Eternal Security and Apostasy

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23 begins not with its own statement, but a link up with the previous verse. That verse shows not now, but the end everlasting life.

We have to finish the course, keep the faith to inherit eternal life.

Where is the verse that says so? It isn't found in the verses that are quoted here.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. ////he gift of God [is] eternal life
bring forth fruits now// the end everlasting life

The Greek word is translated "irrevocable" by those who actually know the Greek. They didn't make up the word. iow, to be "without repentance" means "irrevocable".

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

-------------------
These show that to be a sheep, you have to a believer/follower of Him and then
after you die in this life -you will never perish.

Previous in ch 10 of John Jesus tells us how one is saved (receives eternal life) in v.9. By 'entering through the gate', a figure of speech for believing in Jesus Christ.

It's those (believers) who are given eternal life. And all who are given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. So says Jesus. I believe what He says.

You must remain a believer until you die to gain eternal life and never perish.

Where is this taught in Scripture? I have yet to find any verse.

 

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Yet, the Bible very clearly teaches eternal security.


Yet, there are no verses that clearly teach that.


So, basically then, we maintain our salvation by our continued belief. That makes one their own savior.

These are biblical facts regarding eternal security:
1. Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24.
2. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.
3. Paul taught that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
4. Paul taught that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
5. Peter taught that believers have been born again with imperishable seed in 1 Pet 1:23.

The only conclusion is that those who have believed and have been given eternal life will never (cannot) perish. That is eternal security.

I would be happy to examine any verse that teaches that one loses salvation/eternal life if one ceases to believe.

However, if there are any such verses, the Bible is contradicted. And therefore, not to be believed.

Truth never contradicts itself.

A verse showing that in Peters time some people who had been saved by the knowledge of Jesus Christ had fallen away from the trueth and where now unsaved..

2 Peter 2: KJV
18 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. {19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. {20} For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

So here we Peter saying It is Happened unto them He is talking about real people who had formerly escaped by the Knowledge of the LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ.. But have after become Overcome.. So there was no Eternal security for these individuals..

Also believing Jesus is not a works.. A work takes effort.. It takes no effort to believe water is wet.. Also if one believes Jesus it takes no effort one either believes Jesus or they don't.. The Actual thing that saves is the Work of Jesus on the Cross.. His atonement sacrifice.. So Jesus saves us 100% we do not save ourselves at all.. It is a pure gift from God that we must accept to have..

Jesus said those that believe have eternal life.. And they do.. But those who disbelieve are condemned already.. So if a person believes they are in a state of salvation but if they come to reject their former belief and come to disbelief then they are in a state of condemnation..

 

[FreeGrace2]

A verse showing that in Peters time some people who had been saved by the knowledge of Jesus Christ had fallen away from the trueth and where now unsaved..

2 Peter 2: KJV
18 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. {19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. {20} For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

There is no reason to assume that "latter end is worse with them than the beginning" means going to hell or loss of salvation. Peter's point is that for those believers who get "entangled in the pollutions of the world" will be worse off as a result. iow, in the beginning, meaning when they believed and were saved, they were under God's grace and blessings. But, those who get entangled again will lose God's blessings and be under God's mighty hand of discipline, which will be much worse than then they first believed.

What the passage does not say is that those who do entangle themselves again in the pollutions of the world will lose salvation.

So here we Peter saying It is Happened unto them He is talking about real people who had formerly escaped by the Knowledge of the LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ.. But have after become Overcome.. So there was no Eternal security for these individuals..

It is an incorrect assumption that eternal security is even being referred to.

Also believing Jesus is not a works.. A work takes effort.. It takes no effort to believe water is wet.. Also if one believes Jesus it takes no effort one either believes Jesus or they don't..

I'm in total agreement with this.

The Actual thing that saves is the Work of Jesus on the Cross.. His atonement sacrifice.. So Jesus saves us 100% we do not save ourselves at all.. It is a pure gift from God that we must accept to have..

Amen. And that SAME GRACE that saves is the SAME GRACE that keeps us secure in Christ.

Jesus said those that believe have eternal life.. And they do..

He said more than that. In John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. How is that not eternal security?

But those who disbelieve are condemned already.. So if a person believes they are in a state of salvation but if they come to reject their former belief and come to disbelief then they are in a state of condemnation..

This directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 10:28. One must disbelieve what Jesus said in John 10:28 in order to believe what you've posted here.

Not only does 2 Pet 2:18-22 not refer to loss of salvation via lifestyle, but 1 Thess 5:4-10 DOES teach eternal security in spite of lifestyle.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

If my analysis of the passage is incorrect, please address what is incorrect (specifically) and correct it.

Thanks.

The usual (and superficial) response is that the terms "awake" and "asleep" are euphemisms for being physically alive or dead. But the passage clearly equates those terms with LIFESTYLE, not physical life or death.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul did not contradict himself, and neither did Peter in 2 Peter 3:17 as showing that we can fall from our own steadfastness.

Falling from our own steadfastness does not mean loss of salvation. It means we can cease being steadfast.

Only if one thinks that our salvation is maintained by our own steadfastness would one think this verse teaches loss of salvation via ceasing steadfastness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 12:25, Luke 18:30 and Mark 10:30 all show that it is after this life that
believers inherit -gain eternal life.

So then, apparently you've never read what Jesus said in John 5:24 -
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

The word "has" is a present tense verb. Jesus was clearly making the point that one HAS eternal life when they believe, not some future time, as your view seems to be.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 10:35-36 tells us to cast now away your confidence...that after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

The promise in Hebrews is equated with the promised land in the OT. The promised land wasn't heaven, or any such equivalent, but rewards for effort. The Jews were given the land, but they had to conquer the residents first. Only when they conquered the land did they get 'rest' and actually possess the land.

 

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There is no reason to assume that "latter end is worse with them than the beginning" means going to hell or loss of salvation. Peter's point is that for those believers who get "entangled in the pollutions of the world" will be worse off as a result. iow, in the beginning, meaning when they believed and were saved, they were under God's grace and blessings. But, those who get entangled again will lose God's blessings and be under God's mighty hand of discipline, which will be much worse than then they first believed.

What the passage does not say is that those who do entangle themselves again in the pollutions of the world will lose salvation.


It is an incorrect assumption that eternal security is even being referred to.


I'm in total agreement with this.


Amen. And that SAME GRACE that saves is the SAME GRACE that keeps us secure in Christ.


He said more than that. In John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. How is that not eternal security?


This directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 10:28. One must disbelieve what Jesus said in John 10:28 in order to believe what you've posted here.

Not only does 2 Pet 2:18-22 not refer to loss of salvation via lifestyle, but 1 Thess 5:4-10 DOES teach eternal security in spite of lifestyle.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

If my analysis of the passage is incorrect, please address what is incorrect (specifically) and correct it.

Thanks.

The usual (and superficial) response is that the terms "awake" and "asleep" are euphemisms for being physically alive or dead. But the passage clearly equates those terms with LIFESTYLE, not physical life or death.

(John 10:27-29) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."

This is Jesus talking from his eternal foreknowing perspective.. When do we recieve eternal life? Upon the day of the resurection when we are transformed into our new bodies that are perfect and have eternal life not before.. And the scriptures are correct No 3rd party ( and no man is able to pluck them) can remove one from salvation.. But the saved person can remove himself from salvation by ceasing to believe and trust in Jesus.. A person can cast away their own salvation by coming to disbelief..

 

[FreeGrace2]

(John 10:27-29) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."

This is Jesus talking from his eternal foreknowing perspective.. When do we recieve eternal life?

One HAS eternal life when they believe. So says Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Eternal life is given to those who believe. Not at the end of their lives.

Upon the day of the resurection when we are transformed into our new bodies that are perfect and have eternal life not before..

You've confused having eternal life with entering eternity. We don't enter eternity until our physical lives are over.

And the scriptures are correct No 3rd party ( and no man is able to pluck them) can remove one from salvation.. But the saved person can remove himself from salvation by ceasing to believe and trust in Jesus..

Several problems with this notion.

First, Scripture says "no one". Meaning no person. It does not mean "no 3rd party". Believers are persons. So even the believer him/herself cannot remove themselves from salvation.

Second, and there are no verses that even hint at that idea.

A person can cast away their own salvation by coming to disbelief..

I believe what the Bible says. What verse says that one can "cast away their own salvation"?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24."

believeth - not one time long ago believed, then quit

Jesus also said those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Colossians 1:21 "And some of you were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by
wicked works, yet now He hath reconciled."
reconciled means what? saved

Look at verse 23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled..."

Please look at v.22, which is the immediate context for the conditional sentence in v.23 -
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Note that v.21 ends with a period. So v.22 and v.23 go together. v.22 and v.23a are ONE sentence.

So, what does "if you continue in the faith" result in? v.22 answers that: "to present you (the believer) holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation-"

iow, unless the believer continues in the faith, God will not and cannot "present them holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation".

What is equally clear is that there is no mention of eternal life or loss thereof in Col 1:21-23.

This sure seems like you/a Christian that loses their faith will also lose their reconciliation.

Properly understanding that v.22 forms the result of the condition in v.23a avoids that bit of error.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"So then, apparently you've never read what Jesus said in John 5:24 -
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.""

vinsight4u said: ↑
believeth - not one time long ago believed, then quit

"believes" believeth - a continuing action - long ago is when maybe they believed for the first time----but they still believe

Here's the point from John 5:24; one HAS eternal life when one believes (initial faith in Christ). That's WHEN they receive it.

Now consider this promise from Jesus Himself in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Even though he was before the time of the Christians per se, do you think Judas was ever
a believer in Jesus Christ? Jesus said - he was lost. the son of perdition[/QUOTE]
No, there is no evidence that he ever believed. In fact, Jesus said this about him in John 6 - 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

From v.64, Jesus equates those who didn't believe with Judas who would betray Him. And He was clear about Judas in v.70.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "....except there come a falling away first..."

1 Timothy 4:1
"...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith..."

1 Timothy 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house,
he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

These verses seem interesting. What do you think they show?

They show that some will cease to believe. Which is what Jesus taught in the parable of the soils regarding the 2nd soil: Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

People have to make a lot of assumptions to think that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved. The Bible just NEVER says such a thing.

1 Timothy 5:11 "But the younger widows refuse...they will marry: v12 Having damnation, be-
cause they cast off their first faith."

Titus 1:16 "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him,...unto every good
work reprobate."

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in
departing from the living God. v13 ...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."
Why? ///next verse tells us
"For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast
unto the end"

None of these verses are about loss of salvation, even though they are used as proof texts for it.

Believers can leave the faith.

Believers CAN have "an evil heart of unbelief" whenever they sin, or live life on their own terms.

To be a "partaker of Christ" refers to fellowship with Him, and sharing His life through the filling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[DingDing]

It is applicable to Hebrew folk of that day who looked into salvation by Grace through Faith, then rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah as a people group. That is the spot-on interpretation and application of the passage. The Book of Hebrews, although quite informative for we Christians, is directed to the Jews of that day, not to individual Christians today.

Wow! Talk about cherry-picking passages. So, in other words, one can arrive at the OSAS position only by discounting or redirecting lots of passages.