Eternal Security VS Conditional Security

[YeshuaFan]

I don't think "conditional" security rests on either keeping the law perfectly (unless you think you can initially purchase salvation by keeping the law - which we can't) ... nor does it hinge on lack of doubt and perfect steadfast mental assent.

I think conditional security requires one to stay in the faith. While I too question how anyone who ever truly believed could depart from the faith, I think it must be possible because the Scriptures do warn of it, and I think apostasy is a real danger.

He who perseveres in the faith will be saved. I don't think God gives free will only to take it away when we enter the faith.

We are born again by Imperishable seed, so we can not in the end deny the Faith. Jesus Himself!

 

[~Zao~]

contractual agreement between heaven and earth? What contract?

Psalms and Hebrews both make mention of creations handiwork but at the present time and until the angel's crowns are given over then there is no reference to universal rule of mankind. Did you understand that?

 

[~Anastasia~]

We are born again by Imperishable seed, so we can not in the end deny the Faith. Jesus Himself!

Well you'll have to take that up with Jesus. He warned about falling away, the Apostles through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit warn us as well.

 

[dqhall]

Which do you think is true? I believe in Eternal Security. I believe that Eternal Security was both taught by the disciples and by Jesus himself. For example some verses that teach Eternal Security are:

John 6:37-40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


John 5:24

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

John 10:27-29

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Hebrews 10:10

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 5:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are just a few of the verses that say that once a person is saved nothing can take that salvation away because nothing can take the new birth away. Those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22)

There are verses however that seem to teach conditional security like John 15:4-7, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 6:4-6, and Matthew 25:31-46 to name a few. But when examining the context we find that the Will of the Father is explained in John 6:37-40 and that is that no believer will be lost. So to be saved you have to believe in Jesus and that's what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7:21-23. The unsaved people in those verses are people who have never come to Jesus for salvation and instead trusted in their own works to save them. They never were born again.

And we find that nobody who has truly been born again would ever leave the faith because the Holy Spirit keeps them in the faith (1 John 2:19). Why there are warnings in the Bible about leaving the faith I don't know but if it were possible for a born again Christian to leave the faith and lose their salvation than Jesus lied in John 6:37-40 because he says in those verses that NO born again believer will EVER be lost. As we all know God cannot and will not lie so there's only one logical conclusion to draw here and that is that you can't lose your salvation. Once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved. You don't get saved and then lose your salvation because you commit one particular sin and then get resaved another day. Salvation is a once for all time process like it says in Hebrews 10:10.

We also learn from Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:26 that a believer has to do works in order to be saved. But, here's the thing. All born again believers will do works as the Holy Spirit continues to guide their everyday lives. I do works and you do works. Again, the Unsaved people in Matthew 25 are people who were never born again. Once you are born again you are sealed. End of story. When Jesus promised eternal life for those who believe in him, he meant it. To say that one can lose their salvation is not only calling God a liar but it's also like saying that we have the ability to sin once we receive our new bodies. Again, when God promised eternal life he meant it and it will be made impossible for mankind to EVER sin again.


So what do you think is true? Conditional security or Eternal Security? Please keep the debate civil.

If you do a good thing for Jesus you will not lose your reward. If God asks you to lay hands on someone and that person is miraculously healed, I suppose you would continue to seek God to make your election sure.

 

[Blade]

I am 57 and this is still a great question. When He found me.. duh back then 3 channels+ PBS. And yet from somewhere I got those thoughts when I sinned.. YOUR LOST.. He does not want you.. or read ..if I sin there is no longer any sacrifice for that sin. Things like that. I would think how AWESOME it would have been to NOT have the NT. Well back them it was just someone telling you what they heard or someone told them JESUS said.. believe in Him and live forever. Nothing else. And who had back then the Torah? Only a few could have it.

Yet He is REAL...so something in you changes.. at some point what you loved in this world is gone. I then find out this "no more sacrifice" was Paul talking to Jewish people that got saved and then would try to go back and offer up a sacrifice for that sin. When you sin.. there is no more sacrifice for that sin.. He cant die again. I don't see once saved always nor do I see sin I can lose it. I am in the same boat as my brother Peter.. No.. I thought the same thing.. who else has words of ever lasting life? And my Father made a NEW spirit in me. That is what can never sin..so when I read .. that which is born of God never sins.. its not this flesh He was talking about.. I could be wrong..

And its not my gift to give up giver away. A GOD made something NEW in me. Can some sin again kill it? No.. Christ died already. So it cant be undone. I don't really know if once done can be undone. Well WHO fully understands this since we only see in the flesh? Unless one walked saw felt experienced the supernatural.. seen heavenly things.. angels what not.. so much.. to then walk way.. then yes one can as I understand leave. They would KNOW both sides sin/life but 99% of us do not.

This is why Satan and all those that made the choice to leave can not repent. They KNOW what they gave up. We 1st lived in sin.. we never saw our Father in ALL HIS GLORY AND POWER AMEN! WOW.. LOVE THIS. To TRY to think about a GOD..thats our Father..that is not like man. That WANTS to CANT WAIT to grab us hold us SO CLOSE and NEVER let go.. He wants long to see us yet KNOWS us..but want to see hold talk to chat with FOREVER ...us.. pffft.. now I want to go home

 

[redleghunter]

When the Bible says that "He who endures to the end shall be saved", then what happens to those who do not endure to the end.........., but rather forsake their faith, for whatever reason: losing a loved one, ill health, financial hardship, etc.?

Good question. Parable of the soils comes to mind and the wheat and tares (Matthew 13)

 

[redleghunter]

You really think God planned it so some people would not look fantastic in their heavenly robes if they ever got there? I think He want everyone there but it is not everyone that want to get to know Him.

Many are called but few are chosen (Matthew 22)

 

[redleghunter]

He who perseveres in the faith will be saved.

That much is very clear.

I don't think God gives free will only to take it away when we enter the faith.

No, but Paul does opine on our will either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to Christ or righteousness. Something happens to make that change of the will. (Romans 6)

 

[truefiction1]

If salvation is conditioned on obedience, then it is only for the self-righteous. But the true believer will always prevail in holiness because it is the nature of the new birth to do so.

Is there really belief in the absence of obedience? Does one who "believes God" ever act according to his own imperfect or sinful will rather than the perfect and Holy will of our Father? Is belief ever really greater than the actual manifestations of it in, and through, the so-called believer?

Salvation is for those "made to become righteous" by the Holy Spirit (His grace), through faith. There is no such thing as "self-righteousness", it is just another term for the evil passion of pride.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That much is very clear.

No, but Paul does opine on our will either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to Christ or righteousness. Something happens to make that change of the will. (Romans 6)

I agree. But (apart from the honeymoon phase of many new believers) it is often not like a switch that is either fully off or fully on. If it were, no Christian would ever struggle against temptation, nor would ever sin.

In truth, we can be slave as much as we allow ourselves to be drawn after whatever passion draws us. Ideally of course that would not happen, but the truth is (if people fully consider the range of sin, including lack of perfect humility = some degree of pride, any tendency to desire what we do not have, or weakness to at least be tempted to lust, etc.) - the truth is that on some level people continue to battle against passions inspired by the flesh, if we consider that sin is not merely breaking some grace moral law, but only missing the mark - which is Christ. And we all miss that mark. God willing we get closer and closer though.

 

[Basil the Great]

There seems to be little or no evidence that the Early Church Fathers believed in "once saved, always saved". To the contrary, if penance for killing someone accidentally in a fight was prostrating yourself in church for like ten years, then it seems to me that they viewed certain sins so serious as to be capable of putting one's salvation in peril.

 

[lsume]

Which do you think is true? I believe in Eternal Security. I believe that Eternal Security was both taught by the disciples and by Jesus himself. For example some verses that teach Eternal Security are:

John 6:37-40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


John 5:24

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

John 10:27-29

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Hebrews 10:10

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 John 5:13

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are just a few of the verses that say that once a person is saved nothing can take that salvation away because nothing can take the new birth away. Those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22)

There are verses however that seem to teach conditional security like John 15:4-7, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 6:4-6, and Matthew 25:31-46 to name a few. But when examining the context we find that the Will of the Father is explained in John 6:37-40 and that is that no believer will be lost. So to be saved you have to believe in Jesus and that's what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7:21-23. The unsaved people in those verses are people who have never come to Jesus for salvation and instead trusted in their own works to save them. They never were born again.

And we find that nobody who has truly been born again would ever leave the faith because the Holy Spirit keeps them in the faith (1 John 2:19). Why there are warnings in the Bible about leaving the faith I don't know but if it were possible for a born again Christian to leave the faith and lose their salvation than Jesus lied in John 6:37-40 because he says in those verses that NO born again believer will EVER be lost. As we all know God cannot and will not lie so there's only one logical conclusion to draw here and that is that you can't lose your salvation. Once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved. You don't get saved and then lose your salvation because you commit one particular sin and then get resaved another day. Salvation is a once for all time process like it says in Hebrews 10:10.

We also learn from Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:26 that a believer has to do works in order to be saved. But, here's the thing. All born again believers will do works as the Holy Spirit continues to guide their everyday lives. I do works and you do works. Again, the Unsaved people in Matthew 25 are people who were never born again. Once you are born again you are sealed. End of story. When Jesus promised eternal life for those who believe in him, he meant it. To say that one can lose their salvation is not only calling God a liar but it's also like saying that we have the ability to sin once we receive our new bodies. Again, when God promised eternal life he meant it and it will be made impossible for mankind to EVER sin again.


So what do you think is true? Conditional security or Eternal Security? Please keep the debate civil.

I believe that once you are sealed in The Holy Spirit, you will stay sealed until the day of redemption. However, there are many who believe they are sealed who are not. Also, those that are and willfully sin have a very rude awakening coming. Chastisement and scourging are very unpleasant. They will act to plum you up so that you will never want to willfully sin again. Many leave this out of their beliefs.

 

[truefiction1]

Right. Plus if salvation were conditional based on obedience than not a single person could be saved because nobody can keep the law perfectly no matter how hard we try. God requires perfection and to slip up once is the same as being guilty for all. Perfection is impossible with our current sinful nature. But when we are given our new bodies perfection will be easy.

Perfection is not impossible, even given our sinful nature. It's just very hard to achieve. We are commanded, however, to strive toward it (Matthew 5:48). This perfection is not perfection in Mosaic Law, but a different kind of perfection altogether, more akin to perfection in the "heart of the Law". But Salvation does not depend upon reaching God's perfection in this life. Salvation has more to do with our becoming dead to sin and Alive to God, by the grace (power) of the Holy Spirit Who has been, will be, and is being given to us. Salvation is a continuous way of Life that depends upon the grace of God, which we receive from the Holy Spirit, and our own freewill (which is now restored by the power of that same Holy Spirit) responding to the grace (powerful help) we are receiving. Freewill remains intact, as an active and operational agent in this ongoing and continuous relationship, and so it remains possible at all times for a believer to turn back to sin, abandoning grace and God Who gives it. Some do, and some don't, and so continue on the path (narrow way) to perfection. The path itself is salvation -- the narrow path. Few find it. Few stay on it even if they may have entered upon it, because it is very narrow and hard not to stray from. Salvation depends wholly on the mercy of God, and our freely desiring it for ourselves and others.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Many will and have fallen away from the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. They broke the one condition for salvation. So without this , how do they remain in the Body of Christ? Salvation stems on the condition you remain in Him. If you reject Him and do not stay the course your name will be blotted from the book of life.

 

[Hillsage]

"The story has been told of a beautiful incident that occurred many years ago in the North of England. A young Salvation Army girl, only recently saved, was overflowing with the joy of the Lord and was eager to share her salvation with all others. Walking along the street of a little Durham city, she saw a tall, gray-haired man coming toward her and, stranger though he was, she stopped him and said, "Pardon me, sir, but are you saved?" The tall stranger leaned over toward her and answered, with a quizzical smile playing on his kindly face: "My dear, do you mean ESOTHEN, or SOZOMENOS, or SOTHESOMAI?" The Salvation Army girl was bewildered - it was "all Greek" to her! She did not know that she had stopped bishop Westcott, one of the greatest of Greek scholars and an editor of the famous Westcott and Hort edition of the Greek New Testament. He had asked her, using three different tenses of the Greek verb: "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?" And then bishop Westcott, who was indeed saved and knew that he was saved, lovingly explained a little of the three tenses of the gospel to the young girl, and showed her something of the riches of her past salvation, her ongoing salvation, and her future salvation, from spirit to soul to body; and before they separated that earnest young girl knew more about the gospel and her Saviour than she had ever known before, and went away rejoicing that she had asked this tall stranger whether he was saved."

Bishop Wescott died a 115 years ago, along with his insight which the nominal church thinking of today has not apprehended....let alone comprehended. Instead we have the half truth understanding of the Calvinists and the half truth understanding of the Armenians, both continuing to declare their half is the whole truth. It is truly sad. They know not the difference between "you in Christ" and "Christ in you". Nor does their theology due justice to being "IN the faith" versus being "OF the faith". Nor do they begin to apprehend the scriptures which have been buried with the false pen of the modern scribes when the KJV talks of the salvation that comes from "the faith OF Jesus" versus the translations which have buried that truth making all say there's only "faith IN Jesus". And though these unsung verses paint so much clearer picture, of this never ending doctrinal fight here concerning 'salvation', they can only be read and agreed upon by those who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

 

[twin.spin]

Which do you think is true? I believe in Eternal Security. I believe that Eternal Security was both taught by the disciples and by Jesus himself. For example some verses that teach Eternal Security are:

John 6:37-40
John 5:24
John 10:27-29
John 3:16
Hebrews 10:10
Ephesians 2:8-9
1 John 5:13

These are just a few of the verses that say that once a person is saved nothing can take that salvation away because nothing can take the new birth away. Those who have been born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22)

There are verses however that seem to teach conditional security like John 15:4-7, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 6:4-6, and Matthew 25:31-46 to name a few.

. Why there are warnings in the Bible about leaving the faith I don't know but if it were possible for a born again Christian to leave the faith and lose their salvation than Jesus lied in John 6:37-40

So what do you think is true? Conditional security or Eternal Security? Please keep the debate civil.

Since all Scripture is the truth and every word Jesus spoke is from the Father … then guess who will be held accountable for calling God a liar.

The reason God warns about a person forfeiting\losing their faith is because it's the truth. There are two attacks upon the Christian that can eventually cause the person to lose\renounce their faith:

1. Self-righteous \ works
2. Licentiousness

​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If salvation is conditioned on obedience, then it is only for the self-righteous. But the true believer will always prevail in holiness because it is the nature of the new birth to do so.

So is the church you attend and the Christians you know prevailing in holiness all the time? No sin in your church at all? I mean if they got a new birth and are always prevailing in holiness then there is no sin there.

You won't like it but Jesus said if we love him we will keep his teaching and the father will love those who do and come and make his home in them. Pretty different than the theology that promises heaven no matter if you love God or man or anyone but yourself. I can bet that this second group is more likely to be prevailing in holiness. God is making his home in them as opposed to the group who insists they are going to Heaven whether they obey the teachings of JEsus or not.

 

[redleghunter]

Pretty different than the theology that promises heaven no matter if you love God or man or anyone but yourself.

Who advocated such? Or was this hyperbole?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who advocated such? Or was this hyperbole?

Ok I ask you point blank. Does the Once Saved Always Saved believer have to love God to go to Heaven?

 

[redleghunter]

Ok I ask you point blank. Does the Once Saved Always Saved believer have to love God to go to Heaven?

The response question is why wouldn’t they love the one Who Redeemed them raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus?

Someone who hates Christ is not one of His sheep.