Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Biblewriter]

I have heard that one before, yet when actually comparing things though, you're apparently deceived if you think those events fit Esther to a Tee.

But - but- but- didn't you realize that Esther describes Russia, Western Europe, and all the nations of the middle east uniting to invade Israel? And don't worry yourself about the fact that Israel had not been brought back from the sword and settled peacefully in the mountains of Israel at the time of Esther.

 

[Dave L]

If this happened in AD 70, why didn't any Christian writer in the next 200 years (whose writings have survived to the present time) realize it.

Why did all the Christians get out of Jerusalem when they saw it?

 

[DavidPT]

Didn't this happen in 70 AD? And the abomination of desolation in Daniel symbolized the Romans? Just as Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah who symbolized him?

Suppose you are correct. Now suppose you are the ones Jesus was speaking to at the time, thus would be of those whom these things are to involve. In what way did it shed light on what Jesus was meaning about the AOD by going to the book of Daniel? Meaning from their perspective at the time, where they didn't have the benefit of hindsight like we do today? Where in the book of Daniel does it ever specifically mention Romans are going to attack and destroy the city and temple? In hindsight we now know this to be the case, yet they didn't have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

 

[Dave L]

Suppose you are correct. Now suppose you are the ones Jesus was speaking to at the time, thus would be of those whom these things are to involve. In what way did it shed light on what Jesus was meaning about the AOD by going to the book of Daniel? Meaning from their perspective at the time, where they didn't have the benefit of hindsight like we do today? Where in the book of Daniel does it ever specifically mention Romans are going to attack and destroy the city and temple? In hindsight we now know this to be the case, yet they didn't have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

The believers all understood Jesus and left Jerusalem. As a result none perished.

 

[Dave L]

Actually, Revelation 20 does not say who Gog and Magog are. It only says that they will attack "the saints." But your argument contradicts itself. For something that was yet in the future in John's time could not have taken place in Esther's time, which was long before John's time.

No, Gog and Magog were ancient peoples John used as a symbol for the assault on the church.

 

[Biblewriter]

Why did all the Christians get out of Jerusalem when they saw it?

The Christians did not get out of Jerusalem in A. D. 70, but several years earlier, when they first saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. After a short time the armies withdrew and then the Christians left. Several years later, in A.D. 70, the armies returned. This is when the abomination of desolation is alleged to have taken place. But by then it was too late to get out, so the sudden flight advised by Jesus was by then impossible. Everyone still there at that time was either killed or sold into slavery.

 

[Biblewriter]

No, Gog and Magog were ancient peoples John used as a symbol for the assault on the church.

I accept the explicit statements of God above the gross interpretations you try to place upon them.

 

[Dave L]

The Christians did not get out of Jerusalem in A. D. 70, but several years earlier, when they first saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. After a short time the armies withdrew and then the Christians left. Several years later, in A.D. 70, the armies returned. This is when the abomination of desolation is alleged to have taken place. But by then it was too late to get out, so the sudden flight advised by Jesus was by then impossible. Everyone still there at that time was either killed or sold into slavery.

It seems a fair share survived including all the apostles. Many of the 70 show up here and there.

 

[Dave L]

I accept the explicit statements of God above the gross interpretations you try to place upon them.

If you use scripture to interpret scripture, John uses Gog and Magog (long gone) as a symbol of the assault on the church towards the end of the world.

 

[Biblewriter]

It seems a fair share survived including all the apostles. Many of the 70 show up here and there.

Not even one of them was still in Jerusalem in A. D. 70.

 

[Dave L]

Not even one of them was still in Jerusalem in A. D. 70.

Jesus told them to get out of town.

 

[Biblewriter]

If you use scripture to interpret scripture, John uses Gog and Magog (long gone) as a symbol of the assault on the church towards the end of the world.

Gog and Magog are not at all long gone. Gog is a future individual who will be of the land of Magog, which was the Hebrew name for the nation that the Greeks called the Scythians. Their ancient homeland was the grasslands north of the Black Sea, which ran from the eastern Alps to the Ural mountains.

 

[Biblewriter]

Jesus told them to get out of town.

And they obeyed, leaving before the Romans destroyed the city. By A. D. 70, there were no Christians still in Jerusalem.

 

[Dave L]

And they obeyed, leaving before the Romans destroyed the city. By A. D. 70, there were no Christians still in Jerusalem.

Yes, because they understood what Jesus meant by the abomination of desolation.

 

[Biblewriter]

The believers all understood Jesus and left Jerusalem. As a result none perished.

Yes, and they did this years before A. D. 70, when the Preterists incorrectly claim the abomination of desolation took place.

 

[Dave L]

Gog and Magog are not at all long gone. Gog is a future individual who will be of the land of Magog, which was the Hebrew name for the nation that the Greeks called the Scythians. Their ancient homeland was the grasslands north of the Black Sea, which ran from the eastern Alps to the Ural mountains.

Again, silence is golden. Scripture knows nothing of this. But John does in symbolic fashion.

 

[Biblewriter]

Yes, because they understood what Jesus meant by the abomination of desolation.

Jesus very explicitly told them to flee with great haste when they saw the Abomination of Desolation. This hasty flight did not happen. You are ignoring the fact that in another place, Jesus also told them that when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, its desolation was near, so they should leave. But he did not attach panicky haste to that instruction. The Christians withdrew in an orderly fashion, and were long gone when the Romans returned.

As I pointed out before, at the time the abomination of desolation is falsely alleged to have taken place, it was too late to flee, as all exits had been blocked.

 

[BABerean2]

I accept the explicit statements of God above the gross interpretations you try to place upon them.

Except for Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and the other New Covenant scriptures found in the Bible...


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[Biblewriter]

Again, silence is golden. Scripture knows nothing of this. But John does in symbolic fashion.

This is not a testimony of silence, but the united testimony of the ancient writers. You are insisting that your interpretation is correct, without even a scrap of scriptural or historical evidence to back up that interpretation.

But as this has devolved into a childish argument, I am bowing out.

 

[Christambassador1968]

This is true but....often we fail to grasp the meaning of the passage as the Pharisees did. And they ended up believing a lie.

The whole problem with the Pharisees was, they would use the Talmud or oral Torah. Problem is, it was created by human tradition. What could possibly go wrong right? Well when you read the gospels and Jesus states "you have heard it has been said.." Jesus is referring to the oral torah which Christ is saying, " I was there with Moses on the mountain and I DID NOT SAY THAT!" the oral torah, the synagogue have NOTHING to do with the law, it was created during the Babylonian captivity because they didn't have the actual torah with them then. So they created the Talmud(oral torah) and they couldn't have a Temple in Babylon rather, they created the synagogue.