Eternal Security and Apostasy

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.

I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.

While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19

 

[John Hyperspace]

they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning

Okay but no one actually "constantly sins" right? One of the big problems with the idea is that there are different "allowances" of sin. But the law never made such statements. You are either a law-keeper, or, a law-breaker; there is no middle ground. There is no such a thing as "much/little" there is only "keep or break". Do, or, do not. People will make a big talk about "obedience to rules" but think about it: unless a man is perfect, then he sins. Sometimes he obeys the rules, sometimes he doesn't. To varying degrees either way. So we can call ourselves, rule-breakers, or, rule-keepers; because sometimes we do the one, other times, the other. But now, why would we think people would choose to call themselves "rule-keepers" and not "rule-breakers" when they could equally choose to call themselves either thing. Why do some people ignore the "rule-breaker" that they sometimes are, and call themselves by the "rule-keeper" idea? Well, it's certainly not humility, right? So what is the opposite of humility? And, is the opposite of humility something God praises?

What I mean by this is, if we can be "unsaved/unresurrected" by "continuing to sin" then I guess it's bad news, because it looks like God couldn't save anyone of us. Or, I suppose, from the "I am saved because of what I do" crowd's point of view, no one could save themselves. They just couldn't be perfect and thus, all lost?

What I really wonder is, Jesus said "My peace I give you" and I have to wonder about this "salvation yo-yo" "saved not saved" "dead not dead, dead again" "keep the rules, except when you fail" "are we saved? who knows?" - how exactly is this bringing "peace" to anyone. What in the world kind of "peace" is this? Sometimes, the things people preach and believe are just, funny. It's just so funny.

 

[david.d]

I haven't read up on modern Anabaptist theology, but it is believed Calvin adopted his beliefs from the Anabaptists. Originally they definitely believed in eternal security.

One thing that could be throwing you off is the distinctions they made between salvation and eternal life. Early Baptists believed Christians experience a salvation in this world and have eternal life. If a Christian is "dead", it means they have fallen away from salvation on earth, but they are still born again and have eternal life.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Thanks for your responses! Very insightful.

The main thing that made me reject eternal security is the parallel I mentioned in the OP about relaying the foundation and the example of the Israelites having to go back to Egypt. If I can find the article again, I'll link it.

Another reason is that I greatly admire the Anabaptist tradition because I see their faith as the truest expression of Christianity and I find a lot of their beliefs not only Scriptural, but also pretty close to the early church doctrines.

Before that, I was considering the Plymouth Brethren or the Anglican Communion.

 

[GentleSheepman]

Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.

I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.

While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints

 

[Honoluluwindow]

Thanks for your responses! Very insightful.

The main thing that made me reject eternal security is the parallel I mentioned in the OP about relaying the foundation and the example of the Israelites having to go back to Egypt. If I can find the article again, I'll link it.

Another reason is that I greatly admire the Anabaptist tradition because I see their faith as the truest expression of Christianity and I find a lot of their beliefs not only Scriptural, but also pretty close to the early church doctrines.

Before that, I was considering the Plymouth Brethren or the Anglican Communion.

When did they go back to Egypt faithless pilgrim my son?

 

[Winken]

Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.

I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.

While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19

Those who "went out" were not born-again Believers in the first place. They looked in on the faith, then backed away.

As to eternal security, it is, indeed, eternal. There are those born-again Believers who sadly drift away, but they can never depart the Faith, their promise of salvation by Grace through Faith. There are those who drift or step out of fellowship, but never out of Grace. Their return to fellowship is in 1 John 1:9, known as repentance.

The Anabaptist believes that one actually falls from Grace and then must repent.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

When did they go back to Egypt faithless pilgrim my son?

They didn't. That was just a made up example used by the article to explain why they rejected the view that apostates were never saved to begin with.

 

[CodyFaith]

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Sealed unto the day of redemption. Not "sealed unless you sin too gravely/leave the faith" not "sealed temporarily unless you sin" but sealed unto the day of redemption. Guaranteed.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Passed from death unto life. One time thing, passed. Won't come into condemnation, has eternal life.

Another verse about being passed from death unto life:
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

They didn't. That was just a made up example used by the article to explain why they rejected the view that apostates were never saved to begin with.

Doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Adstar]

Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.

I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.

While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19

Salvation is not so much lost.. But a person can cast away their own salvation by disbelieving Jesus and by no longer trusting in the Atonement Jesus secured for their salvation...

If sinning caused us to lose our salvation then No one would ever be saved because all people continue to sin in thoughts and actions right up to the day of their deaths.. Jesus has our sins covered with His atoning blood..

Basically i believe you are going from one misguided teaching OSAS to another misguided teaching Works Salvation.

We are saved by Believing and Trusting Jesus .
We are saved when we are Forgiven all our transgressions agains the will of God.. Not by our success in sin avoidance..

 

[Honoluluwindow]

Salvation is not so much lost.. But a person can cast away their own salvation by disbelieving Jesus and by no longer trusting in the Atonement Jesus secured for their salvation...

If sinning caused us to lose our salvation then No one would ever be saved because all people continue to sin in thoughts and actions right up to the day of their deaths.. Jesus has our sins covered with His atoning blood..

Basically i believe you are going from one misguided teaching OSAS to another misguided teaching Works Salvation.

We are saved by Believing and Trusting Jesus .
We are saved when we are Forgiven all our transgressions agains the will of God.. Not by our success in sin avoidance..

Wrong.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

I am already living my eternal life.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am already living my eternal life.

How do you equate that with this?
"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29).
So if a person repudiates his belief in Christ and rejects His salvation, then doesn't this scripture apply to him? Of course it can also apply to an unbeliever who is presented with the gospel and who utterly rejects and ridicules it.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Salvation is not so much lost.. But a person can cast away their own salvation by disbelieving Jesus and by no longer trusting in the Atonement Jesus secured for their salvation...

If sinning caused us to lose our salvation then No one would ever be saved because all people continue to sin in thoughts and actions right up to the day of their deaths.. Jesus has our sins covered with His atoning blood..

Basically i believe you are going from one misguided teaching OSAS to another misguided teaching Works Salvation.

We are saved by Believing and Trusting Jesus .
We are saved when we are Forgiven all our transgressions agains the will of God.. Not by our success in sin avoidance..

Good point. I guess my question is actually whether eternal security is conditional or unconditional.

 

[GentleSheepman]

• 1Peter 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
• John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
• John 6:35-37: Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
• John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."
• Romans 5:9: Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
• Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
• Romans 8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
• Romans 8:38-39: For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• Romans 11:29: For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
• Hebrews 3:14: For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
• 1 John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
• 1 Corinthians 15:10: But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
• 2 Corinthians 5:19: ...that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
• Ephesians 2:4-6: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved — and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...
• Ephesians 4:30: And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
• Philippians 1:6: And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
• 2 Timothy 1:12: ...which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.
• 2 Timothy 2:13: ...if we are faithless, he remains faithful — for he cannot deny himself.
• Hebrews 13:20-21: Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
• 1 John 3:9: No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
• 1 John 5:4-5: For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
• Ephesians 1:13-14: In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
• John 17:2,12: "...since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." (12) "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."
• 1 Corinthians 1:6-8: ...even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you — so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
• 2 Thessalonians 3:3: But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.
• Hebrews 9:12: ...he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
• 1 Peter 1:3-5: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
• 1 John 5:11-13: And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
• Hebrews 6:17-19: So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain...
• Jeremiah 32:39-40: I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
• Psalms 121
• Isaiah 46:3-4: Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all the remnant of the house of Israel, who have been borne by me from before your birth, carried from the womb; even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.
• Romans 9:6-8: But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
• Psalms 20:6: Now I know that the LORD saves his anointed; he will answer him from his holy heaven with the saving might of his right hand.
• Psalms 31:23: Love the LORD, all you his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful but abundantly repays the one who acts in pride.
• Psalms 37:28: For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.
• Psalms 55:22: Cast your burden on the LORD, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.
• Psalms 125:1-2: They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever. As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the Lord is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[bling]

The “gift” from God includes a lot more than just eternal life in heaven; there is: Godly type Love that can grow, the indwelling Holy Spirit, sharing in God’s work here on earth, fellowship with other Christians, and the birthright that includes heaven.

Eternal life is referred to as our inheritance and not something we are enjoying right now. Eternal life is ours just as the deed to a house in heaven means we have a heavenly home right now, but can that deed be given away?

Eph. 1: 13 …were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,

Heb. 12: 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.



The Heb. Write is telling us not to sell our inheritance (birth right) for nothing or very little.



Gal.6: 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Paul is telling us not to give up doing good and going back to sowing after the flesh, because we can give up our inheritance (eternal life).

It is our gift from God and one of the ways you know something is yours is by the fact you can give it up or sell it. If you cannot give something up or sell it is it really your possession?

God does not take our free will away. We do not continue to do good stuff (cease the opportunities before us) because we are trying to get something or even keep it, because no one can or will take it away from us, but if we do stop sowing after the Spirit we can lose interest in God’s Love and thus go to seeking the perceived pleasures of a selfish love. If Godly type Love has no value to us we could give it up.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

How do you equate that with this?
"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29).
So if a person repudiates his belief in Christ and rejects His salvation, then doesn't this scripture apply to him? Of course it can also apply to an unbeliever who is presented with the gospel and who utterly rejects and ridicules it.

That passage speaks of physical death not spiritual death.