Eteral life is impossible to retract.

[Ben johnson]

Ben, forgive me for having a.d.d and for getting distracted by your long posts. I find it odd that you posted long again, oh well. Here goes my long reply.

Sorry, Dave. Sometimes there's just so much to say...

I percieve that you are "painting" the passage in Hebrews 6, as "they were never saved in the FIRST place"---because you believe they needed milk, because you say, "They are not aquainted with the teachings about righteousness". Two things dispute you---Paul's (or whoever wrote it) words, "you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. " All over again? They were very well acquainted. And second, the description of these apostates: "once been enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift and been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and tasted of the powers of the age to come..."

I am well aware of the common response to this: "They were TASTERS, SQUATTERS---never really SAVED". Yet the word "partakers" is boldy written there: "METOCHOS". PARTNERS. The exact same word as in Heb3:1 & 14---partners in the heavenly calling, partners in CHRIST. Do you contend that one who PARTNERS in Christ and the HOLY SPIRIT and the HEAVENLY CALLING, such a one is NOT-SAVED??? I do not think the words support that...

The counter to the first verse did no good. If nothing can separate us from the love of God, then what do you call hell?

I guess in this you are right. See if I can clarify---Romans 8 says, "nothing dunamai-chorizo-is-able-to-separate-us from the love of God". Now let's read Jude21: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously to the mercy of Jesus to eternal life." Which is it? Can nothing separate us? Or do we keep ourselves in His love? Both are right. Paul certainly did not support OSAS (many verses demonstrate this---happy to quote if you wish)---so Paul was not saying "You can never get out of salvation" here. God loves us before we are saved, and God loves us even if we perish---yet, we are IN God's love when we receive/abide in Him, and we are OUT of God's love when we DON'T. But He never stops loving us. Please read 2Tim2:11-13---He is faithful even if we perish...

Can an immoral man enter heaven? You are immoral, can you enter heaven? I am immoral, can I enter heaven? Yes, yes, and yes.

Respectfully, Dave, you clearly dispute Paul's very words. "DO NOT BE DECEIVED, (list) will not inherit the kingdom of God" (1Cor6:9-10) "deeds of the flesh are immorality... I forewarn you ...that those who practice such things wll NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD." Gal5:19-21 (The concept of repentance, includes the action of turning-away-from-the-sin---if the sin repeats and repeats, then there IS NO REPENTANCE! And Jesus said, "unless they REPENT, they shall PERISH!" Lk13:3)

And back to 1Cor6, verse 11: "And such WERE some of you; but you were washed, sanctified, justified in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit of our God". Do you see? If you are a Christian, you are not immoral. And I am not immoral. We may have BEEN immoral, but now we are RIGHTEOUS. We walk in HIM, and not in the flesh---for walking in the flesh is DEATH (Rm8), and walking in the Spirit is LIFE.

*I have yet to read a verse that says we can give the gift of salvation back to God.

There is not one. There actually, are many. But let's just deal with one, perhaps the strongest.

First, a little foundation:
"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the SAME KIND as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowlege of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." 2Pet1:1-4

In this passage, "Knowledge" is "Epignosis", which means "true-SAVED-knowledge"---it is experiential. They are escaped, "APOPHEUGO", from the world's corruption. They are of the same faith as Peter.

Do we agree that these are SAVED? They are very saved.

Now in the same letter, let's please read from 2:2:20-21: "For if, after having escaped the defilements of the world by the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, their last state is worse than their first. Far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN it, to TURN AWAY FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT." This passage uses the EXACT SAME WORDS as the passage in chapter 1! Epignosis-true-knowledge of the LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS, apopheugo-escaped the defilements through that true knowledge, but then are fallen---after HAVING KNOWN (epiginosko) the way of righteousness, they EPISTREPHO-EK-TURNED-AWAY-FROM the holy commandment.

Three choices here:
1. They never were saved in the first place
2. They never lost salvation
3. They were saved and fell from salvation

#1 cannot be---they were "apopheugo" world's defilements through the "epignosis" of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS.

#2 cannot be---their first state was "dogs & sows" (by virtue of the vomit & mire in which they first dwelt), they then were SAVED, but they "epistrepho-ek" (turned from) the holy commandment, and "epistrepho-epi" returned to the vomit and "epistrepho-eis" returned unto the mire---they became dogs & pigs AGAIN.

If you choose other than #3, please help me to understand?

Thanx in advance...



PS: HINT---the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS, spoken of at the start of 2Pet2, these never cease from sin, they are SLAVES OF CORRUPTION---there is no way in the world that Peter ever implied that the ESCAPEES, were the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS. No, the FALSE ones seek to entice the TRUE ones: see verse 2:2:14 (enticing unstable souls), and 2:2:18 "entice the ONTOS-APOPHEUGO-TRULY-ESCAPED"---the FALSE, entice the TRUE. And if, after HAVING ESCAPED, the TRUE are again entangled in the defilements and overcome...

The FALSE can NEVER be said to "have escaped the defilements".

Never.

But the TRUE, did escape---and then they were again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome.

 

[Ben johnson]

This talks about false teaching from the anticrhrist, and how we can lose what we have learned and follow this false teaching. A person who does not stay in the teachings of Christ does not have God. This can simply mean that a person who falls away from the truthful teachings never knew God in the first place. There are nonchristians out there who follow christian teachings because they make sense!

"The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I but also all who know the truth, for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever. ...I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth... And now I ask you ...that we love one another. And this is love that we walk according to His commandments. ...For many deceivers have gone out into the world, ...deceiver and antichrist. Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what you have accomplished but that you may receive full reward." You really think John was admonishing those-who-were-NEVER-SAVED? I've heard some say "Oh it's just REWARDS IN Heaven, but not Heaven itself! Heaven is a GIFT, not a REWARD!" But Paul calls it "the reward of the inheritance" in Col3:24". Can anyone honestly contend that "not-abiding-in-Christ" only loses you REWARDS but not HEAVEN ITSELF?

"Watch yourselves that you may not loose what you have gained. Anyone who GOES ON AHEAD and does not ABIDE in the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST"---watch yourselves against the deceivers and the antichrists...

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." 1Tim4:1 All of these were-never-saved-in-the-first-place?

"Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God, ...hardened by the deceifulness of sin." For we are METOCHOS-PARTAKERS in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end..." Heb3:12-14

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men and elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8 Is this not identical to 2Jn1:9?

"Blessed is he who persevers under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say 'I am tempted of God', for God ...does not tempt anyone. But each man is tempted when he is carried away by his own lust. Then when lust is conceived it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished it brings forth death. DO NOT BE DECEIVED, my beloved brethren." Jms1:12-16

Is there anything in Scripture that presents "SAVED-BRETHREN", as being beyond "deception-even-to-death"? Are all of these verses just "empty hyperbole"? How would you accomodate them in an "OSAS" perspective?

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by SnuP
Did I say something about feelings?  I don't think that I did.

Have you ever heard that phrase open to recieve instruction?

How about open to correction?

Maybe I need to rephrase it, how about, "willing to do whatever God says"?

Or maybe, "never reject the command of God." or "fear God".

Do any of these help clarify what an open heart means?

The thing that you seem to not realize is that no man can keep an open heart unless God first opens it.



This makes abolutely no sence.

Ok, I said how the ability to lose salvation implies that we maintain it by good works. You said we do not maintain salvation by good works, rather by having an open heart. To me, this sounds strange. If I was you, I would say it is by works, with all that stuff mentioned about abiding in Christ, and all the warnings about doing good. But this thing about an open heart seems to be odd. I don't see how openess is realted to salvation. We have all agreed that salvation is by faith alone in christ alone, the only disagreement is whether or not we can give this salvation back to God or not. It's my contention that salvation can never be lost, and its your counter that it can be given back. And as it was stated, there is no direct verse that says this, it is pure interpretation. Man is imperfect. So a man's interpretation is imperfect. Your view of "once saved possibly saved" is an imperfect interpretation at best. This may be the case for me as well, but I find direct verses supporting OSAS, and thats the difference.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by SnuP
Your right, but most christians don't know God.

This was not aimed at you, but was based off of something that BJ said, and what I have seen in the lives of most of the christians that I have met.

I am surprised at how many christians never really get into the deep depths in their relationship with God, and it saddens me.

Most christians don't know God? I would agree with this in part, if you include "christians" who go to church on christmas and easter. It is true that a good number of christians never persue God very far. They don't spend time in his word, or praying. It saddens me too. Ideally, the church these people go to preach depth in Christ. Ideally, they have small groups and get people plugged in. Ideally there are discipleship programs, etc. But the truth of it is that the workers are few, very few. I love it when I see a brother or sister get involved in the church, and plugged into a ministry or group of some kind. I love it even more when a nonbeliever comes to faith. I would not know what to do with my life if it was not in service to God. Nothing else in this world makes sense to do on its own, and for its own purpose.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Ok, I said how the ability to lose salvation implies that we maintain it by good works. You said we do not maintain salvation by good works, rather by having an open heart. To me, this sounds strange. If I was you, I would say it is by works, with all that stuff mentioned about abiding in Christ, and all the warnings about doing good. But this thing about an open heart seems to be odd. I don't see how openess is realted to salvation. We have all agreed that salvation is by faith alone in christ alone, the only disagreement is whether or not we can give this salvation back to God or not. It's my contention that salvation can never be lost, and its your counter that it can be given back. And as it was stated, there is no direct verse that says this, it is pure interpretation. Man is imperfect. So a man's interpretation is imperfect. Your view of "once saved possibly saved" is an imperfect interpretation at best. This may be the case for me as well, but I find direct verses supporting OSAS, and thats the difference.

Why do these phrases seem odd to you?

"Open to recieve instruction"?

"open to correction"?

"willing to do whatever God says"?

"never reject the command of God."

"fearing God".

If these are not a part of the relationship with God, how can any one say that they are saved.  You say how can these be related to salvation, but how can they not.  If you are saved but are always doing what you want to do, how can you call Jesus Lord?  If when God comes to you and ask you to stop such and such type of sin, and you usually try to ignore God's correction, how can you say that you are a son of God?  If when God asks you to pray more or read and study the bible more, and you never find time, how can you say that you love God?  These are the things that most christians do.  They go to church and pray to God, especially when they get in trouble, and they wressle with sin some times, but Monday thru Saturday their will is supreme.  How can you say that they know God.  If they really knew God, then they would do the will of God.  Jesus said that if you love me then you will keep my commandments.  Yet christians are constantly bickering, holding on to grudges and bitterness, acting out of fear, yelling at their children, acting in pride, trying to prove themselves, and generally not listening to God at all.  And you say that they know God?  I say that they do the works of their father.  If they would just listen to God then all of these things would not exist in their lives.  That is why I say that they should have an open heart to hear God.  If they would just have an open heart to hear God, then He would finish the work of salvation in them.  The work of cricifying the flesh, the work of casting of the old nature, the work of santification, the work of releasing the spirit, the work of burying the sinful nature.

God came not just to give man a new spirit, but to change man, to set the captive free from sin, to make us more then overcomers, to give us liberty and life, and to restore the relationship between God and man.  To make every man like Enoch.  How many christians can say that they walk and talk with God, that they do nothing of themselves, that they only do what they see the Father doing, that the Holy Spirit lead them in everything, that they experience the love of God in their secret garden, where they are held and loved and accepted, and God wispers secrets into their spirit and they never loose fellowship with God, that God poors His Spirit into them like the dedication of Solomon's temple, until they are so full that no flesh can remain?

 

[SnuP]

What kind of relationship am I talking about? A one-on-one relationship? I talk to you, you talk to me, we laugh together, we sing together, I cry and you hold me, I mess up and you show me the right way, I feel lonely and you hug me and tell me you love me relationship? A relationship where God keeps bringing me closer to Him, from glory to glory as it were, by showing me himself in the word and renewing my mind so that I can better hear His voice, His accual voice. Healing all my failures and broken relationships. Restoring me to my family and giving me favor in my job. And bringing me closer to all those that love the Lord, in a mutual fellowship that begins and end on the name of Christ.

That's the kind of relationship that I'm talking about.

I don't think that there is anything more important in scripture or life than this relationship with God. Even salvation is just the avenue to achieve this kind of relationship.

 

[DaveKerwin]

I honestly don't see what point you are trying to make. I think I may be understanding you, let me see if I can sum it up.

You say that a person who has the described relationship with God will not lose salvation. Is this what you are saying? If you are saying this, then please also tell me the point in which the salvation is lost.

 

[SnuP]

The relationship that I am discribing is the start of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6.

I also wanted to show you what I believe "abiding in Christ" really can mean. Salvation can be lost when a person stops abiding in Christ and closes their heart to the drawing of the Holy Spirit in order to persue something not of God.

Everything that I discribed is the deeper depths of abiding in Christ, but is not nessesary for one to be able to say that they abide in Christ. Abiding in Christ is simply drawing near to God. But most people only come so close because of a false believe about what a relationship with God really is. Very few people teach the truth about the depth that one can attain in a relationship. And because of this the church has suffered and is now weak and frail. God is our life source, let us draw as close as possible and stay with in His presence. If we remain in Christ we will never loose our salvation.

 

[DaveKerwin]

So when does a person know they are no longer abiding in christ? Do they have to stop praying for a week? Do they need to forget about their relationship with God for a while? This is all works based. Salvation as you have said, is based on what you do, and NOT based on what you were unable to do in the first place. Do you even understand God's Grace ?

 

[SnuP]

See your still missing it. It happens when they are not open to recieve correction or instruction from God. When they stop fearing God.When they abbandon listening to God in favor of doing things their way.

 

[Ben johnson]

So when does a person know they are no longer abiding in christ? Do they have to stop praying for a week? Do they need to forget about their relationship with God for a while? This is all works based. Salvation as you have said, is based on what you do, and NOT based on what you were unable to do in the first place. Do you even understand God's Grace ?

Beyond what Snup said, salvation occurs when we believe. Salvation ends when someone DISBELIEVES. As Heb 3 says, "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God" (Do you think 3:12, that says "falling away from the living God", do you think the writer meant "falling away from the living God"?).

Many facets describe salvation---it is identically fellowship with God & Christ, it is walking in the Spirit, it is abiding in Christ, it is repentance, it is all of these things---and every one of them comes under the banner of "born-again".

So too do many facets describe condemnation---it is "outta fellowship with God", it is disbelief, it is practicing sin, it is unrepentance, it is "continuing to sin willfully".

You say "salvation is not based on what we do"? It is very much based on one thing that we did---we received it. We received salvation, in that we received JESUS. Receiving Jesus, believing in Him, IS a work. Is it OUR work? "And this is the work of GOD, that you believe in Him who God has sent." Jn6:29 It is the work of God---it is not our work. It is our choice, and salvation is what He does in us---when He has been received in us in-the-first-place.

Salvation is abiding-in-Christ---and abiding is a choice.

Daily.

Are you game to answer posts #161 & 162? Does 2Pet2:20-22 speak of "falling-from-salvation", or not? If not, then why not? 2Jn1:7-9 is addressed to "the chosen lader & her children, children who are walking in the truth"---do you still contend that these are not saved?

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by SnuP
See your still missing it. It happens when they are not open to recieve correction or instruction from God. When they stop fearing God.When they abbandon listening to God in favor of doing things their way.

The problem is you have no concrete answer. Lets say I no longer fear God, but I am open to correction, open to instruction, and I listen to God. Or change it up a bit from there. If you are not osas, then I suggest holding Ben's position, named in the post previous to this.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Beyond what Snup said, salvation occurs when we believe. Salvation ends when someone DISBELIEVES. As Heb 3 says, "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God" (Do you think 3:12, that says "falling away from the living God", do you think the writer meant "falling away from the living God"?).

Many facets describe salvation---it is identically fellowship with God & Christ, it is walking in the Spirit, it is abiding in Christ, it is repentance, it is all of these things---and every one of them comes under the banner of "born-again".

So too do many facets describe condemnation---it is "outta fellowship with God", it is disbelief, it is practicing sin, it is unrepentance, it is "continuing to sin willfully".

You say "salvation is not based on what we do"? It is very much based on one thing that we did---we received it. We received salvation, in that we received JESUS. Receiving Jesus, believing in Him, IS a work. Is it OUR work? "And this is the work of GOD, that you believe in Him who God has sent." Jn6:29 It is the work of God---it is not our work. It is our choice, and salvation is what He does in us---when He has been received in us in-the-first-place.

Salvation is abiding-in-Christ---and abiding is a choice.

Daily.

Are you game to answer posts #161 & 162? Does 2Pet2:20-22 speak of "falling-from-salvation", or not? If not, then why not? 2Jn1:7-9 is addressed to "the chosen lader & her children, children who are walking in the truth"---do you still contend that these are not saved?

Ben, I have chosen not to repond to those longer posts, its too much for me. But I will respond to this, at least with this post I know where to start



Hebrews 3: 12-13
"See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. "

Paul tells the Hebrews to not have a "heart that turns away from God". The he tells them to encourage one another so we are not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. I do not see a hardened heart to be disbelieving. I have a good friend who is struggling right now with knowing God's faithfulness because of some personal struggles. He has admitted that his heart feels far from God. The origin is not important. The point is that he still very much so believes, but he has become somewhat hardened as a result of his situation. He has not fallen beyond recovery, he is just in a spiritual slump, and he is trying to get out. Paul says to encourage each other so that this does not happen. So I try to encourage my friend that things will look better, and that God will meet his needs. So in a way, he has turned his heart from God, but has not gone into disbelief. One more example. I dated a girl who professed faith, as we dated her faith weakened, to the point where she said she did not believe. She was lying to herself so she didnt feel bad about sin, and later confessed that she still believes, but was trying not to feel guilty, she was case in point for being caught by the deceitfulness of sin. (that is my responce to Hebrews 3).

I define salvation mostly by God's Grace. Salvation is being saved from our sins, attaining eternal life through Christ. Grace plays a role in this because the law could never save us, Grace is getting what we don't deserve, which is the forgiveness of sins / eternal life (ie, salvation).

Salvation is not based on what we do. By "we" I am talking about you and I, who are both professing christians. So your whole thing about believing is already done. From this piont, it is not by what we do. Because we were unable to do it from the beginning. We are still unable to do it, which is where Grace comes in. Allowing us salvation, which we do not deserve.

2 Peter 2:20. The entire chapter is focused on false prophets. Verse 20 talks about false prophets, and says this :

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

Does this say they fell from salvation? I don't see where it says that. (BTW, this is the NASB, it was more wordy than the NIV so I quoted it instead). False teachers have knowledge of Jesus, but they were entagled again in things of this world. 2 Peter 2 says that it is worse for them being entagled again, worse than if they never know about righteousness. Worse how? Worse in the eyes of God because they have the knowledge of Christ. I will allow God to be the judge of people like that. I will not judge and say that such a person lost salvation. But like it says at the end of the chapter, a dog returns to its vomit. That dog is worse off going back there, because it already knows what its eating. This text does not say that them returning to the ways of the world voids their salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, Dave. I prefer the NAS, it messes up in translation far less than KJV or NIV.

I shall copy a small part of post #161, in answer to your last post (hopefully this is short enough to deal with)---I did not copy the part about 2Pet chapter 1, which addresses undeniably saved people, and chapter 1 uses the EXACT SAME WORDS as does chapter 2 (just page back to read my comments on chapter 1) :

let's please read from 2:2:20-21: "For if, after having escaped the defilements of the world by the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, their last state is worse than their first. Far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN it, to TURN AWAY FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT." This passage uses the EXACT SAME WORDS as the passage in chapter 1! Epignosis-true-knowledge of the LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS, apopheugo-escaped the defilements through that true knowledge, but then are fallen---after HAVING KNOWN (epiginosko) the way of righteousness, they EPISTREPHO-EK-TURNED-AWAY-FROM the holy commandment.

Three choices here:
1. They never were saved in the first place
2. They never lost salvation
3. They were saved and fell from salvation

#1 cannot be---they were "apopheugo" world's defilements through the "epignosis" of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS.

#2 cannot be---their first state was "dogs & sows" (by virtue of the vomit & mire in which they first dwelt), they then were SAVED, but they "epistrepho-ek" (turned from) the holy commandment, and "epistrepho-epi" returned to the vomit and "epistrepho-eis" returned unto the mire---they became dogs & pigs AGAIN.

If you choose other than #3, please help me to understand?

Thanx in advance...



PS: HINT---the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS, spoken of at the start of 2Pet2, these never cease from sin, they are SLAVES OF CORRUPTION---there is no way in the world that Peter ever implied that the ESCAPEES, were the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS. No, the FALSE ones seek to entice the TRUE ones: see verse 2:2:14 (enticing unstable souls), and 2:2:18 "entice the ONTOS-APOPHEUGO-TRULY-ESCAPED"---the FALSE, entice the TRUE. And if, after HAVING ESCAPED, the TRUE are again entangled in the defilements and overcome...

The FALSE can NEVER be said to "have escaped the defilements".

Never.

But the TRUE, did escape---and then they were again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome.

 

[LouisBooth]

In your arguments, please show me how the man lowered down from the roof was saved..not by his faith He could have still been turned away.

"1. They never were saved in the first place"

Exactly right. Ben there is no verse 20 in chapters 1, 2 or 3 of Hebrews, so I must assume its 2nd Peter. This is speaking of knowing as in knowledge, as the deamons know of Christ.

"1) precise and correct knowledge
1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine"

It is used in hebrews 10:26 saying the "knowledge of the truth". As we see here its not a saving thing unto itself, but it is knowing, not believing. Sorry Ben, #1 is exactly right. I'd say they were the heard the message, but didn't really believe it. Knowledge without belief.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Ben, I already responced to 2Peter 2 at the end of post 173. I am uncertain whether it would be #1 or 2. Try making a post without Greek words.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
The problem is you have no concrete answer. Lets say I no longer fear God, but I am open to correction, open to instruction, and I listen to God. Or change it up a bit from there. If you are not osas, then I suggest holding Ben's position, named in the post previous to this.

Then maybe you don't understand what the fear of the lord is.  If you don't fear God then you are going to do things your own way. and that where you are going to get messed up.

 

[Pastor Bob Oliver]

  Amen Amen Amen! The Doctrine of the Eternal Security of the Believer is clearly taught throughout the Sacred Text; For one to deny that Eternal Life is Eternal is simply decieving himself; either something is Eternal or it is Temporal; Heb 5:9 says--"Being made Perfect, HE became the Author of Eternal Salvation unto all them that obey HIM"!!!!!!!

 

[Auntie]

Welcome to Christian Forums, Pastor Bob!

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by SnuP
Then maybe you don't understand what the fear of the lord is.  If you don't fear God then you are going to do things your own way. and that where you are going to get messed up.

Snup, you are the one who is not understanding. You see where I said "or change it up a bit" ? I was not using the fear of the lord necessarily as an example. I was trying to show the inconsistancy of your view. A person can do four out of the five requirements you listed for salvation, but not do one of them. If one thing is missed, is salvation lost? What about if two or three of the requirements are not met? I don't expect you to have an actual answer to this question because the question itself is somewhat absurd, based off of absurd premises.