Eteral life is impossible to retract.

[eldermike]

The logic that started this thread has not been defeated, in fact it hasn't been discussed. I think Dave settled it. Next issue please.

 

[Miss Shelby]

The logic that started this thread has not been defeated, in fact it hasn't been discussed. I think Dave settled it. Next issue please.

It has been discussed. God will never take away our salvation. But we can walk away from it.

What is the point of splitting hairs over it? Just because a person believes once upon a time in Jesus Christ does not forever settle the matter of their salvation.

Michelle

 

[LouisBooth]

"God will never take away our salvation. But we can walk away from it. "

Nope, that implies we have power over God and also denies the verse I quoted from romans

 

[Susan]

 either way, I'll see you in Heaven! -^.^-

 

[Ben johnson]

"God will never take away our salvation. But we can walk away from it. "

Nope, that implies we have power over God and also denies the verse I quoted from romans

It only implies we have power over God, if you assume that God has decreed our salvation. If the only thing that God has predestined, is "JESUS-ON-THE-CROSS", and that "whosoever believes is saved", then it simply is not "power over God"---it is merely operating within the parameters that God has established...

Romans 11:29 "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

In this context i can't see how you can say election is revocable since it is specifically talking about salvation.

None of us have ever said "election is revocable". Nor have we said, "salvation is revocable". God is eternally faithful. In 2Tim2:11-13, we are assured that "if we endure we shall reign with Him". But it also assures us, that "if we deny Him He also will deny us". If we deny Him? Can we deny Him and still be saved? If we deny Him, has HE rejected US? Certainly not! The very next verse says, "if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself". This passage affirms that "He will never revoke our salvation". Yet it also speaks of the real possibility of US denyin HIM, and US being FAITHLESS---can we be faithless-but-saved?

"For by grace have you been saved, even if you are faithless..."

???

I dun' think so...

If we are faithless and deny Him, He will deny us---but the gift has not been REVOKED, it has been REJECTED.

His faith is PERFECT---revoking salvation would be directed "God-toward-man"; but WE are IMPERFECT---rejecting salvation would be directed "man-toward-God". If His perfect will is to ALLOW mankind to recieve Jesus, or deny Him, by voluntary volition, then the responsibility of our eternal destiny rests entirely on our own shoulders. This bears out the concept of "justness" beautifully---no one goes to Hell, but by voluntary unbelief; conversely, none go to Heaven but those who BELIEVE.



PS: "Voluntary volition"??? HI, I'm from the department of redundancy department...

 

[SnuP]

God's gifts and callings are irrevocable!
A good example is the gift of the promise land and the call the a Isreal would be God's people (a type and shadow of the church). Both of these came true. But not every Isrealite pertook of the gifts and call. The body of Christ is an organism (just like Isreal is an organisation), God deals with the body as one unit. If a part of the body is defective and causing the rest of the body to be in sin then God will cut of that member. "Better that it be lame then not enter the kingdom" Jesus said. A little leaven leavens the whole loaf. God has predestined and called the body of Christ to holiness justification and glory, not individual members. A good example is Romans 11:13-24. Paul says that we as gentiles must continue in God's kindness, otherwise we will be cut of after we had been grafted in. God cares more about the body as a whole then He cares about membership. He has to transform the body of Christ into the Bride of Christ, without spot or blemish. There is alot of spots on the body of Christ. The bible says that if you don't bear fruit that you will be remove. You will whither and be burned. So if you are in Christ and are not bearing fruit then you will be removed because you are a blemish, a dead limb.

Hows that for logic.

 

[SnuP]

refering to the incorruptable seed. some fell on rocky ground, some fell among thorns. Both lived and then died because they could not overcome.

 

[LouisBooth]

"If we deny Him, has HE rejected US? "

But you don't understand the passage in romans at all Ben. Israel DID reject Christ, but Paul comes to the conclusion that theywill still be saved and sums up with the statement I gave you. Now we mesh this by looking at other passages like in John where it clearly shows christians will NEVER reject christ, thus OSAS is the biblical conclusion.

SNUP, that passage in romans is specifically talking about individual believers, not the church. We can see that in verse 30 where he refers to individual people, for the church was never 'disobdeient'.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Now we mesh this by looking at other passages like in John where it clearly shows christians will NEVER reject christ, thus OSAS is the biblical conclusion. 
 

That passage in John does not show that Christians will never reject Christ.  It is dependant on the sheep hearing and following Jesus. Like I said before, the verbs are in the ongoing present tense (imagine that, since saving faith is supposed to remain in the ongoing present tense)--so what Christ is saying is if the sheep hear and continue to hear, and obey and continue to obey... they will never be snatched out of the Father's hand.

As far as whether or not true Christians can fall away..Luke 8:13 sums it up.  They can.  And they do.  And many of them probably believe they can never lose their salvation.

Michelle

 

[The Bible is Right]

I read this post from the beginning, what I seen is that no one is listening to what the bible is saying. Everbodys mind is lock in on what they believe the bible is saying to them.

Does anyone know what happened to the children of Israel?
Did the whole nation remain faithful to God?
Do they (Israel) still own all of the promised land?
Did God reject them, after they rejected Him?

It is true that the church that Jesus purchased with his own blood will be saved, no dout about that.
But some individuals who started out believing in Christ, and have sense gone astray will be losted, this is very clear in the new testament, "faithfulness" to Christ is a MUST!

There are ten post on this subject, some "pro" and some "con" we have to let God be true and every man a lair.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
SNUP, that passage in romans is specifically talking about individual believers, not the church. We can see that in verse 30 where he refers to individual people, for the church was never 'disobdeient'.

Remember that Rom. 11 is specifically refering to the mercy of God being given to the gentiles by the jews disobedience.  To say that it is refering to individuals in a church is to take the scripture completely out of context.

Romans11:

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they (the Jews) are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God'd gifts and his call (His promises to the patriarchs about Isreal) are irrevocable. 30 Just as you (the gentiles) who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their (the Jews) disobedience, 31 so they (the Jews) too have now become disobedient in order that they (the Jews) too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you(the gentiles).  32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. 

The context is shown in verse 11.

 Again I ask:  Did they stumble so as to fall beyound recovery?  Not at all!  Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.  12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

All of chapter 11 is about the Jews and the Gentiles. 

 

[SnuP]

God's calling and gift of eternal life is for the organism called the Body of Christ. It is not established for the individual member. In order to pertake of the gifts and callings of God the individual member must remain grafted into the Body of Christ. He must pertake of the gift of life that flows through the body of Christ. The gift of life is not in the individual members it is in the body as a whole. Paul said that the branches do not support the root. The root supports the branches. The gift of life spings forth from the root of Christ and flows through the organism called the body. The gardener (the Father) is going to prune this organism, this tree, this vine, and remove any dead branches and prune back the living fruit producing brances so that holiness is produced through out the tree.

 

[LouisBooth]

"That passage in John does not show that Christians will never reject Christ. "

What does they will never follow another mean to you MissS???

 

[LouisBooth]

"Remember that Rom. 11 is specifically refering to the mercy of God being given to the gentiles by the jews disobedience. To say that it is refering to individuals in a church is to take the scripture completely out of context. "

No, its not, look at verse 30. Her Paul is specifically refering to INDIVIDUALS.

Just as YOU who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result...

The church has NEVER been disobedient, so he can't be refering to it, but individuals as marked by the YOU have. he is refering to individual salvation, it is irrevocable.

 

[SnuP]

In english the word "you"can be singular or plural. In this case it is plural. You've got to look at content. And remember you third grade grammer.

 

[eldermike]

When you graft a branch into a vine they become one, it's no longer vine and branch it's all the same thing. When you prune off a branch that is not producing fruit you do not remove the graft. The graft is part of the vine as long as there is a vine. In fact, the base of the graft can grow another branch. When this was written grafting was understood. Every graft that has has produced a knot in the vine that will always be there, even if the branch is not producing.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"That passage in John does not show that Christians will never reject Christ. "

What does they will never follow another mean to you MissS???

My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me and I give them eternal life, and they  shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

Louis the first two verbs hear and follow happens before the Father gives anything.  And they shall never perish as long as they continue to hear and follow.  If obeying and hearing cease, so does the promised security.

Michelle

 

[eldermike]

Mis Shelby,

With all due respect, the verse begins with "My Sheep", He owns them, purchased with His blood. We are not ours, We are His. It's not an instruction to us, it's an ownership certificate of His.

Blessings

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by eldermike
Mis Shelby,

With all due respect, the verse begins with "My Sheep", He owns them, purchased with His blood. We are not ours, We are His. It's not an instruction to us, it's an ownership certificate of His.

Blessings

right on Mike, we are not our own !

 

[eldermike]

On the lighter side.

To paraphrase a famous Munchkin Coroner: We,re not just merely saved, we are really, most sincerely saved.