Eternity, what's the rush.....

[AzA]

But Jesus suggested through a greater expression of love there is a greater freedom. Sanctification.

Yes. I'm trying to trace why people think this greater freedom must mean a lack of order, and am coming up short with an explanation.

Whatever the case, I think that a truly free man doesn't need to shoot his enemies. He has other means of dealing with them.

 

[OldStudent]

In other places that I visit, and several conversations that I've had with people regarding the state of the world the issue of time usually comes up.... The usual comments are, "time is short," "the world can't last much longer," " time is winding down" or some variation of that.... and with those statements is usually the plea to get ready before its "too late."

A couple of thoughts. If God, or The Creator exists in eternity, then why would he have to rush? I mean if you subtract 10,000 yrs from eternity, you still have what? Eternity... Just because we think that things will come to an end doesn't necessarily make it so does it? I mean theoretically this condition can go on for some time before God would have to intervene.... Second thought, if you are in a relationship with someone, aren't you usually happy to see them whenever they show up? So what's the "get ready before its too late" thing all about?

Thoughts?

This world is NOT my home. I want to go home. There is a Father anxiously awaiting the homecoming of His kids. The 6000 years of this worlds broken history is a mere bloody scratch on the timeline of eternity. All heaven has been upset by it and wants it over. The worlds society is diving quickly (there it is again) toward self-annihilation so there is an inevitable termination of this world as we know it - God be thanked. So let's get this behind us as quickly as possible and yet bring as many of our friends as will come.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

There is a Father anxiously awaiting the homecoming of His kids.

I agree with you. I also believe that He need not wait to be in communion with His kids. He can and does interact with His children today.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

This world is NOT my home. I want to go home. There is a Father anxiously awaiting the homecoming of His kids. The 6000 years of this worlds broken history is a mere bloody scratch on the timeline of eternity. All heaven has been upset by it and wants it over. The worlds society is diving quickly (there it is again) toward self-annihilation so there is an inevitable termination of this world as we know it - God be thanked. So let's get this behind us as quickly as possible and yet bring as many of our friends as will come.

Humans were created to inhabit earth..... i.e. humans will not inhabit heaven, they will inhabit earth... refurbished.... we are all connected, there are no friends, only brothers and sisters whom The Creator wants with him also.... as for what heaven is upset by, I cannot venture to guess since I have never been to heaven, and neither has anyone who claims to know what's happening there....

 

[OldStudent]

I agree with you. I also believe that He need not wait to be in communion with His kids. He can and does interact with His children today.

BFA

Understood. How does e-mail or even the 'phone compare with seeing the twinkle in ones eye, feeling the breath on ones cheek, or a touch? To have THAT aspect of interface with Jesus will be... so... what superlative even suggests a fit. Here there is embedded in everything the urgent backgound of limited time. There the very concept of limited time goes away. It's whole new aspect, as one entering the "sunset years," I think I could get used to with considerable appreciation.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Understood. How does e-mail or even the 'phone compare with seeing the twinkle in ones eye, feeling the breath on ones cheek, or a touch? To have THAT aspect of interface with Jesus will be... so... what superlative even suggests a fit. Here there is embedded in everything the urgent backgound of limited time. There the very concept of limited time goes away. It's whole new aspect, as one entering the "sunset years," I think I could get used to with considerable appreciation.

My concern is that we (believers, Christianity, whatever term you prefer) spend so much time focusing on a future event that we miss the blessing that God has for us in the here and now. I would want to know God even if there were no Heaven, even if I never had the chance to meet Him face-to-face.

BFA

 

[OldStudent]

Humans were created to inhabit earth..... i.e. humans will not inhabit heaven, they will inhabit earth... refurbished.... we are all connected, there are no friends, only brothers and sisters whom The Creator wants with him also.... as for what heaven is upset by, I cannot venture to guess since I have never been to heaven, and neither has anyone who claims to know what's happening there....

My imagination runs a bit wild here so I hope you are in for a chuckle.

"Be fruitful and multiply." The first instruction given to man in the context of an eternity before them. Implicit in that is a population density problem after a while unless God at some point set mass menopause. Why not colonize worlds in other galaxies?

When this world was created it was as much a part of "heaven" as any other place. Sin created the distinction of "us" and "them." We were the ones placed under quarantine under a guerrilla ruler. When restoration is complete this earth will be not only reinstated it will become the new capitol. Yes, we will have an address here. Beyond that I could easily digest the idea of a "country home" - a world in another galaxy with our (wife and my) name on it. I already have plans sketched for it.

How could heaven not be upset with goings on here. Jesus had to leave heaven. He was put through hell over it. He will never be the same again. Is the roll of "guardian" or "protector" normal for angels? I was personally involved in a situation where an angel caused me injury shoving me out of a deadly situation. He will be delighted when such "opportuities" are no more. The chief angel and a third of their peers were lost to heaven. If we are even mildly upset over the desolation in Haiti, could God or our "personal" angels simply blow off the debaucle here? True, none of us has been to heaven to see what they think of our situation but we read of God's patience and grace in Him being not willing that any should perish. "Unwillingness" is a word with an element of consternation but also hopefull. It is not a tranquil term.

 

[OldStudent]

My concern is that we (believers, Christianity, whatever term you prefer) spend so much time focusing on a future event that we miss the blessing that God has for us in the here and now. I would want to know God even if there were no Heaven, even if I never had the chance to meet Him face-to-face.

BFA

That event is our hope to say nothing of God's or He would not have invested so much in it. In general it is not real enough for most of us. It is a good place to be that we love God even if we were unaware of heaven. But it IS a hope He has revealed to us. It is right, proper, even courteous for us to accept the bouqet so expressive of love He is offering us.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

That event is our hope to say nothing of God's

I conclude that our hope is in Jesus Christ. That hope would be there independent of an afterlife.

In general it is not real enough for most of us.

How could it be? It is something we have never experienced.

It is a good place to be that we love God even if we were unaware of heaven.

It is about communing with Him in the here and now. It is about understanding what He is doing through us in the here and now. It is about embracing what He has for us in the here and now. In my mind, these are important considerations.

BFA

 

[AzA]

I have no quibble with the largeness of the universe or expectations of travel through it. Long live the spirit of exploration -- both outwards and inwards.

There's a certain dissonance, however, in arguing that this world's events are "just a bloody scratch in time" but also arguing that the omnipresent Lifegiver has to migrate from an untroubled spot of the universe because of this same bloody scratch. I wouldn't move across country because my daughter nicked herself in the kitchen. If she was distressed (over a nick??) I would talk her through the shock, tell her to get a bandaid if necessary, and remind her of how to handle knives safely. Skype is great for such things; neither are we Fatherless or without knowledge or T-cells. God has better means than Skype for communicating. And we have unparalleled lessons in how to cook here.

I don't find strong evidence for the idea that we have been cordoned off or quarantined. I don't find strong evidence for the idea that God is absent or will progressively absent Himself. I think the idea of the Holy Spirit withdrawing Himself from Earth is a kind of twisted slander on the Godhead. And I wonder what such ideas add to our perception of God -- especially when the parallel claim is that it's because Lucifer and humans misperceived God in the beginning that we have soiled diapers now.

 

[sentipente]

I think Aza just absolutely sewed it up. Nothing to add. Back to OldStudent.

 

[sentipente]

OldStudent, when you are upset you don't make the journey to rescue; you come to kick butt.

 

[StormyOne]

Old Student, just a few thoughts. Someone who is in complete control and knows everything would be upset because? Jesus being God, and God who remains unchangeable, yet you believe that Jesus was changed by his work here on earth? Where (aside from egw) do you get the idea that humans will live on other worlds? A God who is everywhere and all-powerful requires the assistance of angels because? You've introduced something disconcerting, in Haiti 150,000+ perished, if you believe your personal angel pushed you out of harm's way, what then can we say about those who recently perished in Haiti? Their angels were taking a break?

 

[Avonia]

A God who is everywhere and all-powerful requires the assistance of angels because?

I've been pondering something interesting (well, to me at least) about why downward delegation makes sense in creation. So I don't know that it's as much about whether God needs angels - or humans - but how each stratum of creation has its own set of primary conditions and center/scope of relationship. Otherwise, we could just as easily ask why God doesn't do everything for us - directly - as well.

So, as we grow and develop new capacity, our domains shift - or expand. When we are just starting out and learning, a more limited domain is a more ideal habitat.

I started to think about this when reading the book Flatland and pondering its significance to the story of Job. In Flatland, if you had somebody from 3-d Sphereland with ill intent continually "dropping down" and popping people on the head in 2-d Flatland, learning would be disrupted. Because it's an overlay of a much larger domain on a smaller domain that tampers with learning. This is my primary issue with the story of Job.

So, in the sense of angels continually "dropping in" and tampering, I agree. But in the sense of delegating across the spectrum of creation, I think it's an interesting question. Whether angels exist or not.

 

[StormyOne]

I've been pondering something interesting (well, to me at least) about why downward delegation makes sense in creation. So I don't know that it's as much about whether God needs angels - or humans - but how each stratum of creation has its own set of primary conditions and center/scope of relationship. Otherwise, we could just as easily ask why God doesn't do everything for us - directly - as well.

But isn't that what theology teaches, i.e. that God does do everything for us... supplies our needs, provides protection, gives us strength, showers us with blessing, etc....

So, as we grow and develop new capacity, our domains shift - or expand. When we are just starting out and learning, a more limited domain is a more ideal habitat.

So initially humans needed to believe that there were angels watching over them? But as humanity matured, that concept was no longer needed?

I started to think about this when reading the book Flatland and pondering its significance to the story of Job. In Flatland, if you had somebody from 3-d Sphereland with ill intent continually "dropping down" and popping people on the head in 2-d Flatland, learning would be disrupted. Because it's an overlay of a much larger domain on a smaller domain that tampers with learning. This is my primary issue with the story of Job.

Is it a good book? Would you recommend it? My problem with the story of Job is the whole idea that Job could lose is family, and not be devastated/depressed and that given a replacement family he is okay with that.... I don't know any humans with that capacity to absorb that kind of loss and then be okay...

So, in the sense of angels continually "dropping in" and tampering, I agree. But in the sense of delegating across the spectrum of creation, I think it's an interesting question. Whether angels exist or not.

I guess the question is why an all-powerful being needs to delegate... Of course it reinforces my idea that there is One Super Being who is able to manifest itself in various ways including angels, "the spirit", the "christ" and yet remain a Super Being...

 

[Avonia]

But isn't that what theology teaches, i.e. that God does do everything for us... supplies our needs, provides protection, gives us strength, showers us with blessing, etc....

Well, at least for the one person who was told to not board the train that went on to crash. The rest were out of luck.

Is it a good book? Would you recommend it?

I think you would really enjoy it. And it's only a buck or two: Amazon.com: Flatland (9781607961024): Edwin A. Abbott: Books

Of course it reinforces my idea that there is One Super Being who is able to manifest itself in various ways including angels, "the spirit", the "christ" and yet remain a Super Being...

I also go back to the idea of being created in the image of Creator - being a co-creator. So, there's no need for delegation, but the opportunity to be delegated to. As a parent, I think about why I don't do everything for my child - but let my child have the joy of learning and creating.

I may encourage my child to help my neighbor with a project, even though I could "do it better."

 

[StormyOne]

Well, at least for the one person who was told to not board the train that went on to crash. The rest were out of luck.

yeah, that's an unfortunate side of that belief... almost obscene as far as I am concern, and it does make God appear capricious.....

I think you would really enjoy it. And it's only a buck or two: Amazon.com: Flatland (9781607961024): Edwin A. Abbott: Books

cool, I see that its in ebook form so I will pick it up shortly....

I also go back to the idea of being created in the image of Creator - being a co-creator. So, there's no need for delegation, but the opportunity to be delegated to. As a parent, I think about why I don't do everything for my child - but let my child have the joy of learning and creating.

I may encourage my child to help my neighbor with a project, even though I could "do it better."

true.... we grow by learning.....