonsequitor isn't it? Asking to define what someone means by a term by asking how something that no one has experienced yet is more positive than what we have experienced. Of course the answer to you question is hope. Just as we hope here on earth for something better in the future perhaps a new job or new place to live etc. Now if I hope to live a life to the fullest in the future I would need some kind of definition about what that "fullest" will be. Hope for a new job or new place to live all have expectations which define the hope. those hopes and expectations will ultimately help you choose the job or the place to live.

Heaven has those expectations and those hopes are incorporated into the idea of heaven. Though of course the question is completely flawed as it expects an answer to come from the projection of how I would feel in the future looking at the past.

 

[Avonia]

Rather a nonsequitor isn't it? Asking to define what someone means by a term by asking how something that no one has experienced yet is more positive than what we have experienced. Of course the answer to you question is hope.

It seems that hope requires the same extension into the future.

 

[sentipente]

You previously were talking about eternity. Here and now is not eternity. Here and now is time sensitive. very time sensitive.

Are you referring to this "here and now" or to every conceivable "here and now.?"

 

[AzA]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have more abundantly."

Jesus talked about life and everlasting life and abundant life a lot. I don't think it was a meaningless concept. Nor do I get the sense it was about time.

I'm still enjoying Joe's point from page 1: "We are being saved by his life. It is the power of an endless life, without corners; no stop and go signs. This is the tree of life. No evenings and mornings."

Well said.

 

[AzA]

When we pursue right action, we create the heavenly. We we pursue wrong action, we create the hellish. What could be a more compelling motivation?

Remember that TED presentation by Jonathan Haig about the distinct drives behind liberal and conservative modes? Part of the research he presented said that some people seem to need a stick in order to choose the good.

If memory serves he cited the development of the hell doctrine as one example of such a motivator.

To the degree that judgment and understanding are established along with knowledge, I would agree! However, how does one advance from knowledge to having good judgment and understanding about all that knowledge...?

This life proceeds with knowledge, lots of knowledge about earthly things. But it takes fear of danger or loss of life, limb, or property before judgment and understanding are established.

One advances from ignorance to knowledge via consequence, experience, and time. Any other bases are tenuous.

I don't have to fear fire to know not to light my hair with it. I just have to know what fire does around flammable objects.

Perhaps, if God is "in a rush," he will accelerate the speed with which we understand the consequences and experience new concepts. Otherwise he'll just have adult toddlers running around the New Jerusalem and it will be Earth II -- chaos in another dimension. There's no point.

We haven't learned how to manage our current order.

 

[Avonia]

One advances from ignorance to knowledge via consequence, experience, and time. Any other bases are tenuous.

That's right. And more rigid structures (the stick) are sometimes necessary to provide the basic conditions for learning. Thus, the ten commandments. But Jesus suggested through a greater expression of love there is a greater freedom. Sanctification.