'fraid not. That's your misinterpretation.Wow! Talk about cherry-picking passages. So, in other words, one can arrive at the OSAS position only by discounting or redirecting lots of passages.
Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.
I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.
While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19
1) The promise of salvation is conditional (2 Peter 1:10) and not unconditional as OSAS claims
2) 1 John 2:19 does not teach the "never really saved to begin with" excuse. It is just an excuse in an attempt to get around the biblical examples of those who did possess the promise of salvation but lost it.
Logically, a person cannot lose what they never really had, a person cannot fall who was always fallen.
3) as per Moses and the Israelites. In Hebrews 3:16-19 some of the Israelites went into unbelief while in the wilderness. Does their going into unbelief "prove" they "never were really saved" from Egyptian bondage? No.
Good points you make here. What about the verse where Jesus says "All those the Father gives to me I shall never lose?" I'm paraphrasing, of course, but only because I don't remember where it is found.
The claim of eternal security comes from biblical promises.1) The promise of salvation is conditional (2 Peter 1:10) and not unconditional as OSAS claims
Actually, the opposite is true. The OSNAS group abuses the present tense as if it means "results of an action occur only as long as the action occurs", and ignoring the frequent use of the aorist tense for 'believe', in which duration of action isn't even considered.(Those that follow the OSAS teaching will generally try and dismiss the present tense of verbs, but the present tense is important.)
No verse teaches the promise of salvation is unconditional.The claim of eternal security comes from biblical promises.
For example, Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28. iow, there are no conditions or requirements for never perishing for those who have received eternal life.
Also, Eph 1:13-14 and 4:30 tell us that those "having believed" (aorist tense) ARE sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Add to this is the fact that no where does the Bible address this sealing and give any warnings of how it might be undone. iow, it can't be, since it is a promise of God.
1 Pet 1:23 teaches that we have been born again of imperishable seed. Hm. How is that not teaching eternal security?
Finally, Heb 6:18 says that it is impossible for God to lie. Since there are no verses that promise that one can lose salvation/eternal life, and many verses that promise being sealed for the day of redemption, or never perishing, the view that salvation/eternal life can be lost would mean that God doesn't keep His promises.
iow, God lies. Which is impossible.
Actually, the opposite is true. The OSNAS group abuses the present tense as if it means "results of an action occur only as long as the action occurs", and ignoring the frequent use of the aorist tense for 'believe', in which duration of action isn't even considered.
However, the best example of the proper understanding of both the aorist and present tenses is found in Jesus' parable of the soils.
Luke 8 -
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe (aorist) and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe (present) for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
If the OSNAS group were correct in their view of conditional salvation, Jesus would have reversed these different tenses.
But v.12 shows that believing in a point in time (aorist) results in salvation. And in v.13, Jesus used the present tense but added "for a while", showing that the present tense clearly doesn't mean results of an action occur only as long as the action continues.
Hi brother ..I also used to be southern baptist butfor various reasons I left ( one biggy was the fact that God had mercy on me a wicked sinner and enemy of His so I no longer felt I could go to war and kill those who did not yet know God's mercy or if they did know God's mercy then it meant I was killing my christian brother )Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.
I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.
While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19
Let me introduce you to the promise of Jesus Himself:No verse teaches the promise of salvation is unconditional.
So, your view is that man has a part in saving himself. Not what Jesus taught.2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
The use of the word "if" proves one can fall from his calling and election. The verb "do" shows the Christian has a working role in his own salvation to keep from falling away.
Speaking of 1 Pet 1, let's consider v23 - " For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."1 Peter 1:12 the seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11) and God's word will last forever. Yet God's word lasting forever does not prove that the promise of salvation cannot be lost for God's eternal word does teach that promise can be lost. The word of God being the seed, 1 Pet 1:23 shows how the word of God plays a role in man being born again and man can be assured that word will never change and therefore have trust in it.
Sure did. I just gave 2 verses: John 10:28 and 1 Pet 1:23. And there are many more.God never promised that salvation can never be lost under any circumstance.
Please go back and read my post where I proved that the present tense doesn't mean an action that only has results as long as the action continues, whih is how the OSNAS group abuses it.John 3:16
John 3:35
John 5:24
John 6:35
The above verses, along with others, have the verb "believeth" in the present tense.
In my post that you didn't read, I showed verses that have 'believe' in the aorist tense, which has no sense of duration.The reason those that back OSAS will sometimes attack the present tense is that the present tense make having everlasting life CONDITIONAL upon a present tense belief thereby undermining OSAS claims that salvation is unconditional.
Then the ONLY conclusion is that Jesus lied in 10:28.It is not biblical possible for a person to quit believing yet still not perish per John 3:16
Apparently you're unaware of the fact that thirsting in John 4 in Jesus' discussion with a woman at a well is that Jesus used the aorist tense for "drink", which results in never thirsting.quit believing yet still never thirst per John 3:35; quit believing yet still have everlasting life per John 5:24.
This claim is simply untrue. Jesus said nothing about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. As I already explained. And Jesus used the aorist tense in 8:12 in the phrase "lest they believe and be saved". Which is the opposite of your claimsLuke 8:13 shows that belief must be ongoing, sustained to be saved and not believe for just awhile yet still saved.
Which still says nothing about loss of salvation.One will "fall away" without a present tense belief.
Let me introduce you to the promise of Jesus Himself:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28
Note the promise to those who receive eternal life: they will never perish.
FreeGrace2 said:Therefore, the ONLY condition for never perishing is to receive eternal life. So said Jesus.
FreeGrace2 said:So, your view is that man has a part in saving himself. Not what Jesus taught.
FreeGrace2 said:To "make your call and election sure" means to confirm it
FreeGrace2 said:Speaking of 1 Pet 1, let's consider v23 - " For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
So, please explain how one born of imperishable seed could ever perish.
FreeGrace2 said:Sure did. I just gave 2 verses: John 10:28 and 1 Pet 1:23. And there are many more.
Please go back and read my post where I proved that the present tense doesn't mean an action that only has results as long as the action continues, whih is how the OSNAS group abuses it.
FreeGrace2 said:In my post that you didn't read, I showed verses that have 'believe' in the aorist tense, which has no sense of duration.
FreeGrace2 said:Then the ONLY conclusion is that Jesus lied in 10:28.
FreeGrace2 said:Apparently you're unaware of the fact that thirsting in John 4 in Jesus' discussion with a woman at a well is that Jesus used the aorist tense for "drink", which results in never thirsting.
FreeGrace2 said:This claim is simply untrue. Jesus said nothing about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. As I already explained. And Jesus used the aorist tense in 8:12 in the phrase "lest they believe and be saved". Which is the opposite of your claims
Which still says nothing about loss of salvation.
Which is irrelevant to how to never perish. The key is to receive eternal life.The sheep of John 10:28 are Christ's sheep that have a present tense hearing and following John 10:27.
There is nothing in the Bible that says this. Your opinion is not found in Scripture.Therefore to be of the sheep of verse 28 one must conditionally maintain a present tense hearing and following of Christ.
I fully agree. To be saved, one MUST have heard the gospel, then understood the gospel, and then BELIEVED the gospel in order to be saved.It is impossible to be of the sheep of verse 28 without ever hearing and following Christ.
Only believers receive eternal life. Here's the proof for that:The question is WHO receives eternal life and WHY do they receive it?
So, it seems you think the Bible teaches one to be their own savior, huh.Acts 2:40 Save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
2 Cor 7:1 cleanse ourselves
James 4:8 cleanse your hands, purify your hearts
2 Tim 2:21 man therefore purge himself
1 Pet 1:22 see ye have purified your souls
I've never argued otherwise. But what would make one assume that "falling" means losing salvation?Peter said IF you do these things, ye shall never fall. Peter makes calling/election CONDITIONAL. The language clearly proves a Christian CAN fall.
Are you kidding?? No, the verse is about our NEW NATURE (2 Cor 5:17). The verse says clearly that we "have been BORN AGAIN". By imperishable seed. Therefore, just as our physical seed is corruptible and will perish, our new nature cannot perish.The seed is the word of God that does not perish.
The verse isn't about God's word never perishing, but the FACT that our new natures will never perish.Simply because God's word will never perish does not mean the promise of salvation can never be lost under any circumstance.
Abusing the present tense doesn't help your view. The aorist tense is used frequently as well. If continuous belief was NECESSARY to stay saved, then the Bible would NEVER have used the aorist. But it does.God's word/seed will never perish but the Christian can perish if he does not faithfully maintain a present tense belief John 3:16.
You've shown no such thing. Just your opinion. And Scripture had to be misread in order to come to your conclusion.As I have shown, neither of these verses says the promise of salvation can never be lost under any condition/circumstance.
Notice how you ignored what I proved about the present and aorist tense.
Please go back to John 4 where Jesus used the verb "to drink" the water He gives in the aorist tense. iow, just ONE drink and one will NEVER thirst again.Each of these verses CONDITONALLY requires a present tense believing for one to never thirst, to have everlasting life.
Nonsense. Why do you keep ignoring the aorist tense in these verses?The present tense kills OSAS claims salvation is unconditional.
I'm happy to tell you that those who believe will never perish.So tell me, can one quit believing a yet still maintain everlasting life per John 5:24?
Of course not. Because it refutes your claims about the present tense.I am not dealing with the aorist tense but showing the importance of the present tense.
Then you simply do not even grasp the issue at all.The present tense requires a faithfulness on part of the Christian to faithfully continue to believe in order to maintain the promise of everlasting life. The verses you cite do not undo this nor change this.
Once again, one is saved by a point in time belief in Christ. Very plainly stated.Luke 8 -
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe (aorist) and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe (present) for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
It seems reading comprehension isn't your forte. v.12 does NOT say the first soil "quit believing" as you claim here. They NEVER believed. And the point is that one is saved from aorist tense believing. Period. Not present tense believing.The reason those in verses 12 and 13 were not saved/fell away is they did not conditionally, faithfully maintain a present tense belief for in both cases they quit believing and when one quits believing he is no longer of the sheep of John 10:28, no longer has the promise of everlasting life John 5:24. These verses prove my point, not yours.
Rather, you've already admitted that you're not going to deal with the aorist tense. And it's obvious why. It refutes your false claims about the present tense.The only conclusion that can be reached here is that supporters of OSAS cherry pick out the verses that deal with (#2) God's faithfulness to Christians and falsely claim God's faithfulness is due to OSAS but avoid all the verses that require Christians to be faithful to God and His word.
Where would anyone see any "requirement" to be a sheep in v.27? Jesus is simply noting what His sheep do. But the requirement for being saved is found in 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.You keep bringing up John 10:28 that speaks to God's faithfulness to those that are Christians but do not really want to deal with verse 27 that speaks to requirement that Christians must maintain a faithful present tense hearing and following of Christ to be of those sheep in v28.
Wow. Wrong again. This is what the Bible says about God's faithfulness in 2 Tim 2:The fact Christians have been commanded to be faithful implies that Christians CAN become unfaithful and God has no obligation to remain faithful and save those that become unfaithful to Him.
This demonstrates a complete failure to grasp the aorist tense.John 4:14
The aorist does not change the fact that if one quits drinking of Christ's water he will thirst again.
Wrong. One drink in the past does it. Not continuous drinking as you falsely claim.There is still a condition that must be met (drinking) that is necessary for one to never thirst again.
That is EXACTLY what Jesus told the woman:Hopefully you are not trying to imply that the aorist tense means one can quit drinking yet still never thirst again?
Demonstrating a failure to understand the subjunctive mood. The point is that IF one takes that single aorist tense drink, THEN they will never thirst again.The verb drink in Jn 4:14 is in the subjunctive mood. Strong's describes the subjunctive mood as "The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." This means one may or may not thirst again depending upon the circumstance if one drinks. So if one quits drinking he will thirst again.
Yes it does.So even though the verb tense puts the action upon initial drinking it does not mean one can quit drinking and still never thirst again.
Why did Jesus use the aorist in Luke 8:12?1) The use of the present tense in these 4 verses proves that Jesus is for a fact requiring a continued believing
You've not proved your case.2) you are implying one can quit believing and still be saved which is not biblically possible.
When the Bible speaks of "unbelief" it always means "never believed". When the Bible refers to a believer who falls from the faith, it uses the word "apostate".Unbelief is a "condemned already" state (John 3:18) not a saved state.
The Greek verb for "drinks" is the subjunctive aorist piei. According to Lenski (p. 310), this verb "expresses one act of drinking, which is never repeated." The aorist tense, however, does not demand a single, unrepeated act. As Shank (p. 80) does, we might regard piei here as a constative aorist. Concerning the constative aorist, Wallace (p. 557) writes, "The event might be iterative in nature, or durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. It places the stress on the act of the occurrence, not its nature."
According to the NAU, Jesus said (John 7:37-38), "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" NAU With regard to these verses, Stott (pp. 53-54) writes:
Now the verbs (thirsting, coming, drinking, believing) are all in the present tense. So we are not only to come to Jesus once, in penitence and faith, but also thereafter to keep coming and to keep drinking, because we keep thirsting.
Link: John 4:7-15
You just cut your own throat.
What paragraph? I'm speaking of John 4, where Jesus told the woman to 'drink' in the aorist tense.Read the last paragraph carefully. '...but also thereafter to keep coming and to keep drinking, because we keep thirsting.'
Which is irrelevant to how to never perish. The key is to receive eternal life.
FreeGrace2 said:If one had to present tense hear and follow, then Jesus would have said so IN v.28.
FreeGrace2 said:The "them" in v.28 are His sheep, plain and simple. And we know how one becomes one of His sheep from v.9: entering through Him as the gate. This is a metaphor for believing in Him.
FreeGrace2 said:Further, your obsession with abusing the present tense is refuted in Eph 1:13 where Paul says, "having believed" (aorist tense), the believer IS sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption.
All who have received eternal life will never perish. All who have been sealed are guaranteed for the day of redemption. The Bible agrees with itself.
FreeGrace2 said:There is nothing in the Bible that says this. Your opinion is not found in Scripture.
FreeGrace2 said:I fully agree. To be saved, one MUST have heard the gospel, then understood the gospel, and then BELIEVED the gospel in order to be saved.
Freegrace2 said:But following Christ is a command for believers only. It will never save any unbeliever.
FreeGrace2 said:Only believers receive eternal life. Here's the proof for that:
Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Now, as to "why" they receive it: it pleases God to save those who believe:
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21
FreeGrace2 said:So, it seems you think the Bible teaches one to be their own savior, huh.
FreeGrace2 said:I've never argued otherwise. But what would make one assume that "falling" means losing salvation?
I said this:
"Speaking of 1 Pet 1, let's consider v23 - " For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
So, please explain how one born of imperishable seed could ever perish."
FreeGrace2 said:Are you kidding?? No, the verse is about our NEW NATURE (2 Cor 5:17). The verse says clearly that we "have been BORN AGAIN". By imperishable seed. Therefore, just as our physical seed is corruptible and will perish, our new nature cannot perish.
FreeGrace2 said:Abusing the present tense doesn't help your view. The aorist tense is used frequently as well. If continuous belief was NECESSARY to stay saved, then the Bible would NEVER have used the aorist. But it does.
You've shown no such thing. Just your opinion. And Scripture had to be misread in order to come to your conclusion.
Notice how you ignored what I proved about the present and aorist tense.
Please go back to John 4 where Jesus used the verb "to drink" the water He gives in the aorist tense. iow, just ONE drink and one will NEVER thirst again.
FreeGrace2 said:Nonsense. Why do you keep ignoring the aorist tense in these verses?
John 4 "drink"
Luke 8:12 "lest they believe and be saved"
Acts 16:31 "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"
Rom 10:9 "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
FreeGrace2 said:I'm happy to tell you that those who believe will never perish.
FreeGrace2 said:So tell me, why did Paul use the aorist tense in Acts 16:31, if one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved?
There are many verses that use the aorist tense, which you've admitted to not wanting to deal with.FreeGrace2 said:Of course not. Because it refutes your claims about the present tense.
And, Jesus refutes your abuse of the present tense. In Luke 8:13 He said the second soil "believed for a while". That is present tense, but they sure didn't "continue to believe" as being claimed about the present tense. And in the previous verse Jesus used the aorist tense for "lest they believe and be saved".
Then you simply do not even grasp the issue at all.
Once again, one is saved by a point in time belief in Christ. Very plainly stated.
And, present tense believing doesn't mean continuous believing.
It seems reading comprehension isn't your forte. v.12 does NOT say the first soil "quit believing" as you claim here. They NEVER believed. And the point is that one is saved from aorist tense believing. Period. Not present tense believing.
Rather, you've already admitted that you're not going to deal with the aorist tense. And it's obvious why. It refutes your false claims about the present tense.
Where would anyone see any "requirement" to be a sheep in v.27? Jesus is simply noting what His sheep do. But the requirement for being saved is found in 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
So, what do you think Jesus meant in 10:9?
Wow. Wrong again. This is what the Bible says about God's faithfulness in 2 Tim 2:
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
There are 2 parts in v.12; enduring (in the faith) or denying Him (which is the opposite of enduring in the faith).
What Jesus will deny us is reigning with Him, obviously. Not loss of salvation.
Now, v.13 makes clear that even when believers are unfaithful (don't endure), God REMAINS FAITHFUL. And Paul even gives the reason why: "for He cannot deny Himself".
Since all "having believed" are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14) the phrase "He cannot deny Himself" obviously refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit in those who have believed.
The phrase "having believed" is aorist tense, the tense that refutes your abuse of the present tense.
This demonstrates a complete failure to grasp the aorist tense.
Wrong. One drink in the past does it. Not continuous drinking as you falsely claim.
That is EXACTLY what Jesus told the woman:
"but whoever drinks (aorist) the water I give them will never thirst (again). Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
The words are clear and the aorist tense means a point in time action. Not continuous action. If continuous action were required, Jesus would never have used the aorist tense. Or maybe you're accusing our Lord of bad grammar. Is that it?
Demonstrating a failure to understand the subjunctive mood. The point is that IF one takes that single aorist tense drink, THEN they will never thirst again.
Yes it does.
The constative aorist shows drinking is not one single momentary act:
(my emp)
The Greek verb for "drinks" is the subjunctive aorist piei. According to Lenski (p. 310), this verb "expresses one act of drinking, which is never repeated." The aorist tense, however, does not demand a single, unrepeated act. As Shank (p. 80) does, we might regard piei here as a constative aorist. Concerning the constative aorist, Wallace (p. 557) writes, "The event might be iterative in nature, or durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. It places the stress on the act of the occurrence, not its nature."
According to the NAU, Jesus said (John 7:37-38), "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" NAU With regard to these verses, Stott (pp. 53-54) writes:
Now the verbs (thirsting, coming, drinking, believing) are all in the present tense. So we are not only to come to Jesus once, in penitence and faith, but also thereafter to keep coming and to keep drinking, because we keep thirsting.
Link: John 4:7-15
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