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That is not the meaning of apostasy in the Greek dictionaries I quoted for you.To apostasy is to turn from what the scriptures teach and follow another means to be reconciled to God.
Kayla,I didn't read through this whole thread because there are too much pages, so someone may have already brought this up, but how about James 5:19-20? I just read it today:
"19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
It says that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Which means the person, who wandered from the truth (meaning he had truth before), was on his way to losing his soul.
I can't think of any other explanation...
Oz4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (ESV, emphasis added).
Kayla,
That verse from James is harmonious with Hebrews 6:4-6:
Oz
I didn't read through this whole thread because there are too much pages, so someone may have already brought this up, but how about James 5:19-20? I just read it today:
"19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
It says that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Which means the person, who wandered from the truth (meaning he had truth before), was on his way to losing his soul.
I can't think of any other explanation...
I can, he is not talking about a Christian, but one who needs to be converted just as the scripture says, James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. Just as James used the word in James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. Throughout all of scripture you will not find the Holy Spirit inspiring the saints to be addressed as sinners. The sinners are always lost, separated from God in need of being saved. Check for yourself, here are several to demonstrate the point; Pro 11:31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the ungodly and the sinner.
Pro 13:6 Righteousness guards him whose way is blameless, But wickedness overthrows the sinner. Matt 9:13 But go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." Luke 15:7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
This book is addressed to brothers and sisters in Christ. this is also affirmed in the verses before 5:20, James 5:19 which readsJames, a servant[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings.
2 Count it all joy, my brothers [better translated as brothers & sisters],[b] when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing (ESV, emphasis added).
It is straining at a gnat to try to make this refer to the non-converted. The context of the whole book of James and 5:19 refutes that view.My brothers [and sisters], if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back (ESV, emphasis added).
I can, he is not talking about a Christian, but one who needs to be converted just as the scripture says, James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. Just as James used the word in James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. Throughout all of scripture you will not find the Holy Spirit inspiring the saints to be addressed as sinners. The sinners are always lost, separated from God in need of being saved. Check for yourself, here are several to demonstrate the point; Pro 11:31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the ungodly and the sinner.
Pro 13:6 Righteousness guards him whose way is blameless, But wickedness overthrows the sinner. Matt 9:13 But go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." Luke 15:7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
But the verse says "if any wanders from the truth", implying that they once had truth. You cannot wander away from a place you were never at.
But any one of us could be correct in one place and wrong in another place in Scripture in our hermeneutics.That would depend on the place that the context is talking about. If they are those in their midst that have heard the good news and have not received it into their hearts, they had the truth presented unto them but they wander away from that truth by refusing to apply it. Besides that, how about all those verses I showed you where only the lost are called sinners and James using the same phrase earlier talking about getting saved. The scripture cannot be right in one place and be wrong in another, they must walk hand in hand. I can agree to disagree.
iwb,
The problem I see with your interpretation is that it is talking about Christian. Take a read of the first 4 verses of the book:
This book is addressed to brothers and sisters in Christ. this is also affirmed in the verses before 5:20, James 5:19 which reads
It is straining at a gnat to try to make this refer to the non-converted. The context of the whole book of James and 5:19 refutes that view.
That is your opinion of believers falling away not what the passage makes clear, nor does it walk hand in hand with the teachings of the scripture. I have shown you several times John 8:30 and again, you overlook it and respond not as to what it means if it doesn't mean exactly like it reads. And I am not trying to convince you of eternal security at all, if scripture is enough, I know that nothing I can say would accomplish what the word has failed to do. My duty is simply to show what scripture says and that I have done, the ball is in your court as they say. Each tub sits on it's own bottom.One warning of the danger of believers falling away would be enough to refute absolute eternal security. But we have it in passages such as 2 Thess 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:19; Heb 6:4-6; James 5:20. It's too late to try to convince me of eternal security as these verses refute such a view. Oz
But the verse says "if any wanders from the truth", implying that they once had truth. You cannot wander away from a place you were never at.
Hebrews 6:4-6
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because,[a] to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.
The problem is: in this church age, once you are saved by God, there is no way YOU can unsave yourself no matter what you do.
iwb,The gnat may have went into your eye and blurred it making you missed this in chapter 1:26-27 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this ones religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
James 4:4-6 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble. Just as John wrote about those who love the world 1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
You too avoid showing anywhere in scripture where one called a sinner is not an unsaved person, is that an oversight, or couldn't examples be found?
That is your opinion of believers falling away not what the passage makes clear, nor does it walk hand in hand with the teachings of the scripture. I have shown you several times John 8:30 and again, you overlook it and respond not as to what it means if it doesn't mean exactly like it reads. And I am not trying to convince you of eternal security at all, if scripture is enough, I know that nothing I can say would accomplish what the word has failed to do. My duty is simply to show what scripture says and that I have done, the ball is in your court as they say. Each tub sits on it's own bottom.
As for John 8:30, you wrote, ' I have shown you several times John 8:30 and again, you overlook it and respond not as to what it means if it doesn't mean exactly like it reads'.Believers Still Sin
It is not difficult to convince most believers from Scripture as well as from experience that sin is still a part of their existence. They sometimes act carnally (1 Cor 3:1-3). The promise of continual cleansing of sin as they walk in the light (1 John 1:7) as well as the present tense used for the confession of sins (1:9 {1 John 1:9}) suggest that sin is continually present with believers. To say we have no sin, John wrote, is self-deception and impossible for believers (1:8 {1 John 1:8}). Although the personal identity of the believer is in Christ, and thus in the new man which is being transformed into His image, the manner of life of the old man remains a part of the believers experience. This is why Paul directed believers to put off the practices of the old man (Eph 4:22; Col 3:8-9).
the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do : behavior that does not agree with what someone claims to believe or feel.
1
: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2
: an act or instance of hypocrisy
1) to find fault with, blame 2) to accuse, condemn
Dean,Let me put it another way.
Jesus said:
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -John 10:29 (KJV)
If sin, causes you to come out of the Father's hand, if you, choosing to sin, takes you out of the Father's hand, and costs you your salvation, then God ceases to omnipotent (all powerful). Sin, and man (namely you) are able to overpower and take yourself from His care.
Now which is corect?
No man, not even yourself can take you out of God's hand, or is sin and man more powerful than God?
Either Jesus and scriptures are correct, or Jesus told a lie and subsequently the scriptures lie also, which means sin and man are more powerful than God.
God Bless
Till all are one.
The gracious power of God is comprehensively sufficient to protect every born-again Christian believer forever. But a believer can in the end be lost, because salvation is conditional. None of our enemies will be able to snatch us out of the Father's/Jesus' hands.If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned' (ESV).
Whoever believes [Gk present tense - continues to believe] in the Son has [Gk present tense - continues to have] eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (John 3:36 ESV)
Thus, eternal life only continues as long as a person continues to believe. He or she can commit apostasy by not continuing to believe in Christ for eternal life.Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes [Gk present tense - continues to believe] has [[Gk present tense - continues to have] eternal life (John 6:47 ESV).
Dean,
This is what happens when you read John 10:28-29 in isolation from the rest of John's Gospel. It is true that 'I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.... no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand'.
BUT this is what can happen. Take a read of John 15:6. This is in the context of being in the vine - God's vine - and his is the vinedresser (15:1). This is what John 15:6 states,
The gracious power of God is comprehensively sufficient to protect every born-again Christian believer forever. But a believer can in the end be lost, because salvation is conditional. None of our enemies will be able to snatch us out of the Father's/Jesus' hands.
BUT ... BUT, any Christian can turn from Jesus, enter into disbelief, commit apostasy and perish by a wilful act of their own. That's what John 15:6 teaches.
Therefore, John 10:28-29 is not an absolute that guarantees once-saved-always-saved (not biblical language). Eternal life is granted to those who continue to believe. We know this from verses in John such as John 3:35; 6:47,
Thus, eternal life only continues as long as a person continues to believe. He or she can commit apostasy by not continuing to believe in Christ for eternal life.
I know people for whom this has happened and is continuing to happen - apostasy - and they were once vibrant Christians.
John 10:28-29 cannot be read in isolation apart from John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6.
I have to be honest with what the text says, based on the tenses of the original language.
I do not think that you will like this kind of news (and it shoudn't be new news for you), but that is what the texts say.
And have a guess what? 1 Timothy 1:19 and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirm that this can happen. People can continue to believe or to discontinue to belief. They then move from eternal life to eternal damnation. That's how I see the Bible unfolding.
I have to be honest with the biblical text and in this case, with John's Gospel.
In Christ, Oz
neither shall any pluck them out of my hand; Christ's sheep are in his hands, being put there by God the Father, both as an instance of his love to Christ, and them; and this was done from all eternity, even when they were chosen in him; so that they were in the hands of Christ, before they were in the loins of Adam; and were preserved in him, notwithstanding Adam's fall, and through the ruins of it. To be in the hands of Christ, is to be high in his esteem and favour; the saints are a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of their God; they are a signet on his right hand that shall never be plucked off; they are engraven on the palms of his hands: to be in the hands of Christ, is to be in his possession, and at his dispose, as all the elect of God are; and to be under his guidance, care, and protection, as they be; they are fed according to the integrity of his heart, and guided by the skilfulness of his hands; they are always under his care and watchful eye, who protects them from all their enemies, and hides them in the hollow of his hand: hence, because they are so, they are called "the sheep of his hand", Ps 95:7. And none shall ever pluck them from thence; no man can do it, not any false teacher can remove them from Christ, by all the art and cunning he is master of; nor any violent persecutor, by all the force and power he can use; nor can any sin, or snare, or temptation, draw them out of Christ's hands; nor any adversity whatever separate them from him: they must be safe, and always abide there, who are in the hands of Christ; for his hands have laid the foundations of the heavens and the earth, they grasp the whole universe, and hold all things together; and who then can pluck any out of these hands? Moreover, Christ, as Mediator, has all power in heaven and earth; and even as man, he is the man of God's right hand, made strong for himself.
fwtizw,v \{fo-tid'-zo}
[SIZE=-1]1) to give light, to shine 2) to enlighten, light up, illumine 3) to bring to light, render evident 3a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all 4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge 4a) to instruct, to inform, teach 4b) to give understanding to [/SIZE]
V. The Rest of the New Testament
1. Hebrews. Hb. uses the verb "fwtizw" twice of Christians, the reference being to the beginning of the Christian life, 6:4; 10:32; ->1, 382, 21 ff.; IV. 1005, 35 ff. Baptism is in view. But the use of the verb is not developed and there is no fixed baptismal terminology -> 357, 19 ff. Illumination takes place at baptism, but the verb does not denote this technically; it simply refers to the process of illumination as such.
The Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.
Hb. 6:6. (aduvaton touV apax fwtisqentas) "palin anakainizein eiV metanoian" "to bring to conversion again." The seriousness of the distinctive teaching of Hb. that there is no second repentance is here shown from the standpoint of the Christian teacher who is speaking. He and his fellow-teachers cannot bring complete apostates to a new beginning which will lead to conversion. The miracle of becoming a "kainh ktisiV" (-> 449) ocurs only once.
to renew them again unto repentance, is a thing impossible: by "repentance" is meant, not baptism of repentance; nor admission to a solemn form of public repentance in the church; nor a legal repentance, but an evangelical one: and so to be "renewed" unto it is not to be baptized again, or to be restored anew to the church by repentance, and absolution; but must be understood either of renovation of the soul, in order to repentance; or of the reforming of the outward conversation, as an evidence of it; or of a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed "again" to repentance does not suppose that persons may have true repentance and lose it; for though truly penitent persons may lose the exercise of this grace for a time, yet the grace itself can never be lost: moreover, these apostates before described had only a show of repentance, a counterfeit one; such as Cain, Pharaoh, and Judas had; and consequently, the renewing of them again to repentance, is to that which they only seemed to have, and to make pretensions unto; now to renew them to a true repentance, which they once made a profession of, the apostle says is a thing "impossible": the meaning of which is not only that it is difficult; or that it is rare and unusual; or that it is unsuitable and improper; but it is absolutely impossible: it is impossible to these men to renew themselves to repentance; renovation is the work of the Holy Ghost, and not of man; and repentance is God's gift, and not in man's power; and it is impossible for ministers to renew them, to restore and bring them back, by true repentance; yea, it is impossible to God himself, not through any impotence in him, but from the nature of the sin these men are guilty of; for by the high, though outward attainments they arrive unto, according to the description of them, their sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost, for which no sacrifice can be offered up, and of which there is no remission, and so no repentance; for these two go together, and for which prayer is not to be made; see Mt 12:32 and chiefly because to renew such persons to repentance, is repugnant to the determined will of God, who cannot go against his own purposes and resolutions; and so the Jews {l} speak of repentance being withheld by God from Pharaoh, and, from the people of Israel; of which they understand Ex 9:16 and say, that when the holy blessed God withholds repentance from a sinner, bwvl lwky wnya, "he cannot repent"; but must die in his wickedness which he first committed of his own will; and they further observe {m}, that he that profanes the name of God has it not in his power to depend on repentance, nor can his iniquity be expiated on the day of atonement, or be removed by chastisement:
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