• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Esther and naturalistic explanations

Status
Not open for further replies.

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
476
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟86,155.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
As I understand it Evolution (and the scientific method as a whole) gets some stick as it is seen to remove all reference to God's hand in creation. In the light of that, I was wondering what people's thoughts were on the Book of Esther in the Old Testament.

If we are to oppose evolution becuase it omits reference to God acting in natural history (this one reason among many), how should we approach Esther lacking as it is in any reference to God acing in redemtive history?

regards
Andy
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I understand it Evolution (and the scientific method as a whole) gets some stick as it is seen to remove all reference to God's hand in creation. In the light of that, I was wondering what people's thoughts were on the Book of Esther in the Old Testament.

If we are to oppose evolution becuase it omits reference to God acting in natural history (this one reason among many), how should we approach Esther lacking as it is in any reference to God acing in redemtive history?

regards
Andy

There are lots of good examples of God working in a very naturalistic sense. Esther is a good example.

I think the argument has to be made not the God wills that everything happen as it does -- since there is free will. But rather he does work his purposes through everything. If you get an abnormally high number of green lights going to work, why not thank God?

The crossing of the red sea seemed to involve this in part -- geology provided a land bridge across the cavernous sea.

But, what about Jesus healing the blind man or multiplying the loaves and fishes?


I think one problem YECs see in TE is the TE demand that certain processes of creation be transparent and naturalistic. Naturlistic processes per se are not a problem.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
There are lots of good examples of God working in a very naturalistic sense. Esther is a good example.

I think the argument has to be made not the God wills that everything happen as it does -- since there is free will. But rather he does work his purposes through everything.

So why not deep time? Why not evolution?

I think the problem to the YEC is why we seem to demand that certain processes of creation be transparent and naturalistic.

Funny, my impression of YEC demands is quite the opposite: a demand for miracles and mystery rather than transparent naturalistic processes.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So why not deep time? Why not evolution?

Mainly the plain reading of Genesis. And the scientific consensus is just too full of holes.

Funny, my impression of YEC demands is quite the opposite: a demand for miracles and mystery rather than transparent naturalistic processes.

I went back and fixed the language to clarify.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
I went back and fixed the language to clarify.

Yes, that is more like my perception.

And why should we not demand that creation be transparent to human intelligence?

Christian theology has always linked intelligence to the image of God. Not that the concept of the image of God is limited to intelligence, but it certainly seems incomplete without intelligence, without the rational soul that is able to commune with a rational God who made a universe that is rationally ordered and bound by intelligible natural laws.

I can buy mystery when it comes to the deep counsels of God in such matters as election and redemption. But I see no reason to import it into nature. An intelligible creation for an intelligent creature makes much more sense.

Also note that this is no innovation of TE. It is firmly grounded in Christian theology back to the days of the Fathers. It is assumed throughout Aquinas and eloquently defended by Galileo. It is the axiomatic basis of all scientific work.

To turn one's back on it is to deny that we can have any genuine knowledge of nature at all. And so we are back to last Thursdayism.

An unintelligible universe provides no support for a plain reading of scripture. A plain reading is an intelligible reading, but you have already abandoned the thesis of intelligibility. So the very weapon you seek to wield against evolution turns back on you to undermine your own foundation as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fed
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, that is more like my perception.

And why should we not demand that creation be transparent to human intelligence?

Christian theology has always linked intelligence to the image of God. Not that the concept of the image of God is limited to intelligence, but it certainly seems incomplete without intelligence, without the rational soul that is able to commune with a rational God who made a universe that is rationally ordered and bound by intelligible natural laws.

I can buy mystery when it comes to the deep counsels of God in such matters as election and redemption. But I see no reason to import it into nature. An intelligible creation for an intelligent creature makes much more sense.

Also note that this is no innovation of TE. It is firmly grounded in Christian theology back to the days of the Fathers. It is assumed throughout Aquinas and eloquently defended by Galileo. It is the axiomatic basis of all scientific work.

To turn one's back on it is to deny that we can have any genuine knowledge of nature at all. And so we are back to last Thursdayism.

An unintelligible universe provides no support for a plain reading of scripture. A plain reading is an intelligible reading, but you have already abandoned the thesis of intelligibility. So the very weapon you seek to wield against evolution turns back on you to undermine your own foundation as well.

The list of forbidden knowledge is a long one: 1. judging another person's salvation; 2. familiar spirits; 3. pharmakiea; 4. The time of the Lord's return; 5. biblical "knowledge" (outside of marriage) ;).

While it may not be forbidden per se, what right do we have to demand knowledge of the following: 1. how did Jesus heal; 2. that we see now face to face despite the appearance of seeing in a mirror dimly; 3. how did the Holy Spirit cause Mary to conceive; 4. how is it that one day Saul's army is getting whipped and next day, after calling on the Lord, .Israel is replete with cans of Whoop-A?

Of course, if you are YEC, you also have a problem "knowing" about the billions of years of earth's formation when Genesis says otherwise.

And the word "demand" just plain worries me in such matters.

Aren't we messing with the basis for the fall itself?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually TEs are much more likely to trust in the Lord and lean not on their own understanding. We are much happier knowing that we do not have a full understanding of what scripture means and how God inspired it even though the writers clearly do not understand cosmology or the age of the earth. But God knew what he was doing and we trust him and his scriptures. On the other hand YECs lean very heavily on their own understanding of what they think Genesis and the geocentric passages mean. Just a thought.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
The list of forbidden knowledge is a long one: 1. judging another person's salvation; 2. familiar spirits; 3. pharmakiea; 4. The time of the Lord's return; 5. biblical "knowledge" (outside of marriage) ;).

While it may not be forbidden per se, what right do we have to demand knowledge of the following: 1. how did Jesus heal; 2. that we see now face to face despite the appearance of seeing in a mirror dimly; 3. how did the Holy Spirit cause Mary to conceive; 4. how is it that one day Saul's army is getting whipped and next day, after calling on the Lord, .Israel is replete with cans of Whoop-A?

Notice how none of these things deals with nature and its ordinary processes. "Intelligibility of the universe" is not about having insight into the mysteries of the spirit nor about knowing things for which there is (and often can be) no evidence. The intelligibility of the universe, for example, will not help in struggling with the problem of evil because that conundrum is generated by logic and cannot be undone by logic alone.

Intelligibility is about a relationship that obtains because the Creator of the universe created rationally (Word=Logos=Reason).

It is a relationship of rational order that exists simultaneously in the mind of the Creator, the expression of his Logos/Reason in creation, and the capacity of rationality given to the creature he made in his own image.

The universe at any particular point in time and space may not be known, but it is always knowable because of this intrinsic relationship.

I know you have to take issue with it, because YEC demands that the conclusions of sense and reason be untrue and therefore that sense and reason be unreliable witnesses.

Of course, if you are YEC, you also have a problem "knowing" about the billions of years of earth's formation when Genesis says otherwise.

Only because you have chosen not to accept the testimony of the senses and reasoning capacity which are an endowment of your Creator. Instead you must obfuscate what God made to be transparent and ironically think you do God service thereby.

And the word "demand" just plain worries me in such matters.

Aren't we messing with the basis for the fall itself?

It would probably be better to word it impersonally and say that it is a logical demand of the nature of the Creator that his creation reflect his own rationality. I didn't mean to suggest a wilful personal demand.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I think Assyrian's answer is spot on.

The affirmation of the intelligibility of the universe requires us not to lean on our own understanding, but to accept what is given by the evidence and what can be logically deduced from it in a way that is rationally transparent. It demands humility before the testimony of creation and a refusal to dictate how creation must work.

I am continually astounded at the level of arrogance some (not all) YECs display, particularly in not being able to discern a difference between their own voice and God's voice. It is a YEC demand that scripture say what they believe it ought to say, and if God's creation says differently, then that voice must be stifled by any means necessary. It is a dangerously authoritarian attitude whether one is alleging to be the authority or submitting to another's authority. But having shut out God's created means of knowing, what other basis is there for so-called knowledge?
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Notice how none of these things deals with nature and its ordinary processes. "Intelligibility of the universe" is not about having insight into the mysteries of the spirit nor about knowing things for which there is (and often can be) no evidence. The intelligibility of the universe, for example, will not help in struggling with the problem of evil because that conundrum is generated by logic and cannot be undone by logic alone.

Intelligibility is about a relationship that obtains because the Creator of the universe created rationally (Word=Logos=Reason).

It is a relationship of rational order that exists simultaneously in the mind of the Creator, the expression of his Logos/Reason in creation, and the capacity of rationality given to the creature he made in his own image.

The universe at any particular point in time and space may not be known, but it is always knowable because of this intrinsic relationship.

I know you have to take issue with it, because YEC demands that the conclusions of sense and reason be untrue and therefore that sense and reason be unreliable witnesses.



Only because you have chosen not to accept the testimony of the senses and reasoning capacity which are an endowment of your Creator. Instead you must obfuscate what God made to be transparent and ironically think you do God service thereby.



It would probably be better to word it impersonally and say that it is a logical demand of the nature of the Creator that his creation reflect his own rationality. I didn't mean to suggest a wilful personal demand.



I think Assyrian's answer is spot on.

The affirmation of the intelligibility of the universe requires us not to lean on our own understanding, but to accept what is given by the evidence and what can be logically deduced from it in a way that is rationally transparent. It demands humility before the testimony of creation and a refusal to dictate how creation must work.

I am continually astounded at the level of arrogance some (not all) YECs display, particularly in not being able to discern a difference between their own voice and God's voice. It is a YEC demand that scripture say what they believe it ought to say, and if God's creation says differently, then that voice must be stifled by any means necessary. It is a dangerously authoritarian attitude whether one is alleging to be the authority or submitting to another's authority. But having shut out God's created means of knowing, what other basis is there for so-called knowledge?

I am satisfied with your distinction between reasoning from what you see as opposed to reasoning from the literal Word of God. If Assyrian finds less trust per se in one side of that divide, well, at least we understand each other on what the division is.
 
Upvote 0

artybloke

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
5,222
456
66
North of England
✟8,017.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Politics
UK-Labour
I think you mean a literally interpreted biblical text.

I don't think "literal" applies to the Word of God.
Quite right, as the only Word of God the Bible recognises is Christ, a person, not some 2000 year old ancient writings with about as much relevance to science as any other 2000 year old ancient manuscript.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think you mean a literally interpreted biblical text.

I don't think "literal" applies to the Word of God.

Quite the contrary. You merely beg the question.

Literal text is obvious:

Jesus rose on the third day.

David was annointed King by Samuel.

We can admit that fair minded people are yet full of error in dividing metaphor from narrative. But, the problem is inherent in us, not in the text. Or at least, this is another of those fundamental divisions in approach.

There is much of scripture where I have absolutely no right whatsoever to force upon the text my "interpretation" or even my approval for different "intrepretations".

Let's just ask that question. How could anyone have the right to say the resurrection was not historical narrative or whether it is narrative or not is simply a matter of intrepretation?

Now the idea that people tend to vary might be one argument on these things. But how is that an argument approved of God or approved in the Word itself? I admit that human beings have a dilemma and real trouble in approaching the very idea of something God has spoken. But that fact that there is a problem in people is not license to contradict the Word. That would be sin.

Lets put aside "origins" texts for a moment and our dispute about what they say. My point is simply there are literal texts for which there is no license for simply allegorizing the text. Recognizing them can admittedly be a problem.
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Quite the contrary. You merely beg the question.

Literal text is obvious:

Jesus rose on the third day.

David was annointed King by Samuel.

We can admit that fair minded people are yet full of error in dividing metaphor from narrative. But, the problem is inherent in us, not in the text. Or at least, this is another of those fundamental divisions in approach.
to continue on this logcial progession:

Slavery is allowed and isn't against God's law

Adulterers, disobedient children, homosexuals, and those who work on the sabbath must be put to death.

Do you still think the problem isn't in the text?

There is much of scripture where I have absolutely no right whatsoever to force upon the text my "interpretation" or even my approval for different "intrepretations".

Let's just ask that question. How could anyone have the right to say the resurrection was not historical narrative or whether it is narrative or not is simply a matter of intrepretation?

You don't seem to be very familiar with liberal Chrisitanity.
Why don't they have the right? Just because it's accepted as dogma?

Now the idea that people tend to vary might be one argument on these things. But how is that an argument approved of God or approved in the Word itself? I admit that human beings have a dilemma and real trouble in approaching the very idea of something God has spoken. But that fact that there is a problem in people is not license to contradict the Word. That would be sin.

See, this the problem with YECism: You can't argue unless the Word of God allows it. You already have faith that the Bible is the Word of God, so you can't check to see if the Bible is wrong because you believe that to do so is sinful. Thus evidence from the real world that contradicts the Bible is false a priori.

And then, surprise!, all the "real" evidence supports Biblical creation.

Maybe this helps you have faith, but the rest of us live in the real world, where the physical evidence contradicts parts of the Bible.

Lets put aside "origins" texts for a moment and our dispute about what they say. My point is simply there are literal texts for which there is no license for simply allegorizing the text. Recognizing them can admittedly be a problem.

You still haven't given any good reason why allegorizing the text is sinful. You definitely haven't given any reason why Genesis or any other specific part of the Bible should be interpreted literally.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
to continue on this logcial progession:

Slavery is allowed and isn't against God's law

Adulterers, disobedient children, homosexuals, and those who work on the sabbath must be put to death.

Do you still think the problem isn't in the text?

Yes. But, you need to finish reading the text, which obviously you haven't. See: Jesus, who embodies and fulfills the law for us.


You don't seem to be very familiar with liberal Chrisitanity.
Why don't they have the right? Just because it's accepted as dogma?

Actually, I earned some pretty good grades in liberal Christianity, not to mention eastern religion.
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
Busterdog:

A note. I'm not a scientist. I have no desire to see the word in one way or another. Some theistic evolutionists, like myself, simply see the Genesis account as non-literal for basic literary and exegetical reasons. That frees us up to affirm evolution, but that's merely a sideshow as far as I'm concerned. The main point for me is biblical, not scientific.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Quite the contrary. You merely beg the question.

Literal text is obvious:

Jesus rose on the third day.

David was annointed King by Samuel.

We can admit that fair minded people are yet full of error in dividing metaphor from narrative. But, the problem is inherent in us, not in the text. Or at least, this is another of those fundamental divisions in approach.

Of course the literal text is obvious. That is part of the meaning of "literal".

The literal text is just as obvious in passages such as these:

This is my body which is given for you.

Their vine comes from the vinestock of Sodom, from the vineyards of Gomorrah.

Yet in the first examples we take the literal meaning to be THE meaning and in the second case we do not.

There is much of scripture where I have absolutely no right whatsoever to force upon the text my "interpretation" or even my approval for different "intrepretations".

Let us be clear here. There is no such thing as an uninterpreted text. I am sure you learned this in your biblical studies. When you choose not to accept a figurative interpretation of the text, it does not follow that you are abstaining from interpretation.

You are choosing an interpretation: the literal interpretation as what is, in your opinion, the most suitable one in the context.

Please don't insult my intelligence or yours by claiming this is not an interpretation of the text.

You always have the right to your interpretation by virtue of the fact that it is impossible to read any text without interpreting it.

But, of course, some interpretations are better than others. That is where debate comes in. As for forced interpretations, a literal interpretation may be just as forced as any figurative one.

Let's just ask that question. How could anyone have the right to say the resurrection was not historical narrative or whether it is narrative or not is simply a matter of intrepretation?

Everyone has that right. In some cases adopting a certain interpretation will mean one can no longer portray oneself as a Christian, but everyone has the right to an interpretation.

For a Christian, it is not possible to say that that the resurrection never happened. But it is possible to have some variations in opinion about the details of the event. Have you ever noticed that unlike the events of Jesus' earthly ministry, not a single resurrection appearance is recorded in more than one gospel? And what does it mean that the figure of the resurrected Jesus is so mysterious, sometimes recognizable and sometimes not?

These are really questions for a different thread. The point is that even accepting the resurrection as factual event doesn't mean accepting every account of the resurrection as fully historical. Theology plays as much a role as history in the evangelists' choices of what to present and how to present it.

Now the idea that people tend to vary might be one argument on these things. But how is that an argument approved of God or approved in the Word itself?

No argument about the text can possibly be approved in the text. So the text can give us no guidance as to which argument is approved by God. Hermeneutics is a human enterprise.

I admit that human beings have a dilemma and real trouble in approaching the very idea of something God has spoken.

Maybe, but that is not really the issue. Granting that God has spoken, we still have the task of interpreting what God has said.

But that fact that there is a problem in people is not license to contradict the Word. That would be sin.

But obviously no one considers that their own interpretation is a contradiction. Which interpretation, if any, does contradict the Word is the very matter to be debated.

Lets put aside "origins" texts for a moment and our dispute about what they say. My point is simply there are literal texts for which there is no license for simply allegorizing the text. Recognizing them can admittedly be a problem.

Actually, you could get a strong argument against that from some medieval interpreters who did allegorize pretty much every statement in scripture. But since we are both post-Enlightenment thinkers, we both agree that some texts are best not allegorized just as we both agree that some texts are best not literalized.

So we come back to the same point. When we disagree on which is the best interpretation, what can we bring to the table to help us determine who is right?

Since the text itself cannot guide us to the interpretation of the text, what does?

Here is where I see the great divide between YEC and OEC/TE. The latter believe we can and ought to bring what we know of God's other revelation (created nature) to the table as an interpretive help. YEC denies this, since a priori it denies that science has or even can interpret nature properly. YEC asserts a priori that any interpretation of nature that conflicts with its interpretation of scripture cannot be valid.

This YEC axiom comes down to a denial of what I have been calling the "intelligibility of nature" that is the proposition that God made nature to be knowable to the human mind.

But what is it based on? It is based on the YEC hermeneutic, so any defence of the YEC hermeneutic based on this denial is, in effect, circular reasoning.
 
Upvote 0

elcapitan

Senior Member
Jul 29, 2007
519
36
✟23,347.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Yes. But, you need to finish reading the text, which obviously you haven't. See: Jesus, who embodies and fulfills the law for us.

Jesus never explicitly condemned slavery. In fact, slavery seems to still be allowed in the New Testament: Titus 2:9-10 tells slaves to obey and to please their masters.

Slavery proponents in the 19th century used the Bible to support their view that slavery was justifiable, and abolitionists knew that a literal interpretation supported slavery. Luckily, the abolitionists put reason and their own common sense above the idea that literal interpretation of the Bible is infallible: if God is all-loving and wants us to love our neighbor, then how could we support slavery?

So, I ask you, why should we hold a literal interpretation the creation story to be the infallible Word of God if we do not take a literal interpretaton of the passages on slavery to be the infallible Word of God?
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry for being nasty about reading the new testament.

My point is that the literal reading works quite well. The New covenant is a new covenant.

All those dead OT homosexuals deserved to die by the way.

But then, so do I, but for foregiveness. (Something I am sure I share wiht some of them.)

So where is the problem?

Jesus never explicitly condemned slavery. In fact, slavery seems to still be allowed in the New Testament: Titus 2:9-10 tells slaves to obey and to please their masters.

As opposed to what? Run away and be killed? Start a revolution and crucified? Pretty sound advice.

Slavery proponents in the 19th century used the Bible to support their view that slavery was justifiable, and abolitionists knew that a literal interpretation supported slavery. Luckily, the abolitionists put reason and their own common sense above the idea that literal interpretation of the Bible is infallible: if God is all-loving and wants us to love our neighbor, then how could we support slavery?
If they drop a box of Bibles on a puppy to kill it, that doesn't make the Bible bad.

So, I ask you, why should we hold a literal interpretation the creation story to be the infallible Word of God if we do not take a literal interpretaton of the passages on slavery to be the infallible Word of God?
I did take a literal view of the passages on slavery. It said slaves obey your masters, not masters get more slaves.

Look brother. Here is the pattern that I see very often. There is a convention on what the Bible means that comes out of someone's scholarsihp. And quite often that convention says the Bible is wrong or flawed. And then a guy like means spends 5 minutes on a concordance and the mistaken meaning is debunked. I am not giving you rocket science here. I am saying, who are these people that say they have studied this book? More often than not, the layman proves them wrong. Not always, but often enough. I think this is a cautionary tale.

Anyway:

Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Busterdog:

A note. I'm not a scientist. I have no desire to see the word in one way or another. Some theistic evolutionists, like myself, simply see the Genesis account as non-literal for basic literary and exegetical reasons. That frees us up to affirm evolution, but that's merely a sideshow as far as I'm concerned. The main point for me is biblical, not scientific.

Understood. Many a brother or sister leans that way. I have always maintained that this division is not sufficient to divide anyone from the body of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let us be clear here. There is no such thing as an uninterpreted text.

Of course there is.

I cited them.

The interpretation problem is in us, not in the book. That is why it is exalted above the name of God.

I never denied making a choice. The point is that my capacity to choose, and even my right to choose, such as it is, does not prove that a text isn't clear on its face. And what I said was not that a choice is not made. I said that there are any number of texts for which there is nothing apparent within the text to give a license to allegorize to the exclusion of a literal meaning.

I am choosing to accept a meaning. I call it plain and you something else maybe.

You are choosing apparently to give license for doing something else -- to choose allegory and sumbolism to the exclusion of the literal content of a text. If you are going to take that license, just tell me where it comes from. I think this license comes from the minds of human beings, but not from the text itself.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.