Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

do believe in a literal eternal hell fire?

  • no it just means death

    Votes: 8 27.6%
  • it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire.

    Votes: 5 17.2%
  • it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

    Votes: 16 55.2%

  • Total voters
    29

mmksparbud

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We don't know what all they talked about. I don't see where God warned them that they would have to leave paradise if they ate from the tree. He also later added thorns, weeds, and trouble bearing children as to pain.


Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It is the death that was the biggest thing--if it had been eternally burning hell, He would have said so.
 
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Der Alte

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Good grief! Talk about not what the scripture is saying at all!!
Isaiah 14:9-14
Hell is moved to meet the at they coming---God will raise the wicked dead after the 1000 years to meet their judgement.
Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
And they will be asking Lucifer the question "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"
Good grief indeed. One can make scripture say almost anything they want it to by selectively quoting random verses out-of-context. Isa 14 says nothing about resurrection. The subject of Isa 14 is the king of Babylon dying not Lucifer! The inhabitants of sheol are talking to the king not Satan. I countered all of your objections in my post. I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond.
This says not one word about eternal burning hell or immortality of the soul. Immortal souls is never mentioned in the bible.
Just ignore what I post and throw out the same old tired objections. All three passages describe unrighteous dead people in sheol/hades being consciously aware speaking, moving etc. Something has to be living for that to happen.
Ezekiel 32 is called a Lament over Pharaoh and Egypt---says not one word about everlasting burring hell or immortal souls.
Same objection as above. The lament describes Pharaoh dying and speaking and being spoken to, and having emotions in sheol.

<MS>Lazarus is a parable--and the point that Jesus makes is clear---
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
There is no communicating between the dead and the living, or between the wicked dead and the saved dead--a gulf fixed. If you want to believe the good go to the bossom of Abraham, go ahead--that is one big bossom. A wet fingertip in that kind of burning torment would do nothing! It would burn up before the tongue could be reached!!
<MS>
The old "It's a parable" dodge. It does not have any of the elements of a parable. It was not introduced as parable by either Jesus or Luke.
Jesus did not explain it later to his disciples.
Legitimate parables use some actual situation in this world as a analogy of the kingdom of heaven. Not legends, fables etc.
All the legitimate parables use events which could happen in this world. Sometime in history a shepherd lost his sheep, a widow lost some money, a son squandered his father's money etc. What is the real world situation in Lazarus/the rich man which is an analogy for the kingdom of heaven? The only real world situation is Lazarus was a beggar and the rich man lived in luxury.
What is the real life situation and what is the kingdom of heaven analogy. I don't see any.
.....All legitimate parables use anonymous persons, a certain landowner, a certain widow etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man two of the subjects are named Lazarus and Abraham.
Abraham was an actual, historical person. If he was not in the place Jesus named and did not say the words Jesus spoke then Jesus is a liar..
About the rich man asking for Lazarus to dip his finger in water etc. Of course a tiny drop of water would not do anything for the rich man's thirst. But are we going to demand that someone being tormented in flames to be rational?
In your opinion is this part an actual real world situation that Jesus is using as an analogy of the kingdom of heaven.
Why would Jesus use fake, phony events that were nor and will not be factual to illustrate the kingdom of heaven?
And finally all the ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual. I wonder how all the native Greek speaking ECF got it wrong but 2000 years +/- later someone who probably could not conjugate or parse a Greek verb somehow gets it right?

• Irenaeus [120-202 AD] Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning. [was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Link: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection.“There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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mmksparbud

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immortal soul
Revelation 5:9 shows that the redeemed out of every kindred are being referred to. It is the time of the Jesus Christ led captivity captive
song time.


The saved get eternal life---name one verse that says the lost also get eternal life?
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The saved are given the gift of eternal life

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
That's eternal punishment, not eternal punishing---the punishment will be eternal, permanent death.

Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh_12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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Der Alte

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Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is the death that was the biggest thing--if it had been eternally burning hell, He would have said so.
Logical fallacy. Argument form silence.
The books of Enoch and Judith, which are in the Hebrew canon of the Bible, speak of a place of fiery punishment of the wicked.
 
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mmksparbud

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Good grief indeed. One can make scripture say almost anything they want it to by selectively quoting random verses out-of-context. Isa 14 says nothing about resurrection. The subject of Isa 14 is the king of Babylon dying not Lucifer! The inhabitants of sheol are talking to the king not Satan. I countered all of your objections in my post. I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

You need to reread the whole passage without your preconceived ideas.

Just ignore what I post and throw out the same old tired objections. All three passages describe unrighteous dead people in sheol/hades being consciously aware speaking, moving etc. Something has to be living for that to happen.

Just read the passages you quote---these say nothing about eternity--these are raised at the judgement day -- don't just read what you want, but the verses before and after.

Jesus was not making a statement about the state of the dead with His parable.

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Though one rose from the dead, not that they do.

You use more words than anyone I know to say so little. Quite a talent, actually.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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That was not Samuel, he was seeing a witch, it was Satan impersonating Samuel.


Nope.

Read It Again. It Says:


Now Samuel Said To Saul, “Why Have You Disturbed Me By Bringing Me Up ?......
• 1 Samuel 28:15


 
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mmksparbud

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Logical fallacy. Argument form silence.
The books of Enoch and Judith, which are in the Hebrew canon of the Bible, speak of a place of fiery punishment of the wicked.

Enoch, Judith, the Hebrew canon (of which Enoch nor Judith is amongst) did not exist in the garden of Eden. Just Adam and Eve, God and Satan--and their angels.


The word “apocrypha” originates from the Greek and Latin words for “secret” or “non-canonical.” It is
commonly used to refer to ancient, mostly Second Temple–era works that are “outside” of the Jewish Bible.1

The Apocrypha includes, but is not limited to, works such as Sirach (Ben Sira), Maccabees, Judith, the book of Enoch, Jubilees, the story of Susanna, and Baruch.
What Is the Jewish Approach to the Apocrypha?
 
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mmksparbud

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Nope.

Read It Again. It Says:


Now Samuel Said To Saul, “Why Have You Disturbed Me By Bringing Me Up ?......
• 1 Samuel 28:15



The apparition Samuel spoke--not the real Samuel.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

So Saul, who was seeing a witch and from whom God departed is going to be with Samuel in heaven? Since when can Satan command anyone who is in the presence of God to appear before anyone?
 
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mmksparbud

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Pick One:

2,000 Years of Church Doctrine and History, Ecumenical Councils, Church Fathers, Unbroken Apostolic Succession

Or

Some Lady's Opinion in the 1800's

What lady's opinion from the 1800 hundreds?-no one has quoted any old woman. personally, I have only quoted the bible. Others have quoted some people, I quoted only the bible--and Chabad.org. Who you going to believe---the bible or what others have to say?
?
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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What lady's opinion from the 1800 hundreds?-no one has quoted any old woman. personally, I have only quoted the bible. Others have quoted some people, I quoted only the bible--and Chabad.org. Who you going to believe---the bible or what others have to say?
?


I'm referring to the doctrines and teachings of Ellen Gould White that influence your doctrinal views.
 
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mmksparbud

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Adam knew that he was created in the image of God. Only the warning was as to punishing his body....to dust he would return. Adam was smart enough to know that he was not totally made of dust.

The NT also shows that it is the body that will be raised as immortal. The vile shall put on immortality. The righteous people will be raised as in incorruption.

Were does it say that God said only your body will return to dust? God said if you eat of the tree you die---period. Adam would die a sinner. The prophecy of Jesus had not been revealed yet. All Adam and Eve knew was that they would cease to exist.
 
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mmksparbud

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I'm referring to the doctrines and teachings of Ellen Gould White that influence your doctrinal views.


Where did I quote her? You are the only one mentioning her,I have quoted the bible and a Jewish site.
 
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mmksparbud

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It is referring to the body that will be either raised as never to die again or to die in the lake of fire. 2nd death -
the souls don't die
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Paul only told of the bodies as being vile.
We have borne the image of the earthy.

Philippians 3:21

I take the word of Jesus over man--
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

As you said---God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Only the saved have eternal life. There is no verse that says the soul does not die.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Where did I quote her? You are the only one mentioning her,I have quoted the bible and a Jewish site.

I know that you haven't mentioned her. I'm just bringing it up because it's the root cause of why you have a heretical view of Hell that strays from the historical Christian view that The Church has always held.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I take the word of Jesus over man--


JESUS SAYS THESE WORDS TO ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS:

Then He Will Also Say To Those On The Left Hand, Depart From Me, You Cursed INTO The EVERLASTING FIRE Prepared For The Devil And His Angels:
Matthew 25:41
 
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mmksparbud

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I know that you haven't mentioned her. I'm just bringing it up because it's the root cause of why you have a heretical view of Hell that strays from the historical Christian view that The Church has always held.

I have the view according to the bible---you get yours from the works of men.
 
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mmksparbud

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JESUS SAYS THESE WORDS TO ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS:

Then He Will Also Say To Those On The Left Hand, Depart From Me, You Cursed INTO The EVERLASTING FIRE Prepared For The Devil And His Angels:
Matthew 25:41


Yes---and? Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? But their punishment is eternal.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
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