Eteral life is impossible to retract.

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by eldermike
Mis Shelby,

With all due respect, the verse begins with "My Sheep", He owns them, purchased with His blood. We are not ours, We are His. It's not an instruction to us, it's an ownership certificate of His.

Blessings

eldermike,  In the Parable of the Lost Son, was he not a sheep?  At one time he was in the right standing with his Father, but the Parable is clear that when he went away he was lost. (not saved)  And it was only in returning to Him that he was saved.

Thanks for the munchkin reference.  Now I'm playing 'We're off to see the wizard" in my head.

Michelle

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by eldermike
When you graft a branch into a vine they become one, it's no longer vine and branch it's all the same thing. When you prune off a branch that is not producing fruit you do not remove the graft. The graft is part of the vine as long as there is a vine. In fact, the base of the graft can grow another branch. When this was written grafting was understood. Every graft that has has produced a knot in the vine that will always be there, even if the branch is not producing.

what a wonderful way to try to reconcile the obvious.  But Paul wasn't writing to people who knew everyting about grafting so that means that we must take the scipture at face value rather than try to read more into it, or make it fit our doctrine.  The scripture says a branch can be removed if it does not remain in God's kindness.

 

[LouisBooth]

"In english the word "you"can be singular or plural. In this case it is plural. You've got to look at content. And remember you third grade grammer.
"

I did, that is ALSO why I showed that the church will never and has never been disobendient, thus he was talking to individuals. Next time read my whole post snup


"Louis the first two verbs hear and follow happens before the Father gives anything. And they shall never perish as long as they continue to hear and follow"

*sigh* no no, you're not looking at the whole passage. The sheep follow no one else, only christ. That much is certain from that passage, so if you're following something else, you're not a christian in the first place. YOu can't give it up Miss, and I'm happy to tell ya that

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"In english the word "you"can be singular or plural. In this case it is plural. You've got to look at content. And remember you third grade grammer.
"

I did, that is ALSO why I showed that the church will never and has never been disobendient, thus he was talking to individuals. Next time read my whole post snup

I think that there is a miss understanding here.   Verse 30 is refering to the gentiles not the church when it says that they were disobedient.  Because it refers to gentiles as a whole it cannot refer to the church or to an individual.  If this was my mistake then I'm sorry.  But the group that I was saying it refered to in the plural sense is the gentiles as clearly demonstrated by the rest of the passage.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by SnuP
A good example is Romans 11:13-24. Paul says that we as gentiles must continue in God's kindness, otherwise we will be cut of after we had been grafted in.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by SnuP
Remember that Rom. 11 is specifically refering to the mercy of God being given to the gentiles by the jews disobedience.  To say that it is refering to individuals in a church is to take the scripture completely out of context.

All of chapter 11 is about the Jews and the Gentiles. 

I hope it can be seen from the quotes of my previous posts that I was specifically refering, as Paul did, to the gentiles as the group of verse 30 that had previously been in disobedience.

Louis please go back and reread my original post to see how this all ties in.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Verse 30 is refering to the gentiles not the church when it says that they were disobedient"

NO, its refering to the "elect" talked about in verses 28 and 29.

Look at the verses, snup, the context shows that Paul is saying that God's promices are irrevocable, and as an extension salvation is also. That is why all of Israel will be saved.

 

[eldermike]

what a wonderful way to try to reconcile the obvious. But Paul wasn't writing to people who knew everyting about grafting so that means that we must take the scipture at face value rather than try to read more into it, or make it fit our doctrine. The scripture says a branch can be removed if it does not remain in God's kindness.

The only purpose of anology is to make something hard to understand easier to understand. A good anology always uses things that are understood to explain things not understood. This has never changed, language needs word pictures but the good ones are ones that we know something about.

 

[SnuP]

Romans 11:
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Originally posted by SnuP
Romans11:
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they (the Jews) are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God'd gifts and his call (His promises to the patriarchs about Isreal) are irrevocable. 30 Just as you (the gentiles) who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their (the Jews) disobedience, 31 so they (the Jews) too have now become disobedient in order that they (the Jews) too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you(the gentiles). 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Verse 28 and 29 clearly says that the Jews have a part in the election because they are love on account of the partriarchs and because He promise the fathers that they are His chosen people.

The scripture is not focasing on electionbut rather how the gentiles are able to recieve salvation event after their disobedience.

 

[Thunderchild]

Well done Snup - the perfect demonstration.

 

[LouisBooth]

"The scripture is not focasing on electionbut rather how the gentiles are able to recieve salvation event after their disobedience."

And I would disagree. It is focusing on How God doesn't renig on his promices with a summation of Paul's arugments in the previous chapters.

We can see it clearly in verse 26:And so all Israel will be saved..."

Why? vs 30: because the Gifts of God are irrevocatble.

All gifts, not just jewish ones. Salvation is irrevocable. That's what Paul is saying. Sorry to burst your bubble snup. The verse 30-32 is just a comparison to the people now saved by the grace of God to Isreal.

Oh, by they way snup, nice backpeddling..first he was refering to the church..now the gentiles? How many times are you going to change your story

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by LouisBooth


"Louis the first two verbs hear and follow happens before the Father gives anything. And they shall never perish as long as they continue to hear and follow"

*sigh* no no, you're not looking at the whole passage. The sheep follow no one else, only christ. That much is certain from that passage, so if you're following something else, you're not a christian in the first place.

Louis, by this logic you would have to say that if someone becomes a believer in Christ and follows for a lengthy period of time--and then for whatever reason falls away and produced bad fruit--that they were never saved in the first place.   Or that if they really are true believers they will be irresistably drawn to repentance before completion of their earthly lives.  Either way it doesn't make sense.  How can someone who has tasted and seen that the Lord is good and seemingly is a true believer in Christ...then for whatever reason (sin) is enticed and dragged away..not saved in the first place?

And the thought that a person can backslide for several years and be brought back to repentance before their death means that a person can actually serve God's enemy and then still be rewarded for it.

How many prodigals do you know who are in the far country right now?  Backsliders, if you will?  I know a few... and I am not willing to hand them over to the enemy by letting them think they can never lose their salvation.

 

YOu can't give it up Miss, and I'm happy to tell ya that

Thanks for that, Louis.  I know it's your firm conviction and I appreciate the kind words.  And I don't want to give it up.  What else is there to live for if not Jesus Christ?

Michelle

 

[SnuP]

There is no back peddling. He refers to the gentiles when he talks about them being disobedient. Then he refers to the gentiles who recieved salvation when he walks about them recieving mercy.

First a Gentile in disobedience, then a saved gentile by God's mercy.

Have you even tryed to look at it from a different point ot view? Please be a little opened minded about this.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by LouisBooth


*sigh* no no, you're not looking at the whole passage. The sheep follow no one else, only christ. That much is certain from that passage, so if you're following something else, you're not a christian in the first place. YOu can't give it up Miss, and I'm happy to tell ya that

 

John 10:27-30 - Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, AND THEY FOLLOW ME. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one" ~

The sheep are hearing and they are following.  I still say that if they cease that practice, then they are walking in darkness and sin.  This passage is not about the sheep irresistably hearing the Father's voice, it's about the fact that they are hearing and following. As for the second part...when you lose something or give it away, have you snatched it from yourself?  This is not talking about the believer. This is referring to the fact that the believer will remain in the Lord if they continue to hear and follow.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

this was a double post.  I didn't think it took the first time so I posted another. I hate when that happens

 

 

[Ben johnson]

Miss Shelby,
"That passage in John does not show that Christians will never reject Christ. "

What does they will never follow another mean to you MissS???

With all due respect, the verse begins with "My Sheep", He owns them, purchased with His blood. We are not ours, We are His. It's not an instruction to us, it's an ownership certificate of His.

*sigh* no no, you're not looking at the whole passage. The sheep follow no one else, only christ. That much is certain from that passage, so if you're following something else, you're not a Christian in the first place.

The whole passage, includes verse 9: "I am the door of the sheep. If anyone ("TIS"---anyone) enters through Me, he shall be saved, and he shall go in and out and find pasture."

Combine this with, "I am the true vine, My Father the vinedresser. Abide in Me, and I in you; any branch that does not abide in Me is thrown away ...and cast into the fire".

They are His sheep because they choose to enter the Door.

The DOOR is JESUS.

They are His sheep if they abide in Him.

If they do not abide, they are cast out, and are no longer his sheep.

It seems clear to me---how am I misunderstanding it???

 

[LouisBooth]

"Louis, by this logic you would have to say that if someone becomes a believer in Christ and follows for a lengthy period of time--and then for whatever reason falls away and produced bad fruit--that they were never saved in the first place. "

Great point MissS. yes, that's exactly what I believe. A pear tree will NEVER produce oranges

"How can someone who has tasted and seen that the Lord is good and seemingly is a true believer in Christ"

I don't know, ask the people that God said, "I never knew you." to, or Judus.


"And I don't want to give it up. What else is there to live for if not Jesus Christ?
"

Spoken truely like an always preserved Saint


"Have you even tryed to look at it from a different point ot view? Please be a little opened minded about this."

Snup, I'm fully openminded about this. So much so that I now believe in OSAS when I did not before. That passage is clearly saying what I am telling you. I've read it quite a lot and talked with a lot of people about it. God showed me this passage and used it, among others, to show me that you can't give up your salvation.

"The sheep are hearing and they are following. "

The point of the passage is to say that the sheep will NEVER follow another. They will run away from them. They recognize ONLY Christ's voice. Great OSAS supporting verses

"They are His sheep because they choose to enter the Door."

Exactly, as an unbeliever they choose to be a christian. Now combinding this passage with another totally unlike it is not a good thing to do. The passage in John 15 was spoken to HIS DISCIPLES and to them alone it seems. Look at the context. The passage in John 10 was to ALL the people, so the context is different in an important way Ben. Please remember that. You can't help but abide in God if you are a christian, and if not, that's where grace comes in Check out romans

 

[Ben johnson]

You can't help but abide in God if you are a christian, and if not, that's where grace comes in. Check out Romans...

But if you ABIDE in God, you cannot sin. 1Jn3:6-9 plainly says so. Did John mean what he said? Or, was John operating on a deeper meaning, supported in his 2nd letter, 2:1:7-9, which seems to indicate that abiding is a choice?

What if, what if "not-abiding", is consequetial and identical to SIN, where the "decieved by sin to falling away from the living God" (Heb3), and "each is tempted by lust, lust gives birth to sin, sin brings death" (Jms1); or, "brethren, we are under obligation to live not according to the flesh, for if we do we must die, but we are to put to death the deeds of the body that we will live" (Rm8)---what if all of these (and many more) verses are boldly going where no man has gone... (oops---I shouldn't be watching "Star Trek" while typing :o )

WHAT if all these verses are boldly saying that, "abiding is a choice, and sinning-is-to-not-abide"?

Is THAT the verse in Romans to which you referred?

The point of the passage is to say that the sheep will NEVER follow another. They will run away from them. They recognize ONLY Christ's voice. Great OSAS supporting verses

"They are His sheep because they choose to enter the Door."

Exactly, as an unbeliever they choose to be a christian.

Now you confuse me---if they are His sheep because they enter the door, are they not His sheep while they remain in the fold? If "ENTERING" is a choice, why is not "ABIDING" a choice?

 

[Ben johnson]

I don't know, ask the people that God said, "I never knew you." to, or Judas.

Was Judas ever saved? Was he ever, "of the elect"???

 

[SnuP]

produce fruit in keeping with repentence.

Let us choose to remain humbly before our God. Hating our own life that we may find God's glory being revealed in us. Choosing to lay down our will in favor of the call. The call to complete surrender to the gospel and the relationship. Seeking only the kingdom of God and the righteousness of Christ in us.

After all, why would Christ tell us to seek after righteousness if it could not be obtained? or if it was just a byproduct of salvation? Wouldn't He have just said to seek after salvation?

By the by, great post Ben.