Which is irrelevant to how to never perish. The key is to receive eternal life.
The point is
WHO receives eternal life and
WHY and in the context of John 10:27,28. The WHO iis Christ's sheep that make up the sheep in v28. And the reason WHY is they conditionally maintain a faithful present tense hearing and following of Christ.
Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to be of the sheep of v28 without hearing and following CHrist and you have yet to prove otherwise or give a single example of anyone being a sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to hear and follow Christ. Your OSAS argument rests on the impossible.
FreeGrace2 said:
If one had to present tense hear and follow, then Jesus would have said so IN v.28.
He did say so in verse 27 and both verse 27 and 28 are one continuous, connected thought.
So you are still faced with the impossible task of finding a way to get one to be os the sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to continuously hear and follow Christ.
FreeGrace2 said:
The "them" in v.28 are His sheep, plain and simple. And we know how one becomes one of His sheep from v.9: entering through Him as the gate. This is a metaphor for believing in Him.
SUre, the"them" in v28 refer to Christ's sheep. BUt what you are avoiding is WHO make up Christ's sheep. Those who are Christ sheep are the ones that faithfully maintain a present tense hearing and following. Therefore the sheep of v28 that shall never perish are the one's who maintain a faithful hearing and following of Christ.
Will you argue one can be a sheep of Christ WITHOUT ever having to hear and follow Christ? That is an impossibility.
Will you argue one that does hear and follow Christ but later quits will still be of the sheep of v28? That is also an impossibility.
FreeGrace2 said:
Further, your obsession with abusing the present tense is refuted in Eph 1:13 where Paul says, "having believed" (aorist tense), the believer IS sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption.
All who have received eternal life will never perish. All who have been sealed are guaranteed for the day of redemption. The Bible agrees with itself.
The aorist tense does not change the present tense of John 10:27. Therefpore a present tense hearing and following is required if one desires to be of the sheep of v28 and the aorist tense in other verses do not change this fact.
I showed in my past post that the constative aorist is an action that is sustained. Meaning one cannot drink of the spirit for just a moment then quit and never thirst again. The drinking is a one time process that lasts till one dies.
The aorist tense used in one verse does not change nor allow you to find a way to get around the present tense in other verses.
FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing in the Bible that says this. Your opinion is not found in Scripture.
John 10:27 requires one to have a present tense hearing and following of Christ to be of HIS (possessive pronoun) sheep. Since the sheep of v28 are Christ's sheep, then logically the sheep of v28 are the ones that have a faithful hearing and following of Christ.
Yet you are striving to find a way to get one to be of the sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to CONDITIONALLY have a present tense hearing and following of Christ...which is a biblical impossibility....and your aorist tense argument is just deflection from this and does not help your argument at all.
FreeGrace2 said:
I fully agree. To be saved, one MUST have heard the gospel, then understood the gospel, and then BELIEVED the gospel in order to be saved.
John 5:24 - From this verse can one QUIT hearing and believing and still have everlasting life or must one's hearing and following be sustained until death? Obviously the present tense shows the hearing and believing must faithfully be sustained unto death (Revelation 2:10)
Freegrace2 said:
But following Christ is a command for believers only. It will never save any unbeliever.
Luke 18:22 Christ commands a lost sinner to "follow Me".
FreeGrace2 said:
Only believers receive eternal life. Here's the proof for that:
Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Now, as to "why" they receive it: it pleases God to save those who believe:
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21
And the verb 'believe' in 1 Cor 1:21 is present tense showing that a persons' belief must be sustained unto death for it one quits believing he will become lost.
FreeGrace2 said:
So, it seems you think the Bible teaches one to be their own savior, huh.
I never said man can be his own saviour, that is a straw man. What I have said is man cannot save himself by himself. Yet the bible teaches man can save himself by obeying Christ (Hebrews 5:9) and in that sense men can "save yourselves".
Acts 2:40 Save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
2 Cor 7:1 cleanse ourselves
James 4:8 cleanse your hands, purify your hearts
2 Tim 2:21 man therefore purge himself
1 Pet 1:22 see ye have purified your souls
These verses do prove that man has role in his own salvation and must continue to fulfill that role unto death if he desires to be saved.
FreeGrace2 said:
I've never argued otherwise. But what would make one assume that "falling" means losing salvation?
I said this:
"Speaking of 1 Pet 1, let's consider v23 - " For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
So, please explain how one born of imperishable seed could ever perish."
2 Pet 1:9-10 "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
Obviously falling here had to do with falling from salvation fall from the elect.
Peter said "lacketh these things", Can these CHRISTIANS Peter was writing to reach a point in their life where they LACK faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity and STILL BE SAVED ANYWAY? Not possible for if the Christian is not diligent and loses these things he will fall from salvation. Again, these are Christians Peter is telling these things to not "fake believers" for fake believers are always fallen therefore cannot fall for lacking what they never had.
FreeGrace2 said:
Are you kidding?? No, the verse is about our NEW NATURE (2 Cor 5:17). The verse says clearly that we "have been BORN AGAIN". By imperishable seed. Therefore, just as our physical seed is corruptible and will perish, our new nature cannot perish.
The verse isn't about God's word never perishing, but the FACT that our new natures will never perish.
I'm always amazed at how far out one who believes in loss of salvation will go to misread verses in order to miss what is plainly being said.[/quote]
You cited 1 Peter `1:23. the "incorruptible seed" is the word of God (Luke 8:11).
The Holy Spirit is the author f the word of God, this incorruptible seed and this seed/word of God has a role in man's salvation by instructing man on how to be saved...."
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth..." verse 22. "The truth" here is the incorruptible seed that one obeys thereby purifying his soul?be born again.
So 1 Peter 1:22-23 is about man being born again and the role man has in this new birth in purifying his soul and the role God's word (the truth) also has in man's new birth. The verse is not even remotely about OSAS. If you can read OSAS into this passage, then there is nothing to stop
anyone from reading
anything they so choose into
any passage they so choose.
FreeGrace2 said:
Abusing the present tense doesn't help your view. The aorist tense is used frequently as well. If continuous belief was NECESSARY to stay saved, then the Bible would NEVER have used the aorist. But it does.
You've shown no such thing. Just your opinion. And Scripture had to be misread in order to come to your conclusion.
Notice how you ignored what I proved about the present and aorist tense.
Please go back to John 4 where Jesus used the verb "to drink" the water He gives in the aorist tense. iow, just ONE drink and one will NEVER thirst again.
The issue here is your IGNORING and AVOIDING the present tense for it kills OSAS. So you think the aorist tense in John 4 somehow changes or gets rid of the present tense found in other verses when it does not.
I demonstrated in my earlier post how the verb 'drinketh' in John 4:14 is a constative aorist that shows an action that is SUSTAINED. Therefore the drinking MUST be sustained if one is to never thirst again. The drinking cannot be for just a moment. The drinking cannot be sporadic. It must be sustained else one will thirst again. Note how "drink" in John 7:37 is present tense.
John 4:14 and John 7:37 do not contradict each other with Jn 4 saying one can quit drinking yet still never thirst and Jn 7 showing one must continue to drink to never thirst.
FreeGrace2 said:
Nonsense. Why do you keep ignoring the aorist tense in these verses?
John 4 "drink"
Luke 8:12 "lest they believe and be saved"
Acts 16:31 "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"
Rom 10:9 "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
I have dealt with you fault "aorist argument" head on and shown it to be faulty.
FreeGrace2 said:
I'm happy to tell you that those who believe will never perish.
John 3:16 the present tense of the verb "believeth" and the subjunctive mood of "should not perish" proves that perishing or not perish is CONDITIONAL upon one faithfully maintaining that present tense belief.
FreeGrace2 said:
So tell me, why did Paul use the aorist tense in Acts 16:31, if one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved?
So the jailer can believe for just a second, then quit and still be saved? Not biblically possible at all and why your "aorist argument" fails miserably.
If one can be saved without believing then he can be saved without grace. Romans 5:2 faith is what gives access to grace. Without faith there is no grace so how are you going to get one who quits believing access to God's grace while remaining faithless?
Furthermore, the verb "shalt be saved" in Acts 16:31 is future tense so he would not have salvation at that moment by just a momentary belief. Evidently the belief must be sustained (constative aorist) for him to have that future salvation. In verse 30, the jailer asks "
what must I do (present tense) to be saved" hence the believing is an ongoing sustained doing.
Luke 16:31 does not contradict John 3:16 that requires a continual present tense belief in order to not perish. Jn 3:16 has one perishing if he does not continue to believe per the subjunctive mood. Why wasn't the aorist used in Jn 3:16 instead of the present tense? Do the present tense verses contradict the aorist verses? God's word is flawed and full of contradictions?
In Luke 16:34 the participle phrase "having believed" included his repentance (washing stripes) and being baptized per verse 33. Therefore the "believed" of v31 is not a momentary belief only mental acknowledgment of facts and nothing more. The fact he was told to believe in verse 31 yet
--washed their stripes and was baptized in v33;
--brought them to his house and gave them food, rejoiced and and "believed" (now the verb "believe" is in the perfect tense showing an ongoing action from past to present) in v34;
--and the next day gave a message to Paul in v36
all show that the jailers belief was ongoing, sustained and not momentary and that he did not ever have belief only.
Jn 3:16 NIV "
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Note how the NIV had to butcher Jn 3:16 in changing the subjunctive Mood (should not) to an indicative mood (shall not) creating the impossiblity that if one quits believing he still shall not perish in his unbelief. It had to make changes to the passage to get aound the present tense and subjunctive mood that kill the OSAS argument.
FreeGrace2 said:
Of course not. Because it refutes your claims about the present tense.
And, Jesus refutes your abuse of the present tense. In Luke 8:13 He said the second soil "believed for a while". That is present tense, but they sure didn't "continue to believe" as being claimed about the present tense. And in the previous verse Jesus used the aorist tense for "lest they believe and be saved".
Then you simply do not even grasp the issue at all.
Once again, one is saved by a point in time belief in Christ. Very plainly stated.
And, present tense believing doesn't mean continuous believing.
It seems reading comprehension isn't your forte. v.12 does NOT say the first soil "quit believing" as you claim here. They NEVER believed. And the point is that one is saved from aorist tense believing. Period. Not present tense believing.
Rather, you've already admitted that you're not going to deal with the aorist tense. And it's obvious why. It refutes your false claims about the present tense.
Where would anyone see any "requirement" to be a sheep in v.27? Jesus is simply noting what His sheep do. But the requirement for being saved is found in 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
So, what do you think Jesus meant in 10:9?
Wow. Wrong again. This is what the Bible says about God's faithfulness in 2 Tim 2:
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
There are 2 parts in v.12; enduring (in the faith) or denying Him (which is the opposite of enduring in the faith).
What Jesus will deny us is reigning with Him, obviously. Not loss of salvation.
Now, v.13 makes clear that even when believers are unfaithful (don't endure), God REMAINS FAITHFUL. And Paul even gives the reason why: "for He cannot deny Himself".
Since all "having believed" are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14) the phrase "He cannot deny Himself" obviously refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit in those who have believed.
The phrase "having believed" is aorist tense, the tense that refutes your abuse of the present tense.
This demonstrates a complete failure to grasp the aorist tense.
Wrong. One drink in the past does it. Not continuous drinking as you falsely claim.
That is EXACTLY what Jesus told the woman:
"but whoever drinks (aorist) the water I give them will never thirst (again). Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
The words are clear and the aorist tense means a point in time action. Not continuous action. If continuous action were required, Jesus would never have used the aorist tense. Or maybe you're accusing our Lord of bad grammar. Is that it?
Demonstrating a failure to understand the subjunctive mood. The point is that IF one takes that single aorist tense drink, THEN they will never thirst again.
Yes it does.
The constative aorist shows drinking is not one single momentary act:
(my emp)
The Greek verb for "drinks" is the subjunctive aorist piei. According to Lenski (p. 310), this verb "expresses one act of drinking, which is never repeated." The aorist tense, however, does not demand a single, unrepeated act. As Shank (p. 80) does, we might regard piei here as a constative aorist. Concerning the constative aorist, Wallace (p. 557) writes, "The event might be iterative in nature, or durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. It places the stress on the act of the occurrence, not its nature."
According to the NAU, Jesus said (John 7:37-38), "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" NAU With regard to these verses, Stott (pp. 53-54) writes:
Now the verbs (thirsting, coming, drinking, believing) are all in the present tense. So we are not only to come to Jesus once, in penitence and faith, but also thereafter to keep coming and to keep drinking, because we keep thirsting.
Link: John 4:7-15
There are many verses that use the aorist tense, which you've admitted to not wanting to deal with.
Why did Jesus use the aorist in Luke 8:12?
You've not proved your case.
When the Bible speaks of "unbelief" it always means "never believed". When the Bible refers to a believer who falls from the faith, it uses the word "apostate".[/QUOTE]
The last statement of your that "unbelief" always means 'never believed" was pulled out of thin air. Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:11.
John 1:12 "
But as many as received (aorist) him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe (present) on his name:"
Why wasn't not the aorist tense used in both places if just a single momentary act of belief is all that is needed to receive Christ and be unconditionally saved?
John 3:15 "
That whosoever believeth (present) in him should not perish (aorist), but have eternal life.
Again, why wasn't the aorist used for believeth if one cannot perish once and for all time?
John 5:44 "
How can ye believe (aorist), which receive (present) honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?"
If the aorist believe means one single momentary act, then how can that one momentary act CONTINUE to receive honor of another? If one quits believing then it is impossible to continue to receive the honor of another when that is the very thing he is desiring.