Eteral life is impossible to retract.

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LouisBooth

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"Yes. And he is ALSO saying that "abiding in salvation (or abiding in sin) is a choice". We have a choice to sin, then we have a choice to repent and be forgiven or to remain abiding in sin...
"

Not in that passage you talk about. Its very specifically say, a christian can't sin, but if you do..that very CLEARLY tells us christians can sin and be a christian, yet another place it reaffirms you cannot loose your salvation.

"How do you interpret 2Pet2:20-22? They were never saved in the FIRST PLACE? "

Yes, I do, look at the preceeding verses, as context does again show you that you can't loose your salvation. They are described as men that can't stop sinning. They are the ones that hear the message, get excited about it (emotionally) and then don't follow through making empty promises to God, who knows their heart, and false confessions.

"The Scripture says, "of those He has GIVEN Me, I lose nothing. "

Exactly, another one for never loosing your salvation. Well said Ben.



"If salvation can be forfeit, then we (of the "OSNAS bent), contend for nothing less than the eternity of our brothers and sisters in Christ.
"

I would say differently, you contend that grace is not enough.
 
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eldermike

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Yes! - Amen! - That is the boast the bible warns us about. "My faith is better than your faith" "My faith is stronger than your faith"

It is a gift. So, all of this is like saying "my daddy gave be a better present than He gave you"

We are to seek a deeper relationship with God and He will be faithful and reward that with a stronger faith by His evidence and presence, not by mine.

It's a gift, paid in full by the blood of Jesus. OSAS is the only way that God can save us because he can't save the proud, that is what Jesus tried to tell the leaders of the church of His time on earth.

By his grace I can humble myself, admit that I am a sinner, ask for Him to take over my life and He will give me the faith to endure forever.

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, Thou art with me". It's not: Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death doing my part, Thou art with me. It's just His grace and the faith I have is supplied as needed. The "Thou art with me" is faith.

When faith fails it's because I am proud and not seeking Him. It will not condem you, he is still there, it's me that changed. He is still my Father.

Blessings
 
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Originally posted by eldermike
Yes! - Amen! - That is the boast the bible warns us about. "My faith is better than your faith" "My faith is stronger than your faith"

It is a gift. So, all of this is like saying "my daddy gave be a better present than He gave you"

We are to seek a deeper relationship with God and He will be faithful and reward that with a stronger faith by His evidence and presence, not by mine.

It's a gift, paid in full by the blood of Jesus. OSAS is the only way that God can save us because he can't save the proud, that is what Jesus tried to tell the leaders of the church of His time on earth.

By his grace I can humble myself, admit that I am a sinner, ask for Him to take over my life and He will give me the faith to endure forever.

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, Thou art with me". It's not: Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death doing my part, Thou art with me. It's just His grace and the faith I have is supplied as needed. The "Thou art with me" is faith.

When faith fails it's because I am proud and not seeking Him. It will not condem you, he is still there, it's me that changed. He is still my Father.

Blessings

Micah 5:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Matt.7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than man.   Why?
 
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Ben johnson

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There is a kind of faith that is a gift from God---but this kind is given to some Christians and not to other Christians (1Cor12:9). There is a measure of faith God gives to each man (but this may fall under the "Semitic view", which ascribes things to God which are not necessarily His {for instance, Pharaoh's hardening---Exodus 9:34-35 clearly says "Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart", and the next verse 10:1 ascribes it to GOD...})---Rom12:3).

But the faith that is called, "faith-unto-salvation"---is this from MAN, or is it unilateral from GOD?

Louis quoted: A gift from God that none should boast

...this would seem to be from Ephesians 2:8:
"For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works lest anyone boast.

Let's try this verse two ways, first YOUR way:

"For by grace through faith have you been saved, and FAITH is not of yourselves, FAITH is the gift of God, FAITH is not as a result of works lest anyone boast.

Now let's read it another way:

"For by grace through faith have you been saved, and THAT SALVATION (by grace through faith) is not of yourselves, THAT SALVATION is the gift of God, THAT SALVATION is not as a result of works lest anyone boast."

Can "FAITH" be elevated to a second subject? Not honestly. Besides, in the Greek, "That" is neutral gender, "FAITH" is not---for Paul to have really meant "FAITH IS NOT OF YOURSELVES", he would have matched genders. It is clear that there is only ONE subject and FIVE MODIFIERS:

Subject: "That Salvation"
Modifiers:
1. By grace
2. Through faith
3. Not of yourselves
4. Gift of God
5. Not as a result of works lest anyone boast

Paul also wrote Romans, which in chapter 10 says, "Faith comes from HEARING"---either faith is a GIFT from GOD, OR it comes from hearing---it must be one or the other, it cannot be a UNILATERAL GIFT, and come from hearing.
They are described as men that can't stop sinning. (1Pet2)
I agree with you that the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS cannot stop sinning. Here is your problem---those FALSE ones are "stains and blemishes, followers of unrighteousness, NEVER cease from sin and slaves to corruption". In verses 14 and 18, the false entice the true. In verse 19 the false promise the true freedom, while they the false are slaves of corruption. Yet in verse 20, you ("PE" proponents) firmly contend that the NEVER-CEASE-FROM-SIN-FALSE, nevertheless DO escape the defilements through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Why is it that even though, Scripturally, the FALSE entice the TRUE, why is it that you are willing to believe that the FALSE DEGENERATES who never CEASE from sin, DO cease from sin? Can you not see a bold contradiction of theology? The false ones, those dedicated to unrighteousness, according to you ESCAPE the defilements through the epignosis-saved-true-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ! How's that? The "unreasoning animals born to be KILLED, accursed children HAVE THE EPIGNOSIS-KNOWLEDGE-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST???"

Do you know what "epignosis" MEANS?

How about, "epiginosko"? As in, "Far better to have never KNOWN (epiginosko) the way of righteousness (these same who follow balaam and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, you think they KNEW THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS???), than having KNOWN it, to epistrepho-ek-turn-away-from the holy commandment."

Turn away? According to you, they were never IN it, how can they turn away?

To believe the FALSE ONES ever ESCAPED, through true knowledge of Lord & Savior Jesus, creates unmistakable contradictions. Why not simply read verses 18-21, together? "The FALSE seek to entice the TRUE; for if after ESCAPING the defilements through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and overcome, the LAST state is worse than the FIRST (worse than before they were saved). Far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than having KNOWN it, to have turned away from the holy commandment.

If you persist in believing the FALSE are the ones ESCAPED (even though the EXACT SAME WORDS for "escaped, true-knowledge, Lord&Savior Jesus" are unquestionably referring to SAVED in chapter1), then you have contradiction.

If you consider that the "dogs & sows", were for a time SHEEP, but were again entangled in worldly defilements and overcome, and then became dogs & sows again (because of the vomit & mire in which they dwelt), then there is no contradiction.

...but, you would, of course, hafta consider that "predestined-election" is NOT what the Bible teaches.

Which shall we believe, Scripture, or doctrines-of-men?
They are the ones that hear the message, get excited about it (emotionally) and then don't follow through making empty promises to God, who knows their heart, and false confessions.
OK, where is this occurance in Scripture?
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I posted this in a different thread, I thought it was interesting. I guess Logic class was worthwhile after all Offer constructive criticism if you like. Comment if you like. Tell me I am bad at logic if you like
Anyways, this is it.


  • 1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
  • 2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)
  • 3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)
  • 4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)
  • 5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.


Don'tcha just love it when truth is so simple.:) Thanks Dave for posting this. But more importantly:

THANK YOU JESUS!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've got the joy, joy, joy, joy, down in my heart!!! :D
 
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eldermike

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Micah 5:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

True, but has not one thing to do with salvation.


Matt.7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

True, but this has nothing to do with salvation.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than man. Why?

Why? Because we should.
 
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Ben johnson

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My Lambs know my voice. You can't "hear" unless God wants you to hear. Thus it's a gift.
Salvation is a gift, one that is received. But, HEARING is also a GIFT? Not what Scripture says, Mike.

"I am the door; if TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, He shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture...." Jn10:9

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing DIA-THROUGH the word of God". Rom10:17

"Why is it that you cannot understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do the desires of your father." Jn8:43-44

It seems very much to convey that hearing is a CHOICE, hearing comes through the word of God, man chooses to follow God or the devil. Can you show me ANY Scripture that says our hearing is GOD'S choice?
True, but this has nothing to do with salvation.
Entering HEAVEN has nothing to do with SALVATION??? Hmmm....
1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)
3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1)
4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2)
5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract.

Don'tcha just love it when truth is so simple.
Truth is that GOD will NEVER revoke/retract/repent-of our salvation. But does this obviate our OWN ability to REJECT salvation?

"For if we died with Him we shall also live with Him; if we endure we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13

Please tell me if this passage does not convey the possibility for us to deny Him? If we deny Him, if we are faithless, do we remain saved?

If Jesus denies us will we still walk Heaven's streets?

Is it possible for us to go to Heaven, if we are FAITHLESS?

What do you think Paul meant to say here?
 
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LouisBooth

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"Truth is that GOD will NEVER revoke/retract/repent-of our salvation. But does this obviate our OWN ability to REJECT salvation? "

You misunderstand that verse. It is someting you can't revoke/retract/repent of.

"Please tell me if this passage does not convey the possibility for us to deny Him? "

It tells me all the more that you can't reject salvation. YOu don't deny christ if you are a christian, and we are faithless he is faithful. Grace covers it :)

Here Paul is talking about suffering for Christ and proclaiming the gospel as shown in verse 10. Its, as Paul usually does, an encouragement.
 
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eldermike

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Clip from Adrian Rogers article:

"The Lord Jesus Christ is ever interceding for you.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. (John 17:9)
Jesus also prayed: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" (John 17:15, 20). Say your name in that verse because Jesus prayed for you! Has Jesus ever prayed a prayer that wasn't answered? No, not one (see John 11:42 and Hebrews 7:25).

Some people say, "Well, if I believed in this doctrine, then I'd get saved and I'd sin all I want to." Friend, I sin all I want to. I sin more than I want to. I don't want to! When you get saved you get your wanter fixed. As a matter of fact, you get a brand new wanter".

My words:

He already knows who will believe, He has already prayed for them, they will hear and be saved. To God be the glory for His saving work. We must learn where all perfect gifts come from.

The truth has been told. It is my prayer that God be glorfied through your salvation.
 
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Miss Shelby

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Originally posted by LouisBooth


It tells me all the more that you can't reject salvation. YOu don't deny christ if you are a christian, and we are faithless he is faithful. Grace covers it :) 

Louis, show me one Scripture which indicates that Grace covers a faithless believer.

Michelle
 
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Ben johnson

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"Please tell me if this passage does not convey the possibility for us to deny Him? "

It tells me all the more that you can't reject salvation. YOu don't deny christ if you are a christian, and we are faithless he is faithful. Grace covers it
"If we endure we shall also reign; if we deny Him He will deny us." This seems to be an "either-or", mirroring verses as: "He who endures to the end shall be saved". How is it that the verse says to you, "You can't reject salvation"?

If we endure we shall also reign with Him.

If we deny Him He also will deny us.

But we canNOT deny Him? Is that what it says?

If we deny Him then by definition we are faithless.

Yet faithless-people are still saved. How?

ametameletos--- not repentant of, unregretted
"The gifts and calling of God are unregretted".

But doesn't God call ALL men? Yes. Rom12:32.

Doesn't God desire ALL MEN to be saved? Yes. 1Tim2:4.

The GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE. Is this gift received through our own faith? Yes. (Many verses...)

Where do you get, "you can't revoke/retract/repent (reject) salvation"?

"Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law." And why is that? Because of God's SOVEREIGN MACHINATIONS? No, but rather because, "they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works." Is there PREDESTINATION here? Or did they have FREE WILL? (Rom9:31-32)

Could they have pursued it by faith? It seems so. In the "gifts/calling-irrevocable" chapter, namely Romans 11, it clearly says: "They (Israelites) were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited but fear---for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you! And they also, if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief, will be grafted in again, for God is able to graft them in again."

Where is the divine directive in any of this? It seems to me to rather boldly proclaim, "faith/salvation is a CHOICE"...
 
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Miss Shelby

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Louis, show me one Scripture which indicates that Grace covers a faithless believer.
"
Sure no problem. Look at the first part of romans 11:26

"And so all Israel will be saved..."

:)

Maybe we ought to back up a bit in Romans--

Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root. but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE HAUGHTY, BUT FEAR. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE MAY NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS. OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

 This clearly illustrates conditional grace to believers.  Continue in His goodness which led to repentance in the first place.  Or you will be cut off.  And it says if He didn't spare the natural branches, He sure ain't gonna spare a Gentile believer such as myself if I am faithless. 

Note also that the verse says:: YOU STAND BY FAITH.  I think that speaks for itself. 

And while we're on the subject note that the verse says, DO NOT BE  HAUGHTY BUT FEAR.   I point this out only because OSAS/ES defenders love to accuse OSNAS defenders of living in fear of going to hell.

The Scriptures clearly indicate that there is something to be said for having a healthy fear of the Lord.

Michelle
 
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