Eternal Security and Apostasy

[Winken]

(Hebrews 10:29)
So if a person repudiates his belief in Christ and rejects His salvation, then doesn't this scripture apply to him? Of course it can also apply to an unbeliever who is presented with the gospel and who utterly rejects and ridicules it.

It is applicable to Hebrew folk of that day who looked into salvation by Grace through Faith, then rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah as a people group. That is the spot-on interpretation and application of the passage. The Book of Hebrews, although quite informative for we Christians, is directed to the Jews of that day, not to individual Christians today.

 

[Winken]

Applicable to Christians:
Ephesians 1: 13 …were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,

Applicable to Jews in that day, prior to the Cross:
Hebrews 12: 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Paul is telling us not to give up doing good and going back to sowing after the flesh, because we can give up our inheritance (eternal life). Actually, eternal life for the Christian is secure for eternity.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is applicable to Hebrew folk of that day who looked into salvation by Grace through Faith, then rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah as a people group. That is the spot-on interpretation and application of the passage. The Book of Hebrews, although quite informative for we Christians, is directed to the Jews of that day, not to individual Christians today.

So, if you apply the same rule, you would have to say that the letters of Paul directed to specific churches are informative for us today but not applicable? Just askin'...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That passage speaks of physical death not spiritual death.

Oh? Where does it specify physical death only? Or is it just the way you read it?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
James 1

35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
------------
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 3

What is your point here? Anyone can cobble a few scriptures together to make the Bible say what he wants it to say, but it is better to give your interpretation and commentary on what you have quoted so we know where you are coming from. On the face of it, you appear to be a legalist, who is actually opposing the gospel of Christ, so you need to put us right if necessary.

 

[Winken]

So, if you apply the same rule, you would have to say that the letters of Paul directed to specific churches are informative for us today but not applicable? Just askin'...

The letters of Paul are directed to Gentiles and Jews. Their intent is to inform both of salvation by Grace through Faith, not the works of the Law, Prophecy, or religion (an organized system of beliefs requiring sustaining works). They create for each individual, Jew or Gentile, the Path to God's Amazing Grace. As I often quote, that Path is found in acknowledging John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:1, and then in Faith believing and confessing Romans 10:8-13. In the latter Paul explicitly points all people, everywhere, to eternal security in Christ (Messiah), who in Christian terminology becomes our Savior. The past failures of the Jews to comply with the Abrahamic Covenant (Grace for God's Chosen People), then struggling under the heavy weight of the Law of Moses (with which they could not possibly comply), opened the door to the appearance of our awesome, wonderful, magnificent Savior, who IN HIMSELF embodied compliance with every jot and tittle of any law, rule, ordinance, process, procedure, work, effort, providing His embrace for every confessing Jew and Gentile at the Cross.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

Oh? Where does it specify physical death only? Or is it just the way you read it?

The context is not spiritual salvation as spiritual salvation is by grace alone. The fact that salvation is not earned by works means salvation isn't lost by works either.
Therefore we look at first the addressees of the letter; believing Jews. Next we look at the surrounding circumstances in light of other related passages such as Messiah's prophecy that the city would fall and the Temple destroyed. That prophecy was literally at the door since the letter was written just before the A.D. Destruction. Thirdly, the Jewish believer's predicament. Jews who believed in Yeshua were under SEVERE persecution from their Jewish countrymen who were under the Temple system that controlled most of Jewish economic life. Because the church was predominantly Jewish then the church was considered just another sect within Judaism. The Jewish believers therefore thought they might hide their belief in Christ and go along with the Jews until the persecution lightened up and then show themselves to believe again. This was something that the writer claimed was impossible since it would require the Messiah to die a second time for them. Because it was known to the writer that the coming judgement was very near he wrote this as a warning for the Jewish believers to exit the city. Something that Josephus wrote actually happened in that not one Jewish believer was in Jerusalem when it was destroyed. Thus the death spoken of was physical and not loss of spiritual salvation since that would require spiritual salvation to come by human works, something I know you don't believe is theologically possible anyway.

 

[Adstar]

Good point. I guess my question is actually whether eternal security is conditional or unconditional.

I do not believe in Eternal security.. We must continue in Belief and Faith... Of course God knows who will continue in belief and faith because He has foreknowledge of all our lives.. But we do not know our own futures.. Whether we shall continue believing the Gospel or if we will one day become disbelievers and reject the Gospel..

 

[Winken]

I do not believe in Eternal security.. We must continue in Belief and Faith... Of course God knows who will continue in belief and faith because He has foreknowledge of all our lives.. But we do not know our own futures.. Whether we shall continue believing the Gospel or if we will one day become disbelievers and reject the Gospel..

See Post #27. Thanks.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

Oh? Where does it specify physical death only? Or is it just the way you read it?

I answered this already but I'll add this. At Kadesh Barnea the Israelites were condemned to physical death in the wilderness and not spiritual loss of salvation. When Israel was deported to Babylon the prophets Ezekiel and Jeremiah told the Jews to take root in captivity and not resist and they would prosper. They warned Judah not to rely on Egypt but to accept the judgement of God and go into captivity willingly. If they disobeyed the result would be physical death. It is an assumption to say that in those two examples it is speaking of spiritual loss of salvation that betokens unworthy scholarship to the highest degree! The historical references speak of physical death resulting from disobeying God's warnings. Same is true in the letter to the Hebrews where once again the Jews are being warned.

 

[Adstar]

See Post #27. Thanks.

What has your post 27 got to do with the doctrine of Eternal security ??? Nothing as i can see..

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.

I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

How much of this can be easily seen in Scripture?

The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.

How much of this can be easily seen in Scripture?

While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19

This is what I find convincing from Scripture:
1. Eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23.
2. God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.
3. Eternal life is received when one believes, from John 5:24.
4. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish, from John 10:28.
5. Peter wrote that believers are born again with imperishable seed, from 1 Pet 1:23.

From these, and more verses, there is no way anyone who has received the gift of eternal life can ever perish. Ever.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do not believe in Eternal security..

Yet, the Bible very clearly teaches eternal security.

We must continue in Belief and Faith...

Yet, there are no verses that clearly teach that.

Of course God knows who will continue in belief and faith because He has foreknowledge of all our lives.. But we do not know our own futures.. Whether we shall continue believing the Gospel or if we will one day become disbelievers and reject the Gospel..

So, basically then, we maintain our salvation by our continued belief. That makes one their own savior.

These are biblical facts regarding eternal security:
1. Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24.
2. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.
3. Paul taught that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
4. Paul taught that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
5. Peter taught that believers have been born again with imperishable seed in 1 Pet 1:23.

The only conclusion is that those who have believed and have been given eternal life will never (cannot) perish. That is eternal security.

I would be happy to examine any verse that teaches that one loses salvation/eternal life if one ceases to believe.

However, if there are any such verses, the Bible is contradicted. And therefore, not to be believed.

Truth never contradicts itself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you think Simon was noted as believed and even baptized, then Paul
spoke of him later as filled...bitterness...actually -means wormwood?

So? Where in Acts 8 or anywhere else in Scripture is Simon described as unsaved?

Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Acts 8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

Acts 8:11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Acts 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.

Acts 8:24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Didn't see any verse that described Simon as unsaved.

Apparently you were not convinced of these biblical facts:
This is what I find convincing from Scripture:
1. Eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23.
2. God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.
3. Eternal life is received when one believes, from John 5:24.
4. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish, from John 10:28.
5. Peter wrote that believers are born again with imperishable seed, from 1 Pet 1:23.

Well, I am convinced. These verses are quite plain and straight forward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
" Eternal life is received when one believes, from John 5:24."

Paul did not seem to think that.

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

If Paul was that confused, then his writings directly contradict what Jesus said. A theory I completely reject.

Paul was extremely clear about eternal security. After listing 3 gifts that come from God in Romans:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23,

he then stated that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29. Since eternal life was specifically described as a gift of God in 6:23, there is no way to understand that eternal life can be revoked, lost, taken away, or any other way to communicate that one who has received this gift could ever end up in the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Why should anyone assume "castaway" means unsaved??

 

[Butch5]

Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.

I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.

While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19

John is addressing Gnostic teachers in 1 John. He's not talking about Christians who turned away but rather teachers of false doctrine who were not Christians to begin with.

 

[Butch5]

I am already living my eternal life.

So, is it safe to assume you will never die? According to Scripture the resurrection doesn't take place until Jesus returns.