Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Douggg]

It is not negotiable. It happens as part of the resurrection.

So why are you making it an issue that the translation of the living is after the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It IS there , but you are blinded so you cannot see it , Paul did speak of it - THAT IS the Point , but to you if it is not said in a black/white elementary manner you cannot see it - this is a deeper topic that is not leaping off the page , it is a Mystery revealed - It really does not matter if you believe it or not for that will not change the fact that it is there

My bro Paul already tell us what the Mystery of God showing in Revelation 10:7 symbolizes
to those with ears to hear and eyes to see:

Colossians 1:27
to whom God did will to make known what is the riches of the glory of this Mystery among the nations -- which is Christ in ye, the hope of the glory,

Colossians 2:2
that their hearts may be comforted, being united in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the Mystery of God and Father and of the Christ,

BEHOLD!

Revelation 10:7
but in the days of the voice of the seventh Messenger, when He may be about to be trumpeting, also the Mystery of God may be finished,
as He did declare to His own bond-servants, to the prophets.

 

[seventysevens]

But, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. So these are no subjects for your millennium.

LOL people who have already died in Christ and those who are harpazo to meet the Lord in the air can inherit the kingdom as they are not flesh and blood , flesh and blood cannot inherit or be part of the kingdom, a kingdom is a government - hint there have been many kings in the past , before democracy came into being , as in kingdoms of the past there were servants to the king and there were the peasant people that were ruled over by the kingdom

 

[seventysevens]

My bro Paul already tell us what the Mystery of God showing in Revelation 10:7 symbolizes
to those with ears to hear and eyes to see:

sadly some of you brothers refuse to see and refuse to hear anything that is not part of your chosen theology

 

[Dave L]

LOL people who have already died in Christ and those who are harpazo to meet the Lord in the air can inherit the kingdom as they are not flesh and blood , flesh and blood cannot inherit or be part of the kingdom, a kingdom is a government - hint there have been many kings in the past , before democracy came into being , as in kingdoms of the past there were servants to the king and there were the peasant people that were ruled over by the kingdom

The Kingdom is a locality wherever the government exists. Heaven is a locality from where Jesus reigns. It includes earth. It is not of this world (no physical millennium), it is in heaven.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
My bro Paul already tell us what the Mystery of God showing in Revelation 10:7 symbolizes
to those with ears to hear and eyes to see:

sadly some of you brothers refuse to see and refuse to hear anything that is not part of your chosen theology

All of you are my brothers/brethren, we just differ on a few eschatological matters........

 

[seventysevens]

The Kingdom is a locality wherever the government exists. Heaven is a locality from where Jesus reigns. It includes earth. It is not of this world (no physical millennium), it is in heaven.

When Jesus returns in His Parousia He physically comes to earth - hence the term of 2nd coming to earth , He establishes HIS Kingdom on earth , Thy Kingdom come - you don't understand the world is not planet earth- it is the population of people on the planet - not the earth , Jesus comes to this earth and reigns on this earth during the 1000 years that satn is in prison/abyss
The reason satan is in prison is so he cannot deceive any people on earth during the 1000 years , AFTER the 1000 years satan is set free to deceive who he can - Then satan will be cast into the lake of fire and those whom satan deceived will be destroyed
You are ignoring a lot of scripture that plainly reveals this plan of God
Jesus will establish His Kingdom on earth , which will be Jerusalem where all nations are REQUIRED to go up the mountain of GOD to worship the King and if they refuse they will not get any rain fro their crops in the fields- which will make them go up the mountain each year to worship Jesus
After satan and death are destroyed then the new earth happens as satan will not be permitted to exist on the new earth

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When Jesus returns in His Parousia He physically comes to earth - hence the term of 2nd coming to earth , He establishes HIS Kingdom on earth , Thy Kingdom come - you don't understand the world is not planet earth- it is the population of people on the planet - not the earth , Jesus comes to this earth and reigns on this earth during the 1000 years that satn is in prison/abyss....................

Hi ss. Have you and/or others seen my parousia thread?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sia-of-matt-24-showing-in-revelation.7431980/

 

[Dave L]

When Jesus returns in His Parousia He physically comes to earth - hence the term of 2nd coming to earth , He establishes HIS Kingdom on earth , Thy Kingdom come - you don't understand the world is not planet earth- it is the population of people on the planet - not the earth , Jesus comes to this earth and reigns on this earth during the 1000 years that satn is in prison/abyss
The reason satan is in prison is so he cannot deceive any people on earth during the 1000 years , AFTER the 1000 years satan is set free to deceive who he can - Then satan will be cast into the lake of fire and those whom satan deceived will be destroyed
You are ignoring a lot of scripture that plainly reveals this plan of God
Jesus will establish His Kingdom on earth , which will be Jerusalem where all nations are REQUIRED to go up the mountain of GOD to worship the King and if they refuse they will not get any rain fro their crops in the fields- which will make them go up the mountain each year to worship Jesus
After satan and death are destroyed then the new earth happens as satan will not be permitted to exist on the new earth

Is Jesus God? Does God rule over the universe including earth? The the kingdom is here now, centered in heavenly Jerusalem above. It is eternal, not lasting only for 1000 years. The Old Testament symbols of the kingdom, if taken literally force a return to daily animal sacrifices, contrary to Hebrews. The kingdom was to be established in the days of the fourth of Daniel's kingdom visions, which was the Roman Empire. This already happened in the first century.

Here's the lay of the land.

Jesus now sits on David's Throne since his resurrection/ascension Acts 2:29–33. This is the "kingdom" symbolised by the Jewish "Millennial Kingdom" Revelation 20:2 that Jesus said was "at hand" Matthew 3:2, "within you" Luke 17:21, "not of this world" John 18:36 and "comes without observation Luke 17:20, being spiritual in nature.

And one must be born again to see it John 3:3. It is the kingdom many still look for physically in Premillennialism and Dispensationalism even though it has been here unnoticed by them, and in heaven since Pentecost 33 AD. Where Jesus remains on David's Throne/God's Throne 1 Chronicles 29:23 until the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world 1 Corinthians 15:21–26.

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration [New Heavens and Earth] when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28)

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His face the earth and the heavens fled away, and no place was found for them.” (Revelation 20:11)

““When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” (Matthew 25:31)

 

[Douggg]

Where Jesus remains on David's Throne/God's Throne

God's throne in heaven. David's throne on earth.

God is the rightful King of Israel, and was King of Israel accepted by the children of Israel until they demanded a human king like the nations. God ruled Israel with the prophets as His spokesman. But when the Ammonites came against them, they thought they needed a human king instead of Samuel the prophet, to match up.

1Samuel 12:12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.

When God gave them Saul as their king - He stated through Samuel that they (Israel) rejected Him (as their King).

So David's throne is, in that context, here on earth.

The term messiah means anointed, and in the special case of "the" messiah, he is considered to be a descendant of David who will sit on David's throne as King of Israel the united, single nation of the twelve tribes. To lead them and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety. Which Jesus will ultimately fulfill that prophecy when he returns to this earth, as David my servant, in Ezekiel 37.

There have only been three kings in that position in Israel's history. Saul, David, Solomon.

Each of those three were anointed by a prophet. Saul, David, by Samuel. Solomon by Nathan.

This gives some insight regarding the false prophet's activities beyond what it says about him in Revelation - which is post Antichrist role for the first beast when it gets to Revelation 13. Before then, it is almost certain that the false prophet will be the one who anoints the little horn person, following Gog/Magog - as the King of Israel, making the person the Antichrist, for about the first three years, three months of the 7 years.

That "the Christ" son of David was equated to being the King of Israel is in...

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

______________________________________________________________________________

The concept of the Antichrist is that he comes in his own name - someone that God did not send to be their King. And from what is written in Daniel 8 of the little horn magnifying himself in his heart, and Daniel 7 of the bragging mouth, and Daniel 11 about the king thinking he is greater than every god, and in Ezekiel 28:1-10 about him magnifying himself in his heart - the person will have the ego to think of himself as the being the messiah, and later to believe himself that he has achieved God hood.

 

[seventysevens]

Jesus is God , he has rule over the universe including earth- He has ever since HE Created the earth , the heavens and all the universes , like unto you build a 100,000 sq ft mansion with 4 levels and never sell and always have ownership of it , but you allow other people to live in it as you choose to live in another state and you give the renters authority to have rule over the mansion - it is still yours and you can remove the tenants if you want to , but you love the tenants and you decide to choose to move back into that mansion and live with the tenants that you love - get the picture ??

So very much that you seem to ignore or just are not aware of - you seem to RELIGIOUS and not really understand what the TOTALITY of GODS WORD is all about.
God at the beginning with Adam PHYSICALLY walked with Adam and had fellowship with him in Eden a location on earth , at that time God did not live on earth but in a "moment" in time he could visit at any time he chose to , Moment in the Greek is 1/1000 of a second in time -as in a moment a twinkling of the eye
Because Adam disobeyed and sinned God could no longer walk with and fellowship with Adam the way he used to , but it will be the same way again in the future as it was in the past , Jesus created the earth and then gave dominion of it to lucifer , but when he sinned it was taken away and given ti Adam , so satan as the serpent conned beguiled Eve and Adam to sin and the dominion was taken away from Man and given to satan , but Jesus plan is to tarry until all people that will come to love Jesus to happen , when it has been fulfilled all the children of God will in habitat earth , but there is a process that must be fulfilled just as Jesus would always say The Scriptures Must Be Fulfilled , just as refining iron ore , or oil it goes through many processes before the finished product has been refined.

When Jesus returns he will physically reign on this earth , in the future when all is fulfilled regarding this earth , it will be restored to original condition or replaced but we will have our glorified bodies long before the new earth appears because there is yet things to be fulfilled before this earth is changed
You being so religious following what theology teachers say that you totally miss what it is really all about

 

[Dave L]

God's throne in heaven. David's throne on earth.

God is the rightful King of Israel, and was King of Israel accepted by the children of Israel until they demanded a human king like the nations. God ruled Israel with the prophets as His spokesman. But when the Ammonites came against them, they thought they needed a human king instead of Samuel the prophet, to match up.

1Samuel 12:12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.

When God gave them Saul as their king - He stated through Samuel that they (Israel) rejected Him (as their King).

So David's throne is, in that context, here on earth. The term messiah means anointed, and in the special case of "the" messiah, he is considered to be a descendant of David who will sit on David's throne as King of Israel the united, single nation of the twelve tribes. To lead them and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety.

There have only been three kings in that position in Israel's history. Saul, David, Solomon.

Each of those three were anointed by a prophet. Saul, David, by Samuel. Solomon by Nathan.

This gives some insight regarding the false prophet's activities beyond what it says about him in Revelation - which is post Antichrist role when it gets to Revelation 13. Before then, it is almost certain that the false prophet will be the one who anoints the little horn person, following Gog/Magog - as the King of Israel, making the person the Antichrist, for about the first three years, three months of the 7 years.

That "the Christ" son of David was equated to being the King of Israel is in...

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

______________________________________________________________________________

The concept of the Antichrist is that he comes in his own name - someone that God did not send to be their King. And from what is written in Daniel 8 of the little horn magnifying himself in his heart, and Daniel 7 of the bragging mouth, and Daniel 11 about the king thinking he is greater than every god, and in Ezekiel 28:1-10 about him magnifying himself in his heart - the person will have the ego to think of himself as the being the messiah, and later to believe himself that he has achieved God hood.

Jesus cannot sit on David's throne in Jerusalem because of God's curse on Jeconiah. You might want to look into this. It is one reason the Jews rejected Jesus. Also the kingdom is of faith, not by sight. And whatever is not of faith is sin. Many more reasons exist making your position impossible. But these two will suffice for now.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus cannot sit on David's throne in Jerusalem because of God's curse on Jeconiah. You might want to look into this. It is one reason the Jews rejected Jesus. Also the kingdom is of faith, not by sight. And whatever is not of faith is sin. Many more reasons exist making your position impossible. But these two will suffice for now.

Whatever is involved with Jechoniah is a non-issue. Jesus is the messiah, and being God, Jesus is the rightful King of Israel, and Jesus is going to fulfill this prophecy here on earth in the land of Israel, in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

_________________________________________________

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[seventysevens]

Jesus cannot sit on David's throne in Jerusalem because of God's curse on Jeconiah. You might want to look into this. It is one reason the Jews rejected Jesus. Also the kingdom is of faith, not by sight. And whatever is not of faith is sin. Many more reasons exist making your position impossible. But these two will suffice for now.

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/th...on-to-the-genealogy-of-jesus-issues-prophecy/

There is much more , you should learn what is true

 

[Revealing Times]

Its what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies.
People can read the whole Bible and establish the fact that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth.

Or maybe some people were not meant to understand because they are not of God or maybe they are stiff necked like some of the Jews were 2500 years ago. Jesus told his followers that he spoke in parables so that "THE WORLD" hearing would not hear and seeing would not see, but that "HIS PEOPLE(S)" would understand these parables (in the Old Testament, it was more or less riddles via Daniel's Beasts etc.) and thus God doesn't always give us PLAIN SPEAK, we have to figure it out by asking the Holy Spirit to reveal His deep truths unto us.

If the Disciples had of approached the "PARABLES" the way a lot of you guys do these End Time understandings, they would have NEVER asked Jesus any questions at all would they? They would have been telling Jesus what the Parables meant !! Jesus explained the Wheat and the Tares unto them vividly, its a good thing they didn't say, hold up Jesus, here's what it means !! The Wheat is the body of Christ and the Tares are the Wicked and they must grow together until the end. When if you listen, its about the Jews, Jesus is speaking only unto the Jews, we know this if we listen to the Spirit and use COMMON SENSE.

You see, I KNOW the Rapture is pre-trib, but even if it was Mid or Post trib the Church would still leave the Earth so only the Jews stay on the earth with the Tares until the end. Thus the Wheat is Israel and the Tares are the Wicked men of Earth. This is why we must listen to the Spirit instead of having ALL THE ANSWERS all the time !!

There are a LOT OF THINGS you wont see in the Bible without the Holy Spirit showing it unto you.

But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth, they listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers, and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any Judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

Firstly, I have never read any of those people, but those guys who wrote them don't have to be writing "FICTION" as you see it. A Novel is fiction if it has fictional characters in it, but that doesn't mean its CONTENT IS FICTION. There is a big difference in the two. I could write about someone name Diane, Tom and Biffy who are just made up characters, but if I write about the Rapture which is a real event, the book would be published under fiction, but of course the Pre Trib Rapture is not a part of that fiction, even though you might think it is, that in no wise makes it so.

Most Christians understand the Pre Trib Rapture though the bible, you just claim otherwise to try an smear our understanding it seems. Those Alinsky type tactics should be beneath you brother. Stop it already, it only make you look bad to try to CLAIM where SOMEONE ELSE gets their opinions from. These opinions came long before any of these writers you speak of. I see this type of tactic all the time, I am ashamed Christians use them on any side of a debate. i am not going to try and point out writings where you MUST HAVE GOT YOUR OPINIONS FROM....1.) Because what you read is none of my business. 2.) Because you probably got your opinions from the bible, but I still see them as wrongheaded !! But so what, I am not going to investigate your studies or cast aspersions on them, its your business. I don't understand the TACTICS, tbh.

As per the understanding, the Bible is very clear to me, ANYONE.........Jew or not Jew in Christ will be Raptured, so we tell no one that the Jews will have to face anything, that's a MISNOMER from you. Most Jews ARE Blinded until the Rapture, that is JUST A FACT, thus they will go through the Tribulation Period (70th Week which was DESIGNED to get the Jews to REPENT), BUT Messianic Jews will not go through this period of Tribulation will they ? And MORE Gentiles who turn to Christ during this period of time will also go through this Troubled time, but when the Gentiles REPENT they will not be protected, they will pay with their lives. So Messianic Jews can be Raptured to Heaven just like Gentiles in Christ, but the 70th Week is/was Designed by God to get Israel to Repent, and whose business is it to tell God how He should do things ? Not mine or yours or anyone's, that's for sure.

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not.
So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible.
The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

You not understanding it doesn't mean its not there. You have your mind made up and no one could ever tell you any different because YOU THINK YOUR BELIEF IS FACTUAL, but you are wrong, so you can think what you want, until God reveals it unto you I don't guess you will ever see what is easy for me to see. God reveals to those He so desires to I guess.

To tell you the truth it should be far more than 80-85 percent of Christendom that believe in a Pre Trib Rapture, its so elementary it should be 95-100 percent tbh. I don't ever see anyone that is actually IN CHURCH who believes in these Post Trib beliefs, its only on MESSAGE BOARDS, I guess they are there but I never hear from them.

 

[BABerean2]

When Jesus returns he will physically reign on this earth , in the future when all is fulfilled regarding this earth , it will be restored to original condition or replaced but we will have our glorified bodies long before the new earth appears because there is yet things to be fulfilled before this earth is changed
You being so religious following what theology teachers say that you totally miss what it is really all about

When Christ returns "in flaming fire", as found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to burn.

.

 

[Andy centek]

That was in no way Gods wrath , from the beginning God knew humankind would sin , and sin cannot exist in the presence of a Holy God , no animal sacrifice can atone for this sin we are born into , only a PURE SINLESS sacrifice can do that , and there would never ever be a human that is PURE SINLESS to make that sacrifice , so the ONLY way that God could redeem His creation made in the image of Himself is to be the sacrificial Lamb - otherwise he would have to destroy humans altogether - which is exactly what satan wants -
you have shown there is Much you simply do not understand of scripture and the reasons for it

Seventysevens:
In one of your statements you said God can not be in front of evil. Then you had better tell the Holy Spirit that It made a big mistake in causing this verses to be written.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Job_1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job_2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Andy Centek

 

[seventysevens]

Seventysevens:
In one of your statements you said God can not be in front of evil.

I don't recall saying that , where is it ? it was not in what you quoted - you most likely misunderstood what ever you read ,

Isa_45:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

satan was created in the beginning as the most beautiful cherub , highly intelligent know as lucifer - but sin enter into him and he puffed up his pride to think that he would replace his creator and fell from his lofty high ranking position as fast as lighting upon his sin , he now is the accuser of the brethren since God took away his place in Eden and gave it to Adam

 

[seventysevens]

When Christ returns "in flaming fire", as found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to burn.


.

As per typical you don't understand , you so often put the cart in front of the horse ,

 

[keras]

Or maybe some people were not meant to understand

Maybe, but while there is such controversy about the rapture theory, I see them as you are.

The Wheat is the body of Christ and the Tares are the Wicked and they must grow together until the end

Thus the Wheat is Israel and the Tares are the Wicked men of Earth

A serious anomaly here. Typical of the rapturists confusion.

Most Christians understand the Pre Trib Rapture though the bible

How so? No Bible verse says the Lord will take His people to heaven. This false teaching is unbiblical.