Did you even read what I said. If a man can't keep an open heart toward God, then he is in rebellion, which is witchcraft, he is a double minded man, a luke warm man.
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Eteral life is impossible to retract.
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witchcraft? I will ignore that one.
I am double minded sometimes, I rebel sometimes, I am luke warm sometimes. Guess what, so are you. So is everyone. We are all sinners. There is no one righteous on their own merit. Though we are christians, we still sin. RIGHT? I have never met a person that became a christian and no longer struggled with sin. Our righteousness was given to us for the very reason that we were unable to get it ourselves. If we were unable to get it in the first place, then we will be unable to maintain it. We are not our own!! We belong to God, we were bought at a price. The price was the blood of Jesus Christ. We no longer belong to ourselves. By saying we can lose our salvation, I feel that you are making a mockery of Christ's blood!
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Hi, Dave! Your thoughts are mirrored in Hebrews 10: "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
Salvation is by belief, specifically by receiving Jesus. This is a work---but it is not our work, it is the work of God. Clearly says so in Jn6:29. If it is the work of God, it is not our work---cannot be our work---it is His work. Salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus, abiding in Him, walking in Him, crucifying ourselves, our sinful fleshly nature, daily. Salvation is not what we do---it is what He does IN and THROUGH us. Yet His presence there, in the first place, is our choice. In the first place, in the second place, and in the last place...
Daily.
What did you think of my post in this thread, post #135? About two dozen Scripture references. Anything I'm not understanding or that I'm missing?
God bless you guys!!!
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
What did you think of my post in this thread, post #135? About two dozen Scripture references. Anything I'm not understanding or that I'm missing?
God bless you guys!!!
that was a long post Ben, if you want a reply then please post again, and ask specific questions directed to me. maybe I am the only one that is distracted by its length and format. Thanks for your fair reply to my previous post.
side note : I worry WAY more about people who are outside of Christ than people who are in, namely non believers. our passion should be more for the lost than for professing christians.
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I agree with you that we are mandated to witness to the lost... one of our concerns as Christians should certainly be to lead lost souls to Christ.
I know of a person on another messageboard who is a Calvinist Christian. I don't know how long she has been a believer, but for the last 2 years I have seen her on messageboards professing a belief in Christ.
Recently though, has been questioning the authenticity of the Bible and also thinks that Judaism is a false religion..and thinks that Christianity might be bogus. I don't know why she is having doubts, but she point blank said that if she was one of the elect she didn't have to worry because God would call her back. It's people like that who I fear for. I don't think that God is under an obligation to come and get her if she decides to walk away.
Michelle
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The prodigal son might shed some light. Though the son walked away from his father, he was still his son. Though his son sinned against him, he was still his son. And what was the father's responce upon the son's return? It was a celebration. You may say that the sonship was a result of his return. I disagree with that because the sonship was always there, just not the fellowship. Walking away did not take away his sonship, it just hindered that boy's life. If that lady decides to walk away, it does not nullify her from Grace. I know for myself, when I was in sin, I knew the whole time who God was, and that I was doing wrong. But I needed a wake up call, which I got. And I came back stronger than ever.
Let us remember that God is the judge, he is on the throne. We will never know for sure if a person's salvation can be lost. Based on the scripture that we both read, we come to different conclusions. Fine, there is room for that. Let us at least agree that salvation is from Christ alone!
And if it is true that it is of more importance to spread the gospel to non-believers, then where are the debates about that ?
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First off, let me say that my prayers are with her. When God gently calls her back, I pray that she will listen.
Second, the reason that the father was happy when the son came home is because he was lost, but had been found.
Third, we don't have to debate about something we all agree on.
Michelle
Second, the reason that the father was happy when the son came home is because he was lost, but had been found.
Third, we don't have to debate about something we all agree on.
Michelle
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What would you tell a non-believer?
And what would happen if I met the same person, and he/she told me what you taught them, and I don't agree with your teaching.
It becomes a serious situation, becuase of different doctrines about the same Jesus, that's why we are told to speak the same thing, in 1 Cor.1:10.
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Oooooo! Pret-ty! "Dodger blue"! Anybody know where I can get a list of the colors???
Then there is the one who holds to "Eternal Security"---believing that he HAS a choice to come to God, but that God will dynamically interfere to prevent apostasy. He too may not worry about getting drunk or occasionally lying, maybe even a TINY bit of fornication (maybe it's just viewing a few porn sites on the internet)---after all, God WILL keep him saved, won't God? Hey, "He who began a good work in you WILL BRING IT TO COMPLETION!" God's responsibility, not his. Right?
And I suppose one who believes in "predestined-election", will see himself as "CHOSEN"---so then too it is GOD who matures and molds and shapes. There's not really any need to worry about diligence or perseverance, because "WHO CAN RESIST GOD'S WILL???"
And yet...
...if the nature of our salvation is FELLOWSHIP, then diligence and perseverance becomes more than casual, off-stage, in-the-wings-concepts---nay, they become central and critical to our approach. If salvation can be forfeit, then every moment of our ever day becomes colored quite differently, do they not?
I countered two verses offered, first: "nothing can separate us from His love", by demonstrating that He loved us BEFORE we were saved and and He will still love us if we fall away and perish. The second, "no one will SNATCH us from His hand", I cited the Greek that "snatch" is "harpazo", which means "forcibly remove"---which does not refute the premise that salvation can be freely forsaken.
I wish you would page back and read especially the paragraph about Romans 5:17-18 (Starts with, "For if by the transgression of one man..."), and the next paragraph. That Romans passage details the nature of our salvation eloquently---and the next paragraph lists many verses that speak of losing salvation...
Tell me one thing, either Dave, or anyone else who believes in "OSAS"---in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), the parable is obviously about a man's fellowship with his Creator, God. Tell me---do you really believe that Jesus meant to convey that the son was still saved, while he was in the other country, living immorally and loose? Do you know the Greek words for, "alive again"? He was dead---vs 24,32---do you believe Jesus was speaking of one who was dead-but-still-SAVED?
Doesn't "dead", mean dead spiritually? Please look up the Greek for "alive again", and "dead", and tell me if you really think that somehow Jesus intended to tell a story of someone who "squandered his inheritance on wine and women and loose living", but-was-still-saved?
If that son-in-the-parable, had DIED in the far land, what would his eternal destiny have been? Can an immoral man enter Heaven? The earthly father symbolized the Heavenly father. The son's leaving, symbolized leaving God. Loose-living in the parable symbolized loose living. His returning home symbolized returning-to-God. Any argument on this?
"I tell you, there is more joy in HEAVEN over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Lk15:7
Before the prodigal son repented, while he was in the far land, do you say that he was saved? Can one be UNREPENTANT-AND-SAVED?
Luke13:3...
Perhaps; but most of the NT is focused not on salvation, but on growth. As Hebrews 6 says, "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Messiah, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God..." This cuts to the nature of our salvation. One who holds to Carnal Christianity, simply prays "The Sinner's Prayer"---and he believes that his salvation is secure. He can cheerully return home and place God up on a shelf next to the Christmas decorations, and then get about the REAL business of life. If that includes occasionally getting drunk or even sleeping with a couple of girlfriends, what of it? He's still the Father's SON, isn't he? Even if he's not in close FELLOWSHIP with God, he still has SAVED-RELATIONSHIP, just-like-the-Prodigal-son, RIGHT? Every Sunday, well, every Sunday morning, he goes to church and sings and listens to the preacher, and then gives nary-a-thought about God the rest of the week.
Then there is the one who holds to "Eternal Security"---believing that he HAS a choice to come to God, but that God will dynamically interfere to prevent apostasy. He too may not worry about getting drunk or occasionally lying, maybe even a TINY bit of fornication (maybe it's just viewing a few porn sites on the internet)---after all, God WILL keep him saved, won't God? Hey, "He who began a good work in you WILL BRING IT TO COMPLETION!" God's responsibility, not his. Right?
And I suppose one who believes in "predestined-election", will see himself as "CHOSEN"---so then too it is GOD who matures and molds and shapes. There's not really any need to worry about diligence or perseverance, because "WHO CAN RESIST GOD'S WILL???"
And yet...
...if the nature of our salvation is FELLOWSHIP, then diligence and perseverance becomes more than casual, off-stage, in-the-wings-concepts---nay, they become central and critical to our approach. If salvation can be forfeit, then every moment of our ever day becomes colored quite differently, do they not?
Format? Was it somehow formatted illegibly? I don't think re-posting it is necessary---are you game to simply go back a page? First I defined our salvation as not a work by us, but a work by God---salvation is by receiving Christ. I showed that salvation is abiding in Christ---and cited 2Jn1:7-9 which warns us to watch ourselves, about the decievers, for if we go too far and not abide in the teachings of Christ, we HAVE NOT GOD---clear warning against falling-from-salvation.
I countered two verses offered, first: "nothing can separate us from His love", by demonstrating that He loved us BEFORE we were saved and and He will still love us if we fall away and perish. The second, "no one will SNATCH us from His hand", I cited the Greek that "snatch" is "harpazo", which means "forcibly remove"---which does not refute the premise that salvation can be freely forsaken.
I wish you would page back and read especially the paragraph about Romans 5:17-18 (Starts with, "For if by the transgression of one man..."), and the next paragraph. That Romans passage details the nature of our salvation eloquently---and the next paragraph lists many verses that speak of losing salvation...
Tell me one thing, either Dave, or anyone else who believes in "OSAS"---in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), the parable is obviously about a man's fellowship with his Creator, God. Tell me---do you really believe that Jesus meant to convey that the son was still saved, while he was in the other country, living immorally and loose? Do you know the Greek words for, "alive again"? He was dead---vs 24,32---do you believe Jesus was speaking of one who was dead-but-still-SAVED?
Doesn't "dead", mean dead spiritually? Please look up the Greek for "alive again", and "dead", and tell me if you really think that somehow Jesus intended to tell a story of someone who "squandered his inheritance on wine and women and loose living", but-was-still-saved?
If that son-in-the-parable, had DIED in the far land, what would his eternal destiny have been? Can an immoral man enter Heaven? The earthly father symbolized the Heavenly father. The son's leaving, symbolized leaving God. Loose-living in the parable symbolized loose living. His returning home symbolized returning-to-God. Any argument on this?
"I tell you, there is more joy in HEAVEN over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Lk15:7
Before the prodigal son repented, while he was in the far land, do you say that he was saved? Can one be UNREPENTANT-AND-SAVED?
Luke13:3...
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Well it is obvious that you don't understand my post. I talk about matters of the heart, and you say that I'm talking about works.
Keeping an open heart toward God has nothing to do with works.
Keeping an open heart toward God has nothing to do with works.
Keeping an open heart toward God has nothing to do with works.
It's a matter of having a heart open to recieve from God what ever He choses to give or say. If you are double minded in this then I fear for your salvation. But I am pretty confident that you are not double minded concerning your heart toward God. I believe that regardless of your past experiences with salvation, that if you shut up your heart to what God is saying and shut God out then He cannot save you less He trample on your will and force salvation upon you. (This God would never do because then the gift would not be free and it would not be an act of love but rather of dictatorship.) There is no works here. If you see works involved in what I have posted then you are fanticising out of your own fears.
This is a matter of heart not flesh or works.
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I would have to second Ben johnson on that one. What good is salvation if you never develope a relationship with your creator. Thats the whole point of salvation. Salvation is the starting point in your relationship, not the ending point. If you never go beyound salvation then you have failed to run the race and you forfet the prize. You are like a branch that produces no fruit and is fit only for the fire. Sorry, but Jesus said that last one.
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Snup, I agree with you completely---I do not find anything in the Bible that says "God will trample on your will". They ("Predestined-Election" proponents) cite Ezk36, that God "removes their stone-hearts and replaces them with hearts-of-flesh". I counter this by reading the identical passage in Ezk11, where after that passage he writes: "But for those who go after abominations and detestable things, I will bring their conduct down on their heads"---unilateral heart-change from GOD? Hardly. Obviously He changes the hearts of those who turn to Him---and those who prefer abominations and detestable things pay the price.
Yet for all of my words, no refutation is offered to all of the verses I cite to destroy the belief of "OSAS". No matter how many times I, or others of us who believe "OSNAS", state: "It is NOT by works, it is by GRACE, through FAITH"---still is the response, "YOU say it is by WORKS." Believing is a work---John 6 says it is---it is the work of GOD. Work of GOD? Can a work of GOD, ever be OUR WORK? No. We are saved by believing, by receiving Christ, be abiding in Him, by fellowshipping with Him and with God and with the Spirit, indwelt by Christ and the Spirit, by walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh---all of these things are simply facets of the concept of "BORN-AGAIN".
Do we save ourselves? No. And yet I quoted verses that SAY that we save ourselves. These simply exist in THEIR understanding that we are saved by GOD, by His GRACE, through our own FAITH.
If salvation is FELLOWSHIP (and it is---1Jn1:3-6), then KEEPING OURSELVES IN THE LOVE OF GOD (Jn21) is absolutely a choice, daily.
What am I doing wrong in the debates? Why can I not convince them? Or if I am wrong, why can they not convince me? I cite Scripture---if I am wrong, I welcome the instruction---Scripturally. But if the Scriptures we present, cannot be refuted (in their presentation), can "OSAS" belief stand?
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If your not sure how I define relationship then check out this thread.
What's your relationship like?
I'm pretty sure that it will also fit with Ben Johnson's definition of fellowship.
What's your relationship like?
I'm pretty sure that it will also fit with Ben Johnson's definition of fellowship.
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Perhaps; but most of the NT is focused not on salvation, but on growth. As Hebrews 6 says, "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Messiah, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God..." This cuts to the nature of our salvation. One who holds to Carnal Christianity, simply prays "The Sinner's Prayer"---and he believes that his salvation is secure. He can cheerully return home and place God up on a shelf next to the Christmas decorations, and then get about the REAL business of life. If that includes occasionally getting drunk or even sleeping with a couple of girlfriends, what of it? He's still the Father's SON, isn't he? Even if he's not in close FELLOWSHIP with God, he still has SAVED-RELATIONSHIP, just-like-the-Prodigal-son, RIGHT? Every Sunday, well, every Sunday morning, he goes to church and sings and listens to the preacher, and then gives nary-a-thought about God the rest of the week.
...if the nature of our salvation is FELLOWSHIP, then diligence and perseverance becomes more than casual, off-stage, in-the-wings-concepts---nay, they become central and critical to our approach. If salvation can be forfeit, then every moment of our ever day becomes colored quite differently, do they not?
I showed that salvation is abiding in Christ---and cited 2Jn1:7-9 which warns us to watch ourselves, about the decievers, for if we go too far and not abide in the teachings of Christ, we HAVE NOT GOD---clear warning against falling-from-salvation.
I countered two verses offered, first: "nothing can separate us from His love", by demonstrating that He loved us BEFORE we were saved and and He will still love us if we fall away and perish. The second, "no one will SNATCH us from His hand", I cited the Greek that "snatch" is "harpazo", which means "forcibly remove"---which does not refute the premise that salvation can be freely forsaken.
Romans 5:17-18 ...
Tell me---do you really believe that Jesus meant to convey that the son was still saved, while he was in the other country, living immorally and loose? Do you know the Greek words for, "alive again"? He was dead---vs 24,32---do you believe Jesus was speaking of one who was dead-but-still-SAVED?
Doesn't "dead", mean dead spiritually? Please look up the Greek for "alive again", and "dead", and tell me if you really think that somehow Jesus intended to tell a story of someone who "squandered his inheritance on wine and women and loose living", but-was-still-saved?
If that son-in-the-parable, had DIED in the far land, what would his eternal destiny have been? Can an immoral man enter Heaven? The earthly father symbolized the Heavenly father. The son's leaving, symbolized leaving God. Loose-living in the parable symbolized loose living. His returning home symbolized returning-to-God. Any argument on this?
"I tell you, there is more joy in HEAVEN over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Lk15:7
Before the prodigal son repented, while he was in the far land, do you say that he was saved? Can one be UNREPENTANT-AND-SAVED?
Luke13:3...
Ben, forgive me for having a.d.d and for getting distracted by your long posts. I find it odd that you posted long again, oh well. Here goes my long reply.
If you quote scripture, it would help if you kept it separate from other text, gave the exact verse, and if you bold anything, bold the verse so it stands out among what you type. For example. you referrenced a verse from Hebrews. I will take a closer look.
Hebrews 5: 11-14
Warning Against Falling Away
"We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. "
Hebrews 6: 1a
"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death..."
I quoted the verese preceeding 6:1 for context. Paul relates elementry teachings with spiritual immaturity. When Paul says they should not "lay again the foundation of repentace from acts that lead to death" he is saying that these immature christians need to learn the elementary truths of God. These spiritual babies are living lives in sin, much like I did, and the major reason why is because the truth of God is not in them. They are not aquainted with the teachings about righteousness, which is why they do not display righteousness. Once they know these teachings, they will no longer persue evil which leads to death, rather they will persue good.
*I have yet to read a verse that says we can give the gift of salvation back to God.
I do not believe that salvation can be lost. Yet I am diligent and I persevere. I will follow Jesus Christ all of my days. How does this work? Why don't I just sin that grace may abound? Because that is sin, and Paul directly addressed this attitude and lifestyle. I could go ahead and try that. I could sin so that grace may increase. But I don't. I have seen what the world has to offer, and it sucks. I have seen the consequences of such a thing and have concluded that doing things outside of God's will is very bad. I have also realized that God has set before me a mission. I am not willing to miss out on that. I could go off like the prodigal son, but I won't. And what stops me is not the fear of losing my salvation, what stops me is knowing that my corner of ministry is lost, and that my life, and the life of those around me will be lessened. I do not serve God out of fear. I love God because he first loved me. I serve God because he first served me. When I get out of bed, I don't wonder if I will do good enough today to maintain my salvation. Instead I wonder how I might serve God out of a pure heart that wants to please him for no other reason than love itself.
The counter to the first verse did no good. If nothing can separate us from the love of God, then what do you call hell? Your second counter relies on your personal interpretation of scripture, which is not necessarily true. So your "refute" did not change anything.
2 John 1: 7-11
"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work. "
This talks about false teaching from the anticrhrist, and how we can lose what we have learned and follow this false teaching. A person who does not stay in the teachings of Christ does not have God. This can simply mean that a person who falls away from the truthful teachings never knew God in the first place. There are nonchristians out there who follow christian teachings because they make sense!
Romans 5:16-17
" Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."
If the sin of one man caused death for many, how much more will grace reign through Christ? MUCH MORE!
verses 18-21
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "
Grace inceases all the more. Grace reigns so that we have the eternal life which we were never able to gain. Grace reigns so that we have the eternal life we are now unable to maintain.
Jesus told MANY parables to convey the message that we once were lost but now we are found. The point of ALL those parables was to show that God wants us to be found, and not to be lost. I was lost before I came to saving knowledge of Christ. I have not been lost since. The prodigal son was used as a parable to show once more how God wants us to be saved, to be found in him. If the son was found before he squandered the wealth, then yes, I do belive he was still saved at that point. Remember that we were never able to be saved on our own merit to begin with. So he is still saved not on his own merit when he went away.
Can an immoral man enter heaven? You are immoral, can you enter heaven? I am immoral, can I enter heaven? Yes, yes, and yes. Recall the vese about how difficult it is for a rich man to enter heaven. It would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for that rich man to enter heaven. Here in America, we are rich to the majority of the planet. So does this mean none of us will enter heaven because a camel is physically unable to pass through the eye of a needle? Surely not! This goes back to Christ's use of parables.
Please reply with very short and to the point answers. Please quote your verse that says that man is able to give eternal life back to God. Thanks.
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So now our salvation can be lost by how we feel in our heart? I thought perseverence was the biggie on maintainings salvation. I will tell my friend who smokes weed to just feel right about God in his heart and don't worry about his works. I will tell him to just keep an open heart to God and leave it at that. What do you think ?
Don't fear for my salvation, you have enough fear in your life.
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No one who knows God would agree with the attitudes in your post.
Use me as an example. I believe salvation cannot be lost. Please restate your post directed at me, and make every accusation you can. Seriously. If you feel a person who believes in OSAS has the attitudes you just described, then lets find out by using me as an example. So go ahead, ask and accuse.
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For your refutation, see my long post. I gave instruction scripturally. Yes, OSAS can stand. Since you mentioned the verse about fellowship, I will reply to that as well.
1 John chapter 1
"The Word of Life
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. "
They have seen Jesus and testify as personal witnesses. They want us to be in fellowship with them. And they describe this fellowship as one with the Father and the son Jesus Christ. If we claim to have fellowship with God (if we say we are a chrisitan who follows God), yet we live in darkness, then we are liars and we do not live by the truth. There is nothing about salvation here. This is good instruction about living in the light, not about the nature of salvation.
Are you new to the faith? Welcome to the 33,000 different christian denominations who each think they are right. Have you ever been in cross-denominational groups? I have learned to defend certain things that I feel are important. I have also learned that people will believe things regardless of what you say to them, and regardless of what scripture you show them. Can we both be right Ben? Maybe. What really matters in all this? Philippians 1: 18 "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. " I worry about Christ being preached. It is ok that you and I have different scriptural interpretations. I preach Christ, and I would guess that you preach Christ as well. And we should rejoice in this.
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Did I say something about feelings? I don't think that I did.
Have you ever heard that phrase open to recieve instruction?
How about open to correction?
Maybe I need to rephrase it, how about, "willing to do whatever God says"?
Or maybe, "never reject the command of God." or "fear God".
Do any of these help clarify what an open heart means?
The thing that you seem to not realize is that no man can keep an open heart unless God first opens it.
This makes abolutely no sence.
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Your right, but most christians don't know God.
This was not aimed at you, but was based off of something that BJ said, and what I have seen in the lives of most of the christians that I have met.
I am surprised at how many christians never really get into the deep depths in their relationship with God, and it saddens me.
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