Eternal Security VS Conditional Security

[~Anastasia~]

Welcome to CF.

Yes they did speak of falling away, question is did that mean they lost there salvation or did they never really believe?

They did more than just "believe".

They have been enlightened

They have tasted of the heavenly gift

They have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit

They have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come

And then they fell away.

To return, they would again crucify to themselves the Son of God.

Baptism was considered the beginning of enlightenment. To taste the heavenly gift was to receive Holy Communion. Even if you don't agree with that, to be made partakers of the Holy Spirit should not be debateable to any - these were believers who went through all the normal initial stages. They had already experienced the power of God.

And they fell away.

They can't be renewed to repentance because "they would again crucify the Son of God".

This passage (I quoted from Hebrews 6:4-7) isn't only about falling away from belief. It's about the necessity of living the life of a Christian. It speaks of yielding fruit, ministering to others, and God remembering our deeds. We must be not only hearers of the word, but also doers of the word.

If this were the only Scripture and that was all we were basing the idea on, then we might not be able to say so. But Scripture is full of passages that speak of the necessity of persevering.

And Hebrews 10:26 is even more sobering - For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

We must continue to follow Christ.

For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. (v. 36)

Why would we need endurance if our remaining in the faith didn't matter?

 

[ClementofA]

John 6:37-40. Note that in v.37, the Greek word for "comes" is "erchomenon" which is a present tense participle. This verse correctly reads: All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one coming to Me, I shall not cast out. The verb tense is significant because not being cast out is dependent on the continual action of "coming" to Jesus. In other words, a believer can cease in coming to Jesus and no longer be eternally secure. That is why Scripture emphasizes persevering in the faith. Saving faith is not a one-time deal when we first believe, but requires ongoing faith and relationship with the Lord. Same thing with v.40 as the word "believes" in the Greek is a present tense participle - pisteuōn - "believing," thus rendered: "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone beholding the Son and believing in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day.” The action of continuing to believe is conditional. Therefore, if one ceases to believe, salvation is not assured of.

John 5:24. Same line of argumentation as the above as the Greek verb tense is important. The verse should read "Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me, he has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." If a believer chooses to stop hearing and believing, he/she no longer has eternal life, does come into judgment and has not passed out of death into life.

John 10:27-29. The promises/assurance of vs.28-29 are contingent upon v.27. Only those sheep who listen and follow are privy to the promises of vs.28-29 - conditional - not unconditional.

John 3:16. Again, this verse accurately reads: "For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life." The action of continuing to believe is conditional for eternal life.

Heb 10:10. This verse basically states that the Jesus' atoning sacrifice is sufficient for the propitiation of sin - once and for all. Does this then mean that all past, present and future sins are automatically forgiven as a result? No, because the atonement was applied to our past sins when we were made alive in Christ at our conversion. According to Rom 3:25 "whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;" Our future sins as well as our present sins need to be repented in order for forgiveness to occur. No repentance = no forgiveness = no salvation. That is why 1 John 3:7 states: "Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous."

Eph 2:8-9. You cite vs.8-9 but note that in the very next verse it states that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works. Cognitive faith alone does not save. That is why James wrote that faith without works is dead (Js 2:17) and we are justifed by works and not by faith alone (Js 2:24). Conditional - not unconditional.

1 John 5:13. Isn't it then pertinent to know what "these things" are? For example, earlier I cited 1 Jn 3:7 where it states that we are righteous IF we practice righteousness. V.10 states that anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God but instead of the devil. Jn 2:17 states that the one who does the will of God abided forever. Conversely, those who don't, don't abide forever. 1 Jn 3:14 states: " We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death." This is a conditional statement.

Christians are fond of quoting John 3:16 as proof of their unconditional security but not so fond of quoting Heb 5:9 which requires their ongoing obedience as well. Conditional - not unconditional.

How do you explain:

"{For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." --Philippians 1:6

 

[ClementofA]

If salvation is conditioned on obedience, then it is only for the self-righteous.

If a Christian can't reject his salvation, then he has no libertarian free will [LFW] and is a robot.

Salvation is a gift of grace. Receiving and retaining the gift is of one's own LFW. That doesn't make the receiver "self-righteous", but righteous "in Christ" by virtue of the gift of His righteousness.

His gift of salvation is "not conditioned on obedience" but on acceptance of the gift which produces the fruit of obedience in the believer's life.

But the true believer will always prevail in holiness because it is the nature of the new birth to do so.

Salvation is a gift. A gift can be rejected after it has been accepted & returned to the giver.

 

[Dave L]

If a Christian can't reject his salvation, then he has no libertarian free will [LFW] and is a robot.

Salvation is a gift of grace. Receiving and retaining the gift is of one's own LFW. That doesn't make the receiver "self-righteous", but righteous "in Christ" by virtue of the gift of His righteousness.

His gift of salvation is "not conditioned on obedience" but on acceptance of the gift which produces the fruit of obedience in the believer's life.



Salvation is a gift. A gift can be rejected after it has been accepted & returned to the giver.

Then only the self-righteous save themselves.

 

[ClementofA]

Then only the self-righteous save themselves.

If a drowning person lets the lifeguard save him, he's not his own savior. He was unable to save himself.

 

[Dave L]

If a drowning person lets the lifeguard save him, he's not his own savior. He was unable to save himself.

If you "let" God save you, you are ultimately the savior based on your self-righteousness.

 

[RDKirk]

"The story has been told of a beautiful incident that occurred many years ago in the North of England. A young Salvation Army girl, only recently saved, was overflowing with the joy of the Lord and was eager to share her salvation with all others. Walking along the street of a little Durham city, she saw a tall, gray-haired man coming toward her and, stranger though he was, she stopped him and said, "Pardon me, sir, but are you saved?" The tall stranger leaned over toward her and answered, with a quizzical smile playing on his kindly face: "My dear, do you mean ESOTHEN, or SOZOMENOS, or SOTHESOMAI?" The Salvation Army girl was bewildered - it was "all Greek" to her! She did not know that she had stopped bishop Westcott, one of the greatest of Greek scholars and an editor of the famous Westcott and Hort edition of the Greek New Testament. He had asked her, using three different tenses of the Greek verb: "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?" And then bishop Westcott, who was indeed saved and knew that he was saved, lovingly explained a little of the three tenses of the gospel to the young girl, and showed her something of the riches of her past salvation, her ongoing salvation, and her future salvation, from spirit to soul to body; and before they separated that earnest young girl knew more about the gospel and her Saviour than she had ever known before, and went away rejoicing that she had asked this tall stranger whether he was saved."

The story had a different ending as I heard it.

As I heard it, when the bishop asked, "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?" the young woman responded:

"All I know, sir, is that I'm saved, but if you're not sure about yourself, I will pray for you."

The point being that all the theology did not improve on her salvation.

 

[Hillsage]

The story had a different ending as I heard it.

As I heard it, when the bishop asked, "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?" the young woman responded:

"All I know, sir, is that I'm saved, but if you're not sure about yourself, I will pray for you."

The point being that all the theology did not improve on her salvation.

The whole point of the theology in my story was not to "improve ON her salvation". It is to 'improve your understanding OF your salvation" as to why the nominal church of today fights endlessly over the half truth of two groups. Neither of which understands that salvation of a triune being takes place in three different steps.

 

[eleos1954]

I understand what you are saying we do have a choice, but I do not believe that because you are saved you will never sin again, sin is sin you can sin in your heart with out any actions I do not believe anyone can be perfect without sin even if saved. So if what you are saying is true than what measure of sin after salvation could cause a person to lose his salvation. I believe that many profess to be saved because they said some prayer, but God judges our heart and knows if we are sincerely when we accept Christ as our Savior, repentance also comes with that you have to repent. I think Jesus knew they were not sincerely that they were just words that the person was never saved to begin with.

"but I do not believe that because you are saved you will never sin again" - of course we will sin again ... and yes we will be in a sinful state until we go to be with the Lord, we will be changed then ... without sin for eternity.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Yes, there are those who are not sincere.

Matthew 7

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Yes, only God knows the heart and

1 Kings 8:39

then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind)

It is not up to us to judge who is being honest and who is not. It is between the Lord and the individual ... only He knows the heart.

Romans 14:12

So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

God Bless.

 

[RDKirk]

The whole point of the theology in my story was not to "improve ON her salvation". It is to 'improve your understanding OF your salvation" as to why the nominal church of today fights endlessly over the half truth of two groups. Neither of which understands that salvation of a triune being takes place in three different steps.

The point is: It made no difference. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Or it could have made a negative difference: It could have confused and damaged the faith of a new believer.

But it certainly changes nothing about her standing with God, nor does it even point her to a better understanding of how to live her new life in Christ.

It does nothing but prop up the egos of scholars and confuse the rest.

 

[Hillsage]

The point is: It made no difference. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

My experience was different, my testimony is different, my teaching is different.

Or it could have made a negative difference: It could have confused and damaged the faith of a new believer.

The stinking thinking of nominal disagreeing Christianity is what confused the faith of this 'new believer' decades ago.

But it certainly changes nothing about her standing with God, nor does it even point her to a better understanding of how to live her new life in Christ.

Now you're just being redundant, I already explained 'her standing with God' wasn't the issue in the last post. But my understanding helped my 'life in Christ' and it has helped the lives of many, in my life of disciplining others as to the truth as I teach it also.

It does nothing but prop up the egos of scholars and confuse the rest.

Your diagnosis of 'confusion' is your problem not mine. Enjoy your 'opinion' and I will enjoy and teach mine....to those who are confused an want and answer yours doesn't satisfy. I'm done here RD. This is a waste of 'our' time, even if I'm the only one who realizes 'that point' too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do you explain:

"{For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." --Philippians 1:6

For His part, he is faithful. But we can walk away and be lost and it happens for the reasons Jesus said. He will do everything apart from giving us a lobotomy so we have no will anymore. That’s why Jesus told US to take care. He wasn’t talking to himself.

 

[Oldmantook]

How do you explain:

"{For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." --Philippians 1:6

This statement indicates a process initiated and completed by God. Lest you think it is unconditional without any participation or cooperation on our part, pay attention to its following verses:
"9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."
Being "sincere and blameless" until the day of Christ requires us to be more loving, and abounding more in knowledge/discernment. God never fails to do his part. We must also do ours. A covenant relationship entails obligations by both parties to the covenant.

 

[ClementofA]

If you "let" God save you, you are ultimately the savior based on your self-righteousness.

If there's no letting or libertarian free will (LFW), then you have:

1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

Of course endless hell is unscriptural:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[Dave L]

If there's no letting or LFW, then you have:

1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

Of course endless hell is unscriptural:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

God is the only creator mentioned in scripture. In him all things exist, good, bad, or otherwise.

 

[ClementofA]

God is the only creator mentioned in scripture. In him all things exist, good, bad, or otherwise.

I wonder if you're one of the lucky lotto winner puppets your "God" fated to heaven.

While most of the billions of human puppets he fated to suffer endless torments.

Good luck, since in your theology it's all about luck & your "God's" arbitrary choices.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Dave L]

I wonder if you're one of the lucky lotto winner puppets your "God" fated to heaven.

While most of the billions of human puppets he fated to suffer endless torments.

Good luck, since in your theology it's all about luck & your "God's" arbitrary choices.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

You are beginning to get the picture from an unbeliever's standpoint. I see God's glory in all of his creation and adore him because of it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Nothing bad exists in the One True God. Hinduism teaches bad is in the gods too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I understand what you are saying we do have a choice, but I do not believe that because you are saved you will never sin again, sin is sin you can sin in your heart with out any actions I do not believe anyone can be perfect without sin even if saved. So if what you are saying is true than what measure of sin after salvation could cause a person to lose his salvation. I believe that many profess to be saved because they said some prayer, but God judges our heart and knows if we are sincerely when we accept Christ as our Savior, repentance also comes with that you have to repent. I think Jesus knew they were not sincerely that they were just words that the person was never saved to begin with.

There are some, if not all, who need to make right the wrong they did, not merely think they are at the moment sincere in their hearts. There was a man who said to Jesus that he will give back all that he wrongly took from others and AFTER he said he would do this, then Jesus said that salvation had come to him. THinking he was sincere in his heart was only accepted by God when he not only repented of wrong, but made the wrongs done to others right, cost him what it may.

One needs to read what Jesus said that causes one to lose their faith and thereby lose eternity with God. He said the Word of God does not bring fruit (relationship with HIm that saves) because of the pleasures of this life or the troubles of his life or persecution. Those are the reasons people let their "sincere" love grow cold and they fall away from the faith and lose their promised eternal life. No one in the Bible says "if you sin you are no longer saved."

 

[Janice Orbi]

There are some, if not all, who need to make right the wrong they did, not merely think they are at the moment sincere in their hearts. There was a man who said to Jesus that he will give back all that he wrongly took from others and AFTER he said he would do this, then Jesus said that salvation had come to him. THinking he was sincere in his heart was only accepted by God when he not only repented of wrong, but made the wrongs done to others right, cost him what it may.

One needs to read what Jesus said that causes one to lose their faith and thereby lose eternity with God. He said the Word of God does not bring fruit (relationship with HIm that saves) because of the pleasures of this life or the troubles of his life or persecution. Those are the reasons people let their "sincere" love grow cold and they fall away from the faith and lose their promised eternal life. No one in the Bible says "if you sin you are no longer saved."

That is only one example but there are many that were saved that did not go make their wrongs right. If one loses their faith perhaps they never really had it to begin with, if you can lose your salvation why do you not see any one getting saved again, confessing Christ again.