Eternal Security and Apostasy

[Copperhead]

Thanks. You did a better job than I did stating the case.

 

[TheSeabass]

These passages do NOT say anything about "shall not enter the kingdom of heaven". That's a misread. They say they'll "have no inheritance in the kingdom" (Eph) or "shall not inherit the kingdom". That's NOT saying "shall not enter".

Having an inheritance IN the kingdom is reserved for faithfulness and obedience. iow, rewards IN the kingdom.

If those passages did say anything about a saved person unable to enter heaven, the Bible would be GROSSLY contradictory. Why? Glad you asked.

Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. John 10:28

Did you notice that there were no conditions for recipients to never perish? Nope. None.

iow, once a person receives eternal life, Jesus guarantees that they will never perish.

1) if the fornicator in 1 Cor 5 never lost his salvation then it was useless, senseless and even hypocritical for Paul and others to use church discipline against the fornicator when the fornicator was just as saved and in no more sin than others there were. And it makes no sense for Paul to tell them to use discipline against the fornicator that he "may be saved" if his salvation was a unconditional guarantee.

2) any and all fornicators will not be saved, will not enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven.
So your position is the fornicator will not INHERIT the kingdom of heaven but will still enter the kingdom of heaven. The fornicator does not have to do the will of the Father but still shall enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21). You create major contradictions among scriptures by claiming the fornicator never lost his salvation when many verses says fornicators are lost.

3) there is no verse that says Christ has made salvation an unconditional guarantee regardless of the behavior of the Christian or that a Christians sins are automatically, unconditionally forgiven.

4)As people can see in this thread, you have no doubt either cut out or blacked out John 10:27 out of the bible you use. The sheep of v28 that shall "never perish" are the ones who faithfully maintain their hearing and following of Christ. So the 'never perishing" is CONDITIONAL upon one's faithful hearing and following of Christ and no other verse negates this or changes this simple fact.

The passage says NOTHING about him being "spiritually dead". Please don't make stuff up.

The passage says nothing about him being spiritually alive or that he never lost his salvation either. One does not mourn those who are alive but mourn those that are dead and this was dead in his sins or there is no such thing as being dead in sin. The only thing being made up here is that Christians who commit fornication cannot lose their salvation while living in this sin. Paul says Christians are 'dead to sin" Rom 6:2 yet your position is a Christian can be alive ti sin, live in sin and yet be saved while living in that sinful state.

We should always mourn believers who turn away from the Lord in word or actions. But not because they've lost salvation.

That is impossible, for Jesus guarantees that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

No verse says one can turn form the Lord and still be saved or that Christ has made salvation an unconditional guarantee for the Christian no matter the Christians' behavior.....and you accuse others of making things up!?!?!

Please read from v.1 and count the number of times the word "fellowship" occurs in the first chapter. That is the subject of the first chapter; fellowship with God. Sin breaks fellowship. Confession restores fellowship, not salvation.

One cannot be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved.

".... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ....This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all...If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:..."

You say one can turn his back on God and have no fellowship with God, can walk in in darkness, lie and yet still be saved. Incredible...who can truly believe such a thing. Even bible novices know better.

You create out of thin air such an incredible position for the sole purpose to try and find away to get around all the CONDITIONAL statements in 1 John 1:6-10.

v7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

v9- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Having all sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ (v7) and to be forgiven of sins (v9) is conditional as proven by the use of the conditional preposition "IF". No unconditional guarantee of salvation/forgiveness of sins can be found here at all.

You would have us not look at or dismiss the conditional preposition here in 1 John as you would have us dismiss or ignore John 10:27, the present tense, subjunctive mood and the required faithfulness commanded upon the Christian.

 

[TheSeabass]

Thanks. You did a better job than I did stating the case.

Do you agree with FreeGrace2 that Christ has unconditionally guaranteed salvation meaning that the Christian can turn his back on God and have no fellowship with God, can walk in darkness, lie and die in this state and still be saved anyway?

 

[Copperhead]

The problem stems from equating being given eternal life and rewarded for faithful service. If ones works are all from improper motives, they are "burned" like hay and stubble. But they still have eternal life. If their works are good, from proper motives, they are like gold and jewels and rewarded. Your contention turns eternal life that was paid in full by Jesus into a works religion. That dog won't hunt.

Re-read Romans 8

 

[FreeGrace2]

1) if the fornicator in 1 Cor 5 never lost his salvation then it was useless, senseless and even hypocritical for Paul and others to use church discipline against the fornicator when the fornicator was just as saved and in no more sin than others there were.

The point of discipline was to REMOVE the sinner from the congregation. Not to restore salvation.

And it makes no sense for Paul to tell them to use discipline against the fornicator that he "may be saved" if his salvation was a unconditional guarantee.

John 10:28 IS an UNCONDITIONAL GUARANTEE that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Or is your view that some recipients of eternal life can perish? Which would be the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Jesus promised?

As people can see in this thread, you have no doubt either cut out or blacked out John 10:27 out of the bible you use.

Pure nonsense. v.27 doesn't add any condition to recipients of eternal life who will never perish.

If v.27 was a condition, then Jesus would have said:
I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and as long as they follow Me, they will never perish.

But He said no such thing. He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life.

But you can deny that all you want.

The sheep of v28 that shall "never perish" are the ones who faithfully maintain their hearing and following of Christ.

Wrong. Jesus taught WHEN one receives eternal life in John 5:24. When one believes, is WHEN one HAS eternal life.

So the UNCONDITIONAL promise of John 10:28 is in EFFECT WHEN one first believes.

That is eternal security.

So the 'never perishing" is CONDITIONAL upon one's faithful hearing and following of Christ and no other verse negates this or changes this simple fact.

The text does NOT say that. Not even close.

One cannot be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved.

".... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ....This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all...If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:..."

Which exact words would lead one to the conclusion that being out of fellowship equals being unsaved???

You say one can turn his back on God and have no fellowship with God, can walk in in darkness, lie and yet still be saved.

I say what Jesus promised: recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Incredible

yes, grace is just that; incredible!!

...who can truly believe such a thing.

Anyone who believes what Jesus plainly says.

Even bible novices know better.

Any one can deny the truth that Jesus promised. It doesn't change the truth.

You create out of thin air such an incredible position for the sole purpose to try and find away to get around all the CONDITIONAL statements in 1 John 1:6-10.

Do those conditional statements nullify the UNCONDITIONAL romise that Jesus made in John 10:28? Are you comfortable with having Scripture contradict itself??

v7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

v9- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Having all sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ (v7) and to be forgiven of sins (v9) is conditional as proven by the use of the conditional preposition "IF". No unconditional guarantee of salvation/forgiveness of sins can be found here at all.

You would have us not look at or dismiss the conditional preposition here in 1 John as you would have us dismiss or ignore John 10:27, the present tense, subjunctive mood and the required faithfulness commanded upon the Christian.

Just a very poor understanding of the text.

Jesus' UNCONDITONAL promise in Jn 10:28 is clear enough for anyone to accept.

Those who don't believe that all recipients of eternal life will never perish are just against what Jesus promised.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem stems from equating being given eternal life and rewarded for faithful service. If ones works are all from improper motives, they are "burned" like hay and stubble. But they still have eternal life. If their works are good, from proper motives, they are like gold and jewels and rewarded. Your contention turns eternal life that was paid in full by Jesus into a works religion. That dog won't hunt.

Re-read Romans 8

 

[JamesFW]

But He said no such thing. He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life.

What if you hate your brother?

1 John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

How does one who hates his brother have eternal life abiding in him?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"But He said no such thing. He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life."

What if you hate your brother?

Did Jesus make this promise: "I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS none of them hate their brother, they will never perish."

No, He didn't. He gave no conditions beyond receiving the gift of eternal life.

1 John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

How does one who hates his brother have eternal life abiding in him?

Is this a suggestion that Jesus and John were in disagreement??

Either they ARE in disagreement, or your understanding of 1 Jn 3:15 is incorrect.

I reject the notion that any verse contradicts any other verse, so I have to disagree with your understanding of 1 Jn 3:15.

 

[JamesFW]

I said this:
"But He said no such thing. He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life."

Did Jesus make this promise: "I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS none of them hate their brother, they will never perish."

No, He didn't. He gave no conditions beyond receiving the gift of eternal life.


Is this a suggestion that Jesus and John were in disagreement??

Either they ARE in disagreement, or your understanding of 1 Jn 3:15 is incorrect.

I reject the notion that any verse contradicts any other verse, so I have to disagree with your understanding of 1 Jn 3:15.

No sir, the only contradiction is in your belief. It seems you don't believe what John said. I'm not suggesting anything; I am telling you the truth John gave us. If you hate your brother, you don't have eternal life abiding in you. Do you want to believe it says something else? Go right ahead, that is your privilege and freedom. But don't tell us that is not what it says.

Do you believe a man who hates his brother has eternal life abiding in him?

 

[FreeGrace2]

No sir, the only contradiction is in your belief.

Hold that thought.

It seems you don't believe what John said.

Hold that thought.

I'm not suggesting anything; I am telling you the truth John gave us. If you hate your brother, you don't have eternal life abiding in you. Do you want to believe it says something else? Go right ahead, that is your privilege and freedom. But don't tell us that is not what it says.

OK, I've been charged with a contradictory belief.

I gave you exactly what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life: they will never perish. Is seems you'd rather believe that some recipients, those who hate their brothers, WILL PERISH, all in spite of what Jesus PROMISES. How is that not contradictory?

You can't just ignore what Jesus very clearly promised. We know what John said.

Now, since it seems there is a contradiction between what Jesus said and what John said (keep in mind that John was the writer who wrote down what Jesus promised in John 10:28).

Which verse do you believe MORE? What Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, or what John said about haters?

We HAVE TO believe BOTH of them. And understand what John meant, since what Jesus said is crystal clear. Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Do you believe a man who hates his brother has eternal life abiding in him?

John was clear. The answer is no. But let's understand what he was meaning.

If a believer hates a fellow believer, he STILL HAS eternal life IN him because Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then said that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

The context for 1 John 3:15 begins at v.11 - For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

Then he gives an example of what hatred looks like in v.12 - Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. Murder is driven by hatred.

Then in v.14 - We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Here, John is speaking about the experience of their passage from death to life through loving their fellow believers.

btw, "passed from death to life" is EXACTLY what Jesus said in John 5:24, which eatablishes WHEN one HAS eternal life - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has passed over from death to life.

The implication is that that passage "from death to life" which occurs at the point of salvation can be experientially known and appreciated through Christian love.

But, by contrast, the believer who doesn't love his fellow believer "abides in death".

If love is an experience of "life" (which it is), then hatred of another is an experience of death. The context from v.11 on is a contrast between the experience of life and death.

There is no reasonable objection to the concept of a believer "abiding in death" in the sense that he has lost touch with the experience of God's life.

So, in v.15, John is NOT saying "no murderer has eternal life in him". IF he WAS saying that, he would be in DIRECT CONFLICT with Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

The key is the concept of "abiding". John's concept of "abiding" is always that it a reciprocal relationship, even as Jesus said "Abide in Me, and I in you" in Jn 15:4.

So, either Jesus' promise is untrue, or John's words are untrue, or one can accept my explanation that allows both verses to be true without any conflict or contradiction.

 

[JamesFW]

Hold that thought.


Hold that thought.


OK, I've been charged with a contradictory belief.

I gave you exactly what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life: they will never perish. Is seems you'd rather believe that some recipients, those who hate their brothers, WILL PERISH, all in spite of what Jesus PROMISES. How is that not contradictory?

You can't just ignore what Jesus very clearly promised. We know what John said.

Now, since it seems there is a contradiction between what Jesus said and what John said (keep in mind that John was the writer who wrote down what Jesus promised in John 10:28).

Which verse do you believe MORE? What Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, or what John said about haters?

We HAVE TO believe BOTH of them. And understand what John meant, since what Jesus said is crystal clear. Recipients of eternal life will never perish.


John was clear. The answer is no. But let's understand what he was meaning.

If a believer hates a fellow believer, he STILL HAS eternal life IN him because Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then said that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

The context for 1 John 3:15 begins at v.11 - For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

Then he gives an example of what hatred looks like in v.12 - Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. Murder is driven by hatred.

Then in v.14 - We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Here, John is speaking about the experience of their passage from death to life through loving their fellow believers.

btw, "passed from death to life" is EXACTLY what Jesus said in John 5:24, which eatablishes WHEN one HAS eternal life - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has passed over from death to life.

The implication is that that passage "from death to life" which occurs at the point of salvation can be experientially known and appreciated through Christian love.

But, by contrast, the believer who doesn't love his fellow believer "abides in death".

If love is an experience of "life" (which it is), then hatred of another is an experience of death. The context from v.11 on is a contrast between the experience of life and death.

There is no reasonable objection to the concept of a believer "abiding in death" in the sense that he has lost touch with the experience of God's life.

So, in v.15, John is NOT saying "no murderer has eternal life in him". IF he WAS saying that, he would be in DIRECT CONFLICT with Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

The key is the concept of "abiding". John's concept of "abiding" is always that it a reciprocal relationship, even as Jesus said "Abide in Me, and I in you" in Jn 15:4.

So, either Jesus' promise is untrue, or John's words are untrue, or one can accept my explanation that allows both verses to be true without any conflict or contradiction.

You are like a blind man who is asked to describe what an elephant is. You walk up to the elephant, feel the trunk and say an elephant is this long, rough thing with a hole at the end of it. You are absolutely correct; however, you only are taking part of the elephant and saying it is an elephant.

Another blind man touches the tail of the elephant and says an elephant is this long, skinny thing with a bushy end. He is correct, but yet, incomplete in his description.

A third blind man touched the ear of an elephant, and says it is this flat, large thing which waves in the wind. Wanna know something? He is right.

All three blind men can't be refuted; they all are correct. However, a man who can see will understand there is much more to an elephant than just what the blind men described. The blind men can argue all they want that an elephant is what they know from touch.

Sure, you gave us what Jesus said in John 10:28; but as a blind man, you have only touched that part and left the others undone. See and understand the whole.

John said without contradiction, that one who hates his brother, does not have eternal life abiding in him. Lift your hand, and 'feel' what John said. Don't deny this is also a part of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are like a blind man who is asked to describe what an elephant is. You walk up to the elephant, feel the trunk and say an elephant is this long, rough thing with a hole at the end of it. You are absolutely correct; however, you only are taking part of the elephant and saying it is an elephant.

Another blind man touches the tail of the elephant and says an elephant is this long, skinny thing with a bushy end. He is correct, but yet, incomplete in his description.

A third blind man touched the ear of an elephant, and says it is this flat, large thing which waves in the wind. Wanna know something? He is right.

This is hilarious. I just demonstrated your contradiction.

All three blind men can't be refuted; they all are correct.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they CAN be refuted, IF each one believes only the part they have felt equals elephant.

However, a man who can see will understand there is much more to an elephant than just what the blind men described. The blind men can argue all they want that an elephant is what they know from touch.

And, so, none of this has any relevance to anything.

Sure, you gave us what Jesus said in John 10:28; but as a blind man, you have only touched that part and left the others undone. See and understand the whole.

What Jesus said in Jn 10:28 is eternal security. If you believe that there are any other verses that teach that salvation can be lost, your theology is terribly contradicted.

It cannot be true that salvation cannot be lost, and that salvation can be lost.

That is simply impossible. And Jesus closed the door on those who wrongly think that salvation can be lost.

John said without contradiction, that one who hates his brother, does not have eternal life abiding in him. Lift your hand, and 'feel' what John said. Don't deny this is also a part of eternal life.

I already explained what John obviously meant. You're free to accept or reject whatever you desire.

What He could NOT have possibly meant is that a believer who hates his brother does not have eternal life in him. That directly contradicts Jesus' promise that recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

What is it about the word "never" that doesn't really mean that?

If a believer (who by definition HAS eternal life, per John 5:24) who hates a fellow believer doesn't have eternal life, then he obviously has lost it. But Jesus said that recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

ps: that's a long, long time.

Never means exactly that; never perish.

 

[JamesFW]

This is hilarious. I just demonstrated your contradiction.

Yes, they CAN be refuted, IF each one believes only the part they have felt equals elephant.

Very true, just as in your case. You have only felt the 'tail' of eternal life and think that is all there is to eternal life.

And, so, none of this has any relevance to anything.

The 'tail' you have felt is the only relevancy to you.

What Jesus said in Jn 10:28 is eternal security. If you believe that there are any other verses that teach that salvation can be lost, your theology is terribly contradicted.

Again, the 'tail' is all that is leading you.

It cannot be true that salvation cannot be lost, and that salvation can be lost.

Huh? You're contradicting yourself with that statement.

That is simply impossible. And Jesus closed the door on those who wrongly think that salvation can be lost.

You must first open the door and enter, before it can be closed.

I already explained what John obviously meant. You're free to accept or reject whatever you desire.

Again, that 'tail' is leading you down the 'blind leading the blind' trail.

What He could NOT have possibly meant is that a believer who hates his brother does not have eternal life in him. That directly contradicts Jesus' promise that recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Do you believe if a man doesn't repent, he will perish? Jesus didn't include that in your 'tail' verse, but we all know unless we repent, we will perish.

What is it about the word "never" that doesn't really mean that?

Hopefully you'll never keep hanging on to that 'tail' and say that's all there is to eternal life.

If a believer (who by definition HAS eternal life, per John 5:24) who hates a fellow believer doesn't have eternal life, then he obviously has lost it. But Jesus said that recipients of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So you do agree that if a believer hates his brother, he doesn't have eternal life; he's lost it. Now you are getting somewhere. That 'tail' keeps giving you problems though. Let go of the tail, open your eyes, and feel the rest of eternal life.

 

[Oldmantook]

Citing 1 Jn 2:19 as evidence that a truly regenerate believer cannot lose his/her cannot apostatize/lose salvation is a logical fallacy. To engage in such a fallacy, otherwise known as a fallacy of hasty generalization is to prematurely presume that the sample is representative of the whole. In other words, while it is true that SOME who departed were never believers to be begin with, it does not logically entail that ALL who depart from the faith were never believers. That's like saying since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. Therefore, it's possible that others who leave the faith were in fact genuine believers. Moreover, how is it possible for someone to apostatize or depart from the faith if he/she were never a part of the faith to begin with? It is impossible for unbelievers to depart from the faith since they do not possess saving faith to begin with. Only believers can apostatize. The warning passages in the scriptures regarding apostatizing or losing one's salvation only apply to believers; not unbelievers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Very true, just as in your case. You have only felt the 'tail' of eternal life and think that is all there is to eternal life.

How do you know that's all I think there is to eternal life? A rather presumptuous statement, it seems.

The 'tail' you have felt is the only relevancy to you.

Again, the 'tail' is all that is leading you.

This is hilarious. So, what's the "head" and the "body"?

I said this:
"It cannot be true that salvation cannot be lost, and that salvation can be lost."

Huh? You're contradicting yourself with that statement.

I'm showing that 2 opposite ideas cannot both be true, which seems to be the common view of those who think salvation can be lost.

They won't deny the clear verses on eternal security as in John 10:28, but they provide other verses as if they are also true that one can lose salvation.

Then I said this:
"That is simply impossible. And Jesus closed the door on those who wrongly think that salvation can be lost."

You must first open the door and enter, before it can be closed.

What does this mean? My metaphor meant that Jesus refuted the idea that salvation can be lost by His promise to recipients of eternal life in John 10:28.

Then I said this:
"I already explained what John obviously meant. You're free to accept or reject whatever you desire."

Again, that 'tail' is leading you down the 'blind leading the blind' trail.

So, is this some kind of insinuation that the "head" and "body", whatever they are, mean that salvation can be lost, IN SPITE of what Jesus plainly promised?

Do you believe if a man doesn't repent, he will perish?

Are we asking about one who has believed, or one who has never believed? Clear this up and I'll be able to answer your question.

Jesus didn't include that in your 'tail' verse, but we all know unless we repent, we will perish.

What you've missed from Jesus' promise is that it was guaranteed to RECIPIENTS of eternal life.

Were there any conditions for the recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish? Please advise.

Hopefully you'll never keep hanging on to that 'tail' and say that's all there is to eternal life.

I can't wait to learn what the "head" and "body" are. I hope you'll clarify.

So you do agree that if a believer hates his brother, he doesn't have eternal life; he's lost it.

No, I don't agree. Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

So, how can a believer, who is a recipient of eternal life, perish, since Jesus said that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Do you not understand just how much your question contradicts Jesus' promise??

Now you are getting somewhere. That 'tail' keeps giving you problems though. Let go of the tail, open your eyes, and feel the rest of eternal life.

Why don't you explain what this so-called "tail" is that has given me problems, and what the "head" and "body" are, that will miraculously open my eyes to the full truth?

 

[JamesFW]

How do you know that's all I think there is to eternal life? A rather presumptuous statement, it seems.

Because you keep repeating yourself.

This is hilarious. So, what's the "head" and the "body"?

Open your eyes; it's there for everyone to know and understand.

I said this:
"It cannot be true that salvation cannot be lost, and that salvation can be lost."

I'm showing that 2 opposite ideas cannot both be true, which seems to be the common view of those who think salvation can be lost.

Then it cannot be true that those who don't repent won't perish, and that those who do repent won't perish.

They won't deny the clear verses on eternal security as in John 10:28, but they provide other verses as if they are also true that one can lose salvation.

So, what is 'perish' to you? Is 'perish' salvation?

Then I said this:
"That is simply impossible. And Jesus closed the door on those who wrongly think that salvation can be lost."

What does this mean? My metaphor meant that Jesus refuted the idea that salvation can be lost by His promise to recipients of eternal life in John 10:28.

His promise was to those who repent and don't hate their brothers.

Then I said this:
"I already explained what John obviously meant. You're free to accept or reject whatever you desire."

So, is this some kind of insinuation that the "head" and "body", whatever they are, mean that salvation can be lost, IN SPITE of what Jesus plainly promised?

It's obvious those who hate their brother do not abide in eternal life. This is the head you cannot see.

Are we asking about one who has believed, or one who has never believed? Clear this up and I'll be able to answer your question.

It's about everyone. Now clear up what you don't see.

What you've missed from Jesus' promise is that it was guaranteed to RECIPIENTS of eternal life.

Hate your brother and do not repent and you have not received eternal life.

Were there any conditions for the recipients of eternal life so that they will never perish? Please advise.

Unbelievable.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

No, I don't agree. Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish.

No repentance, no reception. No love, no reception.

So, how can a believer, who is a recipient of eternal life, perish, since Jesus said that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

They don't repent. Again, no repentance, no reception. No love, no reception.

Do you not understand just how much your question contradicts Jesus' promise??

His promise is to those who repent and love their brothers.

Why don't you explain what this so-called "tail" is that has given me problems, and what the "head" and "body" are, that will miraculously open my eyes to the full truth?

Nothing will miraculously open your eyes. Until you repent and love your brothers, you will perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because you keep repeating yourself.

To make a point that is being ignored or dismissed.

I asked:
"So, what's the "head" and the "body"?"

Open your eyes; it's there for everyone to know and understand.

This is nothing more than a cop-out for not having an answer to my question.

If there were "more" to eternal life than what I've been repeating, it would have been EASY to explain. But thanks for this admission of having no answer.

I said this:
"It cannot be true that salvation cannot be lost, and that salvation can be lost."

I'm showing that 2 opposite ideas cannot both be true, which seems to be the common view of those who think salvation can be lost."

Then it cannot be true that those who don't repent won't perish, and that those who do repent won't perish.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Jesus' promise was simple and clear; recipients of eternal life will never perish. He said nothing about having to repent in His promise. May you missed that.

So, what is 'perish' to you? Is 'perish' salvation?

To "perish" is to be cast into the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium. What did you think it means?

His promise was to those who repent and don't hate their brothers.

Here's the verses from John 10 -
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Again, there is nothing about repenting. The "them" in v.28 are His sheep obviously, from v.27.

He described how one becomes His sheep in John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

It's obvious those who hate their brother do not abide in eternal life. This is the head you cannot see.

I see the head. I have given the explanation for what it means to "has eternal life abiding in him".

I asked this:
"Are we asking about one who has believed, or one who has never believed? Clear this up and I'll be able to answer your question."

It's about everyone. Now clear up what you don't see.

That cleared up nothing. What is clear is your misunderstanding between those who have believed and those who have never believed.

Hate your brother and do not repent and you have not received eternal life.

No verse says such a thing. Instead, there are a number of verses that indicate in plain language that one receives eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ.

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

His promise is to those who repent and love their brothers.

This is a misread of Jesus' promise. He promised those who receive eternal life that they will never perish.

Do you agree that anyone who receives eternal life will never perish?

Nothing will miraculously open your eyes. Until you repent and love your brothers, you will perish.

Once again you've made an unfounded judgment against me. You are not God. You have no omniscience, so stop pretending that you do.

Your theology depends upon you to save you. My theology, which is the Bible's, depends upon what Christ did for the human race:
He died on the cross for all sins.
He paid the sin debt we all owe.
He gives the free gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.
He promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

That's John 10:28, which it seems you do not agree with.

Why don't you agree with what Jesus promises recipients of eternal life?

 

[Oldmantook]

Regarding Jn 10:28-29 which is one of the bedrock passages quoted by those who believe in eternal security. Those who hold to this view ignore v.27 which states that only those sheep who listen and follow the shepherd are known by Jesus. Those sheep who don't listen and follow; i.e. disobey are not included in the promises of vs.28-29.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Regarding Jn 10:28-29 which is one of the bedrock passages quoted by those who believe in eternal security. Those who hold to this view ignore v.27 which states that only those sheep who listen and follow the shepherd are known by Jesus. Those sheep who don't listen and follow; i.e. disobey are not included in the promises of vs.28-29.

v.27 does not constitute the condition for never perishing. Also, the word "only" is not found in v.27. So there is no way to conclude that disobedient sheep are not included in the promise.

Jesus did not say: "I give them eternal life, and as long as they follow Me, they will never perish."

The SOLE CONDITION for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life. That is exactly what Jesus promised.

Eternal security is based on what Jesus has done for us. It is NOT based on what we may or may not do for Him.

Jesus also spoke of WHEN one receives eternal life in John 5:24. When one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

So the promise of never perishing begins at the moment one is saved.

 

[Oldmantook]

Reply to #139
Unfortunately, your response is based on an argument from silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. The verse plainly states that Jesus knows those sheep who are obedient; i.e. listen and follow. If Jesus had meant to include all sheep including those who wander and are disobedient, why did he not include or refer to them also? Rather, Jesus specified that his sheep are those who obey and as a result have eternal life. If you want to include disobedient sheep too, that is your prerogative but Jesus certainly didn't say that as you would have to imply that he meant that, which in my opinion amounts to eisegeting the text.

Just because eternal life begins at the moment of belief, it in no way guarantees that a believer will go on believing. One must continue to believe and if for whatever reason one ceases to believe, then he/she no longer has eternal life. Jn 3:16 states that belief is necessary for eternal life but the Greek word for "believes" in this verse is pisteuon which is a present tense verb properly translated as "believing." Therefore one must go on BELIEVING in order to remain saved - not just at the moment of initial belief.

Furthermore, Jesus has certainly secured salvation for those who are believing in him but in addition to believing in him, he requires that we obey him. If you believe Jn 3:16 as a requirement for salvation, do you not also believe Heb 5:9 as a requirement for salvation? "and having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all those obeying Him." Obeying/hypakouousin is also a present tense verb so a believer must also continue in obedience (listening and following) in order to possess eternal life. This verse makes it clear that disobedient sheep do not have eternal salvation - only those obeying Him.