Eternal Security VS Conditional Security

[Neostarwcc]

Which do you think is true? I believe in Eternal Security. I believe that Eternal Security was both taught by the disciples and by Jesus himself. For example some verses that teach Eternal Security are:

John 6:37-40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


John 5:24

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

John 10:27-29

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Hebrews 10:10

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 5:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are just a few of the verses that say that once a person is saved nothing can take that salvation away because nothing can take the new birth away. Those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22)

There are verses however that seem to teach conditional security like John 15:4-7, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 6:4-6, and Matthew 25:31-46 to name a few. But when examining the context we find that the Will of the Father is explained in John 6:37-40 and that is that no believer will be lost. So to be saved you have to believe in Jesus and that's what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7:21-23. The unsaved people in those verses are people who have never come to Jesus for salvation and instead trusted in their own works to save them. They never were born again.

And we find that nobody who has truly been born again would ever leave the faith because the Holy Spirit keeps them in the faith (1 John 2:19). Why there are warnings in the Bible about leaving the faith I don't know but if it were possible for a born again Christian to leave the faith and lose their salvation than Jesus lied in John 6:37-40 because he says in those verses that NO born again believer will EVER be lost. As we all know God cannot and will not lie so there's only one logical conclusion to draw here and that is that you can't lose your salvation. Once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved. You don't get saved and then lose your salvation because you commit one particular sin and then get resaved another day. Salvation is a once for all time process like it says in Hebrews 10:10.

We also learn from Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:26 that a believer has to do works in order to be saved. But, here's the thing. All born again believers will do works as the Holy Spirit continues to guide their everyday lives. I do works and you do works. Again, the Unsaved people in Matthew 25 are people who were never born again. Once you are born again you are sealed. End of story. When Jesus promised eternal life for those who believe in him, he meant it. To say that one can lose their salvation is not only calling God a liar but it's also like saying that we have the ability to sin once we receive our new bodies. Again, when God promised eternal life he meant it and it will be made impossible for mankind to EVER sin again.


So what do you think is true? Conditional security or Eternal Security? Please keep the debate civil.

 

[Dave L]

If salvation is conditioned on obedience, then it is only for the self-righteous. But the true believer will always prevail in holiness because it is the nature of the new birth to do so.

 

[Neostarwcc]

If salvation is conditioned on obedience, then it is only for the self-righteous. But the true believer will always prevail in holiness because it is the nature of the new birth to do so.

Right. Plus if salvation were conditional based on obedience than not a single person could be saved because nobody can keep the law perfectly no matter how hard we try. God requires perfection and to slip up once is the same as being guilty for all. Perfection is impossible with our current sinful nature. But when we are given our new bodies perfection will be easy.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Which do you think is true? I believe in Eternal Security. I believe that Eternal Security was both taught by the disciples and by Jesus himself. For example some verses that teach Eternal Security are:

John 6:37-40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


John 5:24

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

John 10:27-29

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Hebrews 10:10

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 5:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are just a few of the verses that say that once a person is saved nothing can take that salvation away because nothing can take the new birth away. Those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22)

There are verses however that seem to teach conditional security like John 15:4-7, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 6:4-6, and Matthew 25:31-46 to name a few. But when examining the context we find that the Will of the Father is explained in John 6:37-40 and that is that no believer will be lost. So to be saved you have to believe in Jesus and that's what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7:21-23. The unsaved people in those verses are people who have never come to Jesus for salvation and instead trusted in their own works to save them. They never were born again.

And we find that nobody who has truly been born again would ever leave the faith because the Holy Spirit keeps them in the faith (1 John 2:19). Why there are warnings in the Bible about leaving the faith I don't know but if it were possible for a born again Christian to leave the faith and lose their salvation than Jesus lied in John 6:37-40 because he says in those verses that NO born again believer will EVER be lost. As we all know God cannot and will not lie so there's only one logical conclusion to draw here and that is that you can't lose your salvation. Once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved. You don't get saved and then lose your salvation because you commit one particular sin and then get resaved another day. Salvation is a once for all time process like it says in Hebrews 10:10.

We also learn from Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:26 that a believer has to do works in order to be saved. But, here's the thing. All born again believers will do works as the Holy Spirit continues to guide their everyday lives. I do works and you do works. Again, the Unsaved people in Matthew 25 are people who were never born again. Once you are born again you are sealed. End of story. When Jesus promised eternal life for those who believe in him, he meant it. To say that one can lose their salvation is not only calling God a liar but it's also like saying that we have the ability to sin once we receive our new bodies. Again, when God promised eternal life he meant it and it will be made impossible for mankind to EVER sin again.


So what do you think is true? Conditional security or Eternal Security? Please keep the debate civil.

The bible states that the Holy Spirit Himself has sealed all of us unto the day that we are glorified, and the ending of Jude agrees with that assessment! jesus also is our High priest, and He lives and intercedes for us, to make sure none will be lost again!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't think "conditional" security rests on either keeping the law perfectly (unless you think you can initially purchase salvation by keeping the law - which we can't) ... nor does it hinge on lack of doubt and perfect steadfast mental assent.

I think conditional security requires one to stay in the faith. While I too question how anyone who ever truly believed could depart from the faith, I think it must be possible because the Scriptures do warn of it, and I think apostasy is a real danger.

He who perseveres in the faith will be saved. I don't think God gives free will only to take it away when we enter the faith.

 

[~Zao~]

I don't think "conditional" security rests on either keeping the law perfectly (unless you think you can initially purchase salvation by keeping the law - which we can't) ... nor does it hinge on lack of doubt and perfect steadfast mental assent.

I think conditional security requires one to stay in the faith. While I too question how anyone who ever truly believed could depart from the faith, I think it must be possible because the Scriptures do warn of it, and I think apostasy is a real danger.

He who perseveres in the faith will be saved. I don't think God gives free will only to take it away when we enter the faith.

That's really controversial to those who think that there is a coming Kingdon before eternity. If one dosn't participate in that Kingdom where we see Jesus at the reigns of gvmnt that is human/divine then that doesn't preclude they will be exempt from eternity when all is handed over to divinity.

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

I agree with Eternal Security for all the reasons the OP and Dave mentioned. Perfection and stopping sinning completely in this life is impossible.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That's really controversial to those who think that there is a coming Kingdon before eternity. If one dosn't participate in that Kingdom where we see Jesus at the reigns of gvmnt that is human/divine then that doesn't preclude they will be exempt from eternity when all is handed over to divinity.

I don't understand the controversy? Unless we have vastly different definitions of Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God is within us. There has been opportunity to participate in that Kingdom since the time of the Apostles.

Is that what you mean?

 

[bcbsr]

Which do you think is true? I believe in Eternal Security. I believe that Eternal Security was both taught by the disciples and by Jesus himself. For example some verses that teach Eternal Security are:

John 6:37-40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


John 5:24

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

John 10:27-29

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Hebrews 10:10

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 5:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are just a few of the verses that say that once a person is saved nothing can take that salvation away because nothing can take the new birth away. Those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22)

There are verses however that seem to teach conditional security like John 15:4-7, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 6:4-6, and Matthew 25:31-46 to name a few. But when examining the context we find that the Will of the Father is explained in John 6:37-40 and that is that no believer will be lost. So to be saved you have to believe in Jesus and that's what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7:21-23. The unsaved people in those verses are people who have never come to Jesus for salvation and instead trusted in their own works to save them. They never were born again.

And we find that nobody who has truly been born again would ever leave the faith because the Holy Spirit keeps them in the faith (1 John 2:19). Why there are warnings in the Bible about leaving the faith I don't know but if it were possible for a born again Christian to leave the faith and lose their salvation than Jesus lied in John 6:37-40 because he says in those verses that NO born again believer will EVER be lost. As we all know God cannot and will not lie so there's only one logical conclusion to draw here and that is that you can't lose your salvation. Once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved. You don't get saved and then lose your salvation because you commit one particular sin and then get resaved another day. Salvation is a once for all time process like it says in Hebrews 10:10.

We also learn from Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:26 that a believer has to do works in order to be saved. But, here's the thing. All born again believers will do works as the Holy Spirit continues to guide their everyday lives. I do works and you do works. Again, the Unsaved people in Matthew 25 are people who were never born again. Once you are born again you are sealed. End of story. When Jesus promised eternal life for those who believe in him, he meant it. To say that one can lose their salvation is not only calling God a liar but it's also like saying that we have the ability to sin once we receive our new bodies. Again, when God promised eternal life he meant it and it will be made impossible for mankind to EVER sin again.


So what do you think is true? Conditional security or Eternal Security? Please keep the debate civil.

Yes, you're right. In fact what I find is that if a person doesn't believe Eternal Security they believe in salvation by works. Typically they bring up the "continuing to live in sin" strawman argument. But that is covered in the nature of regeneration. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And the verses they typically read "salvation by works" into are typically diagnostic and not speaking of the cause of one's salvation but rather its effect. The "falling away" strawman is covered in 1John 2:19

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't believe in salvation by works - but I also don't believe we should presume we will be "saved" even if we abandon the faith.

 

[~Zao~]

I don't understand the controversy? Unless we have vastly different definitions of Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God is within us. There has been opportunity to participate in that Kingdom since the time of the Apostles.

Is that what you mean?

The prophets of old couldn't see the proverbial forest for the trees either so your in good company imho. What they viewed was all eternity and couldn't see the mystery of the church wrapped within. The same goes for those who don't see the difference between Christ's kingdom and the Father eternity. Instead they see man's kingdom and God's eternity. There's a valley that is missing in that analogy.

 

[eleos1954]

Which do you think is true? I believe in Eternal Security. I believe that Eternal Security was both taught by the disciples and by Jesus himself. For example some verses that teach Eternal Security are:

John 6:37-40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


John 5:24

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

John 10:27-29

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Hebrews 10:10

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 5:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are just a few of the verses that say that once a person is saved nothing can take that salvation away because nothing can take the new birth away. Those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22)

There are verses however that seem to teach conditional security like John 15:4-7, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 6:4-6, and Matthew 25:31-46 to name a few. But when examining the context we find that the Will of the Father is explained in John 6:37-40 and that is that no believer will be lost. So to be saved you have to believe in Jesus and that's what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7:21-23. The unsaved people in those verses are people who have never come to Jesus for salvation and instead trusted in their own works to save them. They never were born again.

And we find that nobody who has truly been born again would ever leave the faith because the Holy Spirit keeps them in the faith (1 John 2:19). Why there are warnings in the Bible about leaving the faith I don't know but if it were possible for a born again Christian to leave the faith and lose their salvation than Jesus lied in John 6:37-40 because he says in those verses that NO born again believer will EVER be lost. As we all know God cannot and will not lie so there's only one logical conclusion to draw here and that is that you can't lose your salvation. Once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved. You don't get saved and then lose your salvation because you commit one particular sin and then get resaved another day. Salvation is a once for all time process like it says in Hebrews 10:10.

We also learn from Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:26 that a believer has to do works in order to be saved. But, here's the thing. All born again believers will do works as the Holy Spirit continues to guide their everyday lives. I do works and you do works. Again, the Unsaved people in Matthew 25 are people who were never born again. Once you are born again you are sealed. End of story. When Jesus promised eternal life for those who believe in him, he meant it. To say that one can lose their salvation is not only calling God a liar but it's also like saying that we have the ability to sin once we receive our new bodies. Again, when God promised eternal life he meant it and it will be made impossible for mankind to EVER sin again.


So what do you think is true? Conditional security or Eternal Security? Please keep the debate civil.

Romans 8:14

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

If we are following Him.

We always have choice and we can decide to change that choice. To believe once saved always saved .... if a person was baptized and "saved" ... then later becomes a complete atheist are they still saved? Such as the case with Darwin, who was inspired to become a preacher, until his young daughter died. He prayed to God to not let his daughter die, and since his daughter died anyway ... then he became totally atheist. What about Lucifer/Satan and the 1/3 of the angels? They were in heaven, chose to rebel and were cast out of heaven. Did they lose their salvation? ummmm yes.

That being the case, then why would it be any different for human beings?

The trend of our life needs to be accepting Jesus as Savior and continuing to follow Him.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

God Bless.

 

[~Zao~]

Romans 8:14

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

If we are following Him.

We always have choice and we can decide to change that choice. To believe once saved always saved .... if a person was baptized and "saved" ... then later becomes a complete atheist are they still saved? Such as the case with Darwin, who was inspired to become a preacher, until his young daughter died. He prayed to God to not let his daughter die, and since his daughter died anyway ... then he became totally atheist. What about Lucifer/Satan and the 1/3 of the angels? They were in heaven, chose to rebel and were cast out of heaven. Did they lose their salvation? ummmm yes.

That being the case, then why would it be any different for human beings?

The trend of our life needs to be accepting Jesus as Savior and continuing to follow Him.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

God Bless.

Salvation for angels has no part in the contractual agreement between heaven and earth.

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

Yes, you're right. In fact what I find is that if a person doesn't believe Eternal Security they believe in salvation by works. Typically they bring up the "continuing to live in sin" strawman argument. But that is covered in the nature of regeneration. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And the verses they typically read "salvation by works" into are typically diagnostic and not speaking of the cause of one's salvation but rather its effect. The "falling away" strawman is covered in 1John 2:19

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

“Continuing to live in sin.”

We will all sin even after being saved, so I don’t see how the above is a convincing argument.

 

[Basil the Great]

When the Bible says that "He who endures to the end shall be saved", then what happens to those who do not endure to the end.........., but rather forsake their faith, for whatever reason: losing a loved one, ill health, financial hardship, etc.?

 

[Roseonathorn]

You really think God planned it so some people would not look fantastic in their heavenly robes if they ever got there? I think He want everyone there but it is not everyone that want to get to know Him.

 

[eleos1954]

Salvation for angels has no part in the contractual agreement between heaven and earth.

contractual agreement between heaven and earth? What contract?

 

[~Anastasia~]

The prophets of old couldn't see the proverbial forest for the trees either so your in good company imho. What they viewed was all eternity and couldn't see the mystery of the church wrapped within. The same goes for those who don't see the difference between Christ's kingdom and the Father eternity. Instead they see man's kingdom and God's eternity. There's a valley that is missing in that analogy.

Well ...

I was trying to have a discussion here lol. Yes, there is a difference between Christ within us and eternity, though there is a connection as well.

But if you wish to look at it that I simply can't understand you, that's ok too.

Peace to you.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't think "conditional" security rests on either keeping the law perfectly (unless you think you can initially purchase salvation by keeping the law - which we can't) ... nor does it hinge on lack of doubt and perfect steadfast mental assent.

I think conditional security requires one to stay in the faith. While I too question how anyone who ever truly believed could depart from the faith, I think it must be possible because the Scriptures do warn of it, and I think apostasy is a real danger.

He who perseveres in the faith will be saved. I don't think God gives free will only to take it away when we enter the faith.

I appreciate the balance there, if we are saved by faith you must continue in it. Hebrews 6:6 is clear if you fall away from the faith It's impossible to be restored to repentance. There is a coming time when men will not endure sound doctrine and heap up false teachers .That is sometimes call the falling away that procedes the tribulation and the rise of the antichrist. I'm as siure of uncounditional grace as any of the five points but if salvation is by grace through faith then perserverance is essential, faith and repentance are not requred for sallvation any more the bearing fruit, they are essential elements of it.

 

[bcbsr]

“Continuing to live in sin.”

We will all sin even after being saved, so I don’t see how the above is a convincing argument.

1John 3:9 is not saying that we don't sin from time to time (Aorist). Rather it uses the Greek Present tense referring to lifestyle. Those born of God don't characteristically sin. In fact it's so characteristic that you can distinguish between children of God and children of the devil based upon observing their lifestyle (1John 3:10)