Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

do believe in a literal eternal hell fire?

  • no it just means death

    Votes: 8 27.6%
  • it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire.

    Votes: 5 17.2%
  • it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

    Votes: 16 55.2%

  • Total voters
    29

Der Alte

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.,.. And actually, the sentence is the same---it is eternal life for the saved--it is eternal death to the wicked. Not eternal dying.
The bible doesn't say Satan is eternal. He and his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire and be destroyed. The beast and the false prophet are killed at the 2nd coming of Christ--see post #77
.
Instead of reading your post #77 let's read what the Bible says about the fate of the devil, the beast and the false prophet.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
 
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mmksparbud

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The adjective "aionios"/eternal only occurs once in this verse. This adjective modifies only one noun, i.e. "fire." The verse does not say "eternal vengeance," or "eternal punishment." Is the fire still burning today? Who knows. It was burning in heaven when God cast it down and we didn't see it.

Of course the fire was in heaven--God is fire. And who says it was not seen by man? I think it was seen by everyone around there. No one has seen any fire that's been burning for thousands of years in that area.
When God dispenses judgement--it's not in secret nor invisible.
 
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mmksparbud

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Instead of reading your post #77 let's read what the Bible says about the fate of the devil, the beast and the false prophet.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.


Well, that is your right to ignore what I wrote. If you read it, you'd understand--but if you prefer to retain your false interpretation, OK. I quoted the bible, in it's proper context instead of taking 2 passages about 2 different time frames and putting them into one.
 
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mmksparbud

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What is this supposed to mean? None of the books of the OT were in the garden.

What you have quoted is the opinion of one person. Both Judith and Enoch are quoted in the Jewish Encyclopedia as authoritative to support the belief in hell. 55 Jewish scholars completed and compiled the JE.

Adam and Eve could only go by what God said, not non-existing interpretations. And He said they would die.
 
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mmksparbud

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What is this supposed to mean? None of the books of the OT were in the garden.

What you have quoted is the opinion of one person. Both Judith and Enoch are quoted in the Jewish Encyclopedia as authoritative to support the belief in hell. 55 Jewish scholars completed and compiled the JE.


What you have quoted is the opinion of one person. Both Judith and Enoch are quoted in the Jewish Encyclopedia as authoritative to support the belief in hell. 55 Jewish scholars completed and compiled the JE.

And what I quoted is from a Jewish site also.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I have the view according to the bible---you get yours from the works of men.


You refuse to submit to the view The Lord has established through The Holy Spirit and His Historical Apostolic Church.

Instead, you follow after the opinion of a woman from the 1800's, your emotions and your own opinion.

(I'm not trying to be a jerk, just so you know. Please forgive me if that is the way it comes across.)
 
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Der Alte

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<MS>
You presume to tell me what it says--I resume to tell you what it says--just fair!
If you wish to believe that the King of Babylon wanted to exalt his throne above the stars of God, that he fell from heaven, and that he was called the son of the morning--ok. I do not believe that and will firmly stand by Lucifer, who had been called the hêylêl hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.
That was before he fell after that he was Satan, the accuser. It's a free country---so far--you can believe what you prefer. No, Satan was not a man--He was the covering cherub before he was thrown out of heaven.
I also believe that this obviously is also about Satan--Lucifer--and not the King of Tyrus. I'm sure you believe otherwise. Here again, the King of Tyrus was never in the garden of Eden, nor was he an anointed cherub on the mountain of God.
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee
.<MS>
I don't presume I cite evidence, you give your opinion. There are more than 200 "Figures of speech used in the Bible," see the book by that name written by E.W. Bullinger. One of those is hyperbole. The subject of Isa 14 is clearly identified at the beginning of the chapter. You ignore that identification and take figures of speech out-of-context trying to make them support your assumptions/presuppositions.
.....Even in Ezek, God directs Ezekiel twice to speak to the king of Tyrus. If this is Satan why is Ezekiel speaking to him instead of God. Where is a human prophet going to find Satan so he can talk to him for God?

John Gill Commentary Ezekiel 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth,.... In allusion to the cherubim over the mercy seat, which covered it with their wings; and which, as the ark of the testimony and all the vessels of the tabernacle were anointed, were so likewise; in all probability the king of Tyre is called a "cherub" because of his wisdom and power; "anointed", because of his royal dignity; and "that covereth", because of his office, which was to protect his people; all which he either was, or ought to be, or was in his own opinion so: antichrist makes great boasts of his wisdom, power, and authority, as a teacher, pastor, or bishop, the cherubim being symbolical of the ministers of the word; and of his being anointed by men, that he may be the cover and shield of the church; and of his being the Lord's anointed, and the vicar of Christ, and head and protector of the church, as he calls himself (s). The Targum understands all this of regal power, and renders it,
"thou art a king anointed for a kingdom:''
and I have set thee so; from whom all kings have their sceptres, crowns, and kingdoms; and by whom they reign; and who can put them down as well as set them up at his pleasure. It may be rendered, "I have given thee" (t); or suffered thee to be so, as the word "give" is often used; it is by divine permission that antichrist has taken such power to himself, and in judgment to them over whom he rules, who are given up to believe a lie; yea, God "put", or, as it is in the original text, "gave" it into the hearts of the kings to agree and give their kingdom to the beast, Rev_17:17,
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; not on Sinai, nor on Zion; on neither of which was the king of Tyre; nor was this literally true of him; for to say, as Kimchi does to illustrate it, that Hiram king of Tyre assisted Solomon with materials to build the temple, is very foreign; but this is true of the antitype of the king of Tyre, antichrist; who has set his foot on God's holy mountain the church; here he first appeared and stood, as before observed on the preceding verse:
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire; which some understand of the precious stones with which the king of Tyre was adorned, which glittered like fire; though rather they design the people of God, those living lively stones of which the spiritual house is built; who, for their clear light, and burning zeal and love, may be said to be as stones of fire; and among these the bishop of Rome, or the antichristian king of Tyre, first walked: so Kimchi interprets them of the Israelites, who were a holy people; and Jarchi of the kings of Israel, who were as the ministering angels; the seraphim perhaps he means, so called from their burning and flaming love. The Targum is,
"and over the holy people thou hast thought to rule.''
(s) Vid. Gurtler. Voc. Typic. Prophet. Explicat. p. 238. (t) נתתיך "et dedi te", Montanus.
 
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mmksparbud

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You refuse to submit to the view The Lord has established through The Holy Spirit and His Historical Church.

Instead, you follow after the opinion of a woman from the 1800's, your emotions and your own opinion.

(I'm not trying to be a jerk, just so you know. Please forgive me if that is the way it comes across.)

I refuse to submit to anyone else besides God and what His Holy Word says and His Holy Spirit has confirmed. You follow after the opinions of some men, I follow the word of God not the "historical" traditions of men.
No offense taken, I hope you feel the same way.
 
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mmksparbud

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<MS>
You presume to tell me what it says--I resume to tell you what it says--just fair!
If you wish to believe that the King of Babylon wanted to exalt his throne above the stars of God, that he fell from heaven, and that he was called the son of the morning--ok. I do not believe that and will firmly stand by Lucifer, who had been called the hêylêl hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.
That was before he fell after that he was Satan, the accuser. It's a free country---so far--you can believe what you prefer. No, Satan was not a man--He was the covering cherub before he was thrown out of heaven.
I also believe that this obviously is also about Satan--Lucifer--and not the King of Tyrus. I'm sure you believe otherwise. Here again, the King of Tyrus was never in the garden of Eden, nor was he an anointed cherub on the mountain of God.
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee
.<MS>
I don't presume I cite evidence, you give your opinion. There are more than 200 "Figures of speech used in the Bible," see the book by that name written by E.W. Bullinger. One of those is hyperbole. The subject of Isa 14 is clearly identified at the beginning of the chapter. You ignore that identification and take figures of speech out-of-context trying to make them support your assumptions/presuppositions.
.....Even in Ezek, God directs Ezekiel twice to speak to the king of Tyrus. If this is Satan why is Ezekiel speaking to him instead of God. Where is a human prophet going to find Satan so he can talk to him for God?

John Gill Commentary Ezekiel 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth,.... In allusion to the cherubim over the mercy seat, which covered it with their wings; and which, as the ark of the testimony and all the vessels of the tabernacle were anointed, were so likewise; in all probability the king of Tyre is called a "cherub" because of his wisdom and power; "anointed", because of his royal dignity; and "that covereth", because of his office, which was to protect his people; all which he either was, or ought to be, or was in his own opinion so: antichrist makes great boasts of his wisdom, power, and authority, as a teacher, pastor, or bishop, the cherubim being symbolical of the ministers of the word; and of his being anointed by men, that he may be the cover and shield of the church; and of his being the Lord's anointed, and the vicar of Christ, and head and protector of the church, as he calls himself (s). The Targum understands all this of regal power, and renders it,
"thou art a king anointed for a kingdom:''
and I have set thee so; from whom all kings have their sceptres, crowns, and kingdoms; and by whom they reign; and who can put them down as well as set them up at his pleasure. It may be rendered, "I have given thee" (t); or suffered thee to be so, as the word "give" is often used; it is by divine permission that antichrist has taken such power to himself, and in judgment to them over whom he rules, who are given up to believe a lie; yea, God "put", or, as it is in the original text, "gave" it into the hearts of the kings to agree and give their kingdom to the beast, Rev_17:17,
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; not on Sinai, nor on Zion; on neither of which was the king of Tyre; nor was this literally true of him; for to say, as Kimchi does to illustrate it, that Hiram king of Tyre assisted Solomon with materials to build the temple, is very foreign; but this is true of the antitype of the king of Tyre, antichrist; who has set his foot on God's holy mountain the church; here he first appeared and stood, as before observed on the preceding verse:
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire; which some understand of the precious stones with which the king of Tyre was adorned, which glittered like fire; though rather they design the people of God, those living lively stones of which the spiritual house is built; who, for their clear light, and burning zeal and love, may be said to be as stones of fire; and among these the bishop of Rome, or the antichristian king of Tyre, first walked: so Kimchi interprets them of the Israelites, who were a holy people; and Jarchi of the kings of Israel, who were as the ministering angels; the seraphim perhaps he means, so called from their burning and flaming love. The Targum is,
"and over the holy people thou hast thought to rule.''
(s) Vid. Gurtler. Voc. Typic. Prophet. Explicat. p. 238. (t) נתתיך "et dedi te", Montanus.

No, your evidence consists of the opinions of man. I read what the bible says.
 
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Der Alte

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And what I quoted is from a Jewish site also.
The source you quoted is one guy, who provided no evidence. The Jewish Encyclopedia had 55 contributing scholars each of which quoted several sources.
The anointed Cherub that covereth" is absolutely 100% referring to Satan in those passages. No doubt about it.
Unsupported opinion. The king of Tyrus was identified twice as the subject of Ezek. 28. What was the "covering cherub?" The two gold cherubs on the cover of the ark. One must learn to recognize figures of speech such as hyperbole. Pagan kings liked to consider themselves gods.

Ezek 28:2 ...Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said: I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the heart of the seas; yet thou art man, and not God, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God -
The king of Tyrus does not suddenly become Satan in later verses.
 
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Der Alte

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No, your evidence consists of the opinions of man. I read what the bible says.
Who made you the end all be all authority on the Bible? You read what your teachers and preachers have told you the Bible says.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I refuse to submit to anyone else besides God and what His Holy Word says and His Holy Spirit has confirmed. You follow after the opinions of some men, I follow the word of God not the "historical" traditions of men.


giphy.gif



Obey Your Leaders And SUBMIT To Them, For They Are Keeping Watch Over Your Souls, As Those Who Will Have To Give An Account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
• Hebrews 13:17
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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The source you quoted is one guy, who provided no evidence. The Jewish Encyclopedia had 55 contributing scholars each of which quoted several sources.

Unsupported opinion. The king of Tyrus was identified twice as the subject of Ezek. 28. What was the "covering cherub?" The two gold cherubs on the cover of the ark. One must learn to recognize figures of speech such as hyperbole. Pagan kings liked to consider themselves gods.

Ezek 28:2 ...Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said: I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the heart of the seas; yet thou art man, and not God, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God -
The king of Tyrus does not suddenly become Satan in later verses.


"Cherubs" are not human beings.

Human beings were not "cast as profane out of the mountain of God":
 
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Der Alte

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Adam and Eve could only go by what God said, not non-existing interpretations. And He said they would die.
What is your point? You blew off the so-called Enoch and Judith because they were not in the garden and I said neither were the "canonized" books.
 
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mmksparbud

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The source you quoted is one guy, who provided no evidence. The Jewish Encyclopedia had 55 contributing scholars each of which quoted several sources.

Unsupported opinion. The king of Tyrus was identified twice as the subject of Ezek. 28. What was the "covering cherub?" The two gold cherubs on the cover of the ark. One must learn to recognize figures of speech such as hyperbole. Pagan kings liked to consider themselves gods.

Ezek 28:2 ...Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said: I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the heart of the seas; yet thou art man, and not God, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God -
The king of Tyrus does not suddenly become Satan in later verses.

You are free to believe whatever erroneous believes you so desire. The covering cherubs on the earthly ark are representations of the real ones in the heavenly sanctuary. And Gabriel is one.
Luk_1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
 
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mmksparbud

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Who made you the end all be all authority on the Bible? You read what your teachers and preachers have told you the Bible says.

And who made you such? I'm 68, I can read very well on my own---have for years. You obviously believe what you were told to believe. I believe what the bible says.
What is your point? You blew off the so-called Enoch and Judith because they were not in the garden and I said neither were the "canonized" books.


I already said what my point was---Adam and Eve only had the word of God and He said they would die. You are the one that brought up Enoch and Judith and the Jews believing in everlasting hell---God did not tell Adam and Eve they would burn forever but that they would die.
 
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mmksparbud

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giphy.gif



Obey Your Leaders And SUBMIT To Them, For They Are Keeping Watch Over Your Souls, As Those Who Will Have To Give An Account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
• Hebrews 13:17


I submit only as God says---"In the Lord." If they contradict the word of God---I absolutely will not submit.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I submit only as God says---"In the Lord." If they contradict the word of God---I absolutely will not submit.

I just quoted "The Word Of God" to you that Literally says to submit to your leaders and obey them.
 
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"Cherubs" are not human beings.
Human beings were not "cast as profane out of the mountain of God"
:
Exodus 25:20
"The cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering the mercy seat with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the cherubim are to be turned toward the mercy seat.
This is what the covering cherubim were. The holy mountain of God was/is mount Zion where the city of Jerusalem sits.
I have been doing this since Johnson was president. I doubt that anyone is going to catch me in any significant error.
 
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