Eteral life is impossible to retract.

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
ok folks, back on topic now.

who believes eternal life is revocable?

From reading the Scriptures posted by \o/,  I'd say yes.   Or at very least it is forfeitable.   And he/she was completely on topic.

Michelle

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by Miss Shelby
From reading the Scriptures posted by \o/,  I'd say yes.   Or at very least it is forfeitable.   And he/she was completely on topic.
Michelle

Hi Miss Shelby,
I'm curious as to what you think the "incorruptible seed" of 1 Peter 1:23 is.

I think it is the new nature of a Christian, who has been regenerated.

Therefore, if the new nature of a Christian cannot be corrupted (go bad), how can he lose eternal life, which is a gift that Christians already possess?
Remember that Christ himself said that Christians already possess eternal life, not just myself and others here.

 

[DaveKerwin]

My argument would make more sense if it had the terms defined beforehand, showed how the two verses used the same ideas, and also showed more detail about who revokes, and the circumstances around it. I really don't have that much time on my hands, but I could make it work if needed. As far as the argument itself goes, it does follow. The only question is if the terms are used inappropriately. I understand many verses would lead us to believe that we need to work our way towards God's gift of eternal life. But let me remind you of one thing. If it were possible to earn our way to heaven, Jesus would not need to die for us. Bottom line.

 

[Ben johnson]

who believes eternal life is revocable?

It is NOT revocable. "I will NEVER leave you NOR forsake you". (Heb13)

...but it is rejectable. As Miss Shelby eloquently said, "forfeitable".

I'm curious as to what you think the "incorruptible seed" of 1 Peter 1:23 is...

It is exactly what it says it is; let's start from verse 13:

"Gird your minds for action;
keep sober in spirit;
fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus;
do not be conformed to former lusts...
...but be holy in all your behavior...
conduct yourselves in fear during your time, of the One who judges impartially;
knowing you are not ransomed with perisible things but with precious blood of Christ;
for He has foreknown before the foundation of the world who are believers...
since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls,
...for you have not been born again of perishable seed but of imperishable,
that is through the living and abiding word of God, ...the word preached to you."

Voluntary admonishments. Born of imperishable seed, through and because of WILLFUL BELIEF---belief that causes obedience to truth...

Do verses 13-17 even slightly suggest predestination? No.

Are they written as if we are responsible in our approaches and lives?

Yes.

Please read 2Pet1:9-11---verse 11 is "MUTUALLY-EXCLUSIVE"---that is, the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven will be provided in no other way. Does Peter write as though it is POSSIBLE and even likely that one can FORGET FORMER PURIFICATION? Yes.

We must be diligent---to make certain of our "calling and election".

Words that would NEVER have been written, had Peter believed in "predestined-election"...

That-which-is-predestined, carries its own certainty, and does not charge individual responsibility...

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
LightBearer, lets try this one again shall we ??


Philippians 3:10-21

"I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. "

Pressing on Toward the Goal

"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. "



1. Paul has not attained perfection yet, neither have I.
2. Paul presses on heavenward, so do I.
3. Paul tells us to live up to what we have ALREADY attained (God's gift of eternal life).
4. Our citizenship is in heaven. My citizenship is in heaven. I am not trying to get my visa to get there, that is where I was made for, that is where I am a citizen of, and that is where I will be.
5. God will transform us. We will share in his ressurection.

I have full confidence, no doubt at all, that I will be in heaven when God calls. My trust is in Christ.

Now, back to topic, does anyone say God's gift of eternal live is revocable ?

Exactly. And Paul said not untill the ressurection does one get that perfection and along with it the gift of eternal life.


1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:53-57 "For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?”

Jesus himself said "but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. (Matthew 10:22)

Paul also likened the christian course to a race that one must finnish succesfully. 1 Cor 9:24. "Do you not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in sucha way that you may attain it.


Paul, only at the moment of his impending death did he consider he had finnished his christian course successfully and gaind the gift.


2 Timothy 4:6-8 "I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the due time for my releasing is imminent. I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation".

Remember too the warning in Zephaniah 2:3. “SEEK the LORD, all you meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of God’s anger.”

The appeal here is to God's own people.  The probability here does not lay with God failing, but with you.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore Hi Miss Shelby,
I'm curious as to what you think the "incorruptible seed" of 1 Peter 1:23 is.

I think it is the new nature of a Christian, who has been regenerated.

Hi, slave2SinNoMore,

I thought the incorruptible seed referred to Jesus.

Therefore, if the new nature of a Christian cannot be corrupted (go bad), how can he lose eternal life, which is a gift that Christians already possess?
Remember that Christ himself said that Christians already possess eternal life, not just myself and others here.

If you believe that a 'true' Christian cannot turn around and fall away, then you would have to literally be ignoring half of what is written in the New Testament.  

Jesus talked about not denying Him and what would happen if we did.  James talked about not wandering from the faith and so did Peter.   Paul, in several places indicates that we can fall from the faith.  He was even worried about his own salvation when he said that buffets his body and makes it his slave, lest possibly after he'd preached to others he himself  might be disqualified. 

I am not a robot  I am a human.  God wants my love only if I want to give it to Him.

Michelle

 

[DaveKerwin]

I will be the first to admit that any interpretation is possible. Regardless of what we find out on the day of glory, I will follow Christ all my days. Should I run the race till the end, which I am confident will happen, I have nothing to worry about.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
I will be the first to admit that any interpretation is possible. Regardless of what we find out on the day of glory, I will follow Christ all my days. Should I run the race till the end, which I am confident will happen, I have nothing to worry about.

Then I commend you for your positive attitude.

Best regards,

LB.

 

[prodigal]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
ok folks, back on topic now.

who believes eternal life is revocable?

Not me!! Of course I base that on the promises I find in the Word of God:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. Romans 2:7-11

 

[Stormy]

For a Christian , eternal life is now and irrevocable.

But if you do not live your life as Christ has instructed... Are you truly a Christian?

There's the catch!

Matthew 7:21Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? 23Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It is NOT revocable. "I will NEVER leave you NOR forsake you". (Heb13)

...but it is rejectable. As Miss Shelby eloquently said, "forfeitable".

The question is, do you have the right, the power, the authority, opporitinity, or the chance to make such a decision.

I submit you do not. You are not your own. You no longer belong to yourself and hence cannot dertermine for yourself your own fate. You were saved by an act of God, and only God can cause you to lose that salvation. He has said He would never allow that.

The only decision that matters is the one that is going to made by Jesus on "that day". He said He would never leave you or forsake you. I think that settles it in my mind. He did not lie. I know what He is going to say to me and (all who ever believed on Him) on that day.

I think that most folks just do not understand the depth of the salvation that has been set in place for us. It is not something that can be casually discarded. We are more saved than the lost are d@mned. The lost are hopelessly lost. We are more saved than they are lost.

Amen! 

 

[Ben johnson]

The question is, do you have the right, the power, the authority, opporitinity, or the chance to make such a decision.

I submit you do not. You are not your own. You no longer belong to yourself and hence cannot dertermine for yourself your own fate. You were saved by an act of God, and only God can cause you to lose that salvation. He has said He would never allow that.

I miss Netscape. On this laptop tiny fonts make my head hurt. Netscape does not display tiny fonts.

Yes that is the question, if we have the right, the power, the authority, opporitinity, or the chance to make such a decision. And did we have the right, the power, the authority, opporitinity, or the chance to receive salvation in the first place? This is the question behind all of the debates.

What is the NATURE of our salvation?

You no longer belong to yourself, you cannot dertermine for yourself your own fate.
You were saved by an act of God
]only God can cause you to lose that salvation.
He has said He would never allow that.

Can you provide Scriptures for each of these?

 

[Ben johnson]

My sister gave me two gift cerificates. She gave the gift, I just haven't received the goods yet. I have the gift, but it isn't fulfilled yet.

So with eternal life. I have the gift from God, but not the fulfilment of it yet.

What if you get mad at your sis, and in an angry pique you throw away the gift certificate. Will the gift still be fulfilled?

(Ben runs away giggling...)

 

[Andrew]

you already have the gift. whaddya mean its not fulfilled yet??? if you are born again, didn't your spirit get miraculously recreated? didnt you become a new creation in your spirit? didnt you receive the life of God ("he who has the Son has life")? we already have eternal life in us, we're not waiting to get it.

when Jesus and the Father both say "NOTHING (its not no man -- man is in italics ie added) can pluck them out of my hand" why cant we simply believe that?

When Paul says NOTHING can sep us from the love of God, why cant we just believe that?

Why in the world do children of God fight for the right to be disown their heavenly Father?

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by Andrew
you already have the gift. whaddya mean its not fulfilled yet??? if you are born again, didn't your spirit get miraculously recreated? didnt you become a new creation in your spirit? didnt you receive the life of God ("he who has the Son has life")? we already have eternal life in us, we're not waiting to get it.

when Jesus and the Father both say "NOTHING (its not no man -- man is in italics ie added) can pluck them out of my hand" why cant we simply believe that?

When Paul says NOTHING can sep us from the love of God, why cant we just believe that?

Why in the world do children of God fight for the right to be disown their heavenly Father?

Amen, Andrew!

 

[eldermike]

Yep, why would we fight for the right to disown our Father. Amen to that.

In fact, I can fight all I want to but my Father is still my Father. Makes me wonder if adopted children worry about being sent away if they don't act right. I sure hope they don't feel that way. I know I am an adopted son of God and He's not going to send me back even if I don't do what I am supposed to do. But because of His love I will do right by Him, it's my reasonable service.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by lambslove
My sister gave me two gift cerificates. She gave the gift, I just haven't received the goods yet. I have the gift, but it isn't fulfilled yet.

So with eternal life. I have the gift from God, but not the fulfilment of it yet.

Interesting analogy.

You won't receive the goods, however, if you are careless and reckless with your gift certificates and allow them to fall into the trash can.

So with eternal life.  You have the promise from God, but not the fulfillment of it yet.

Michelle

 

[eldermike]

The word adoption. Has anyone any knowledge of this word ever being used in a conditional manner. Is there a culture that used this word to mean a conditional situation?
One more thing about adoption. If I recieve adoption papers on a Child, when is that Child adopted?

 

[\o/]

REV 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

 

[LouisBooth]

Romans 11:29 "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocatble."

In this context i can't see how you can say election is revocable since it is specificlly talking about salvation.