Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Straightshot]

Learn something .... if you can

Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:

36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:

36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:

36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.

36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Now according to the above poster, those who believe this [Revelation 3:10], are just to hung upon the Lord's dealings with His nation of Israel

I don't think you know what you are talking about .... so you interpret the above scriptures for the forum and we will see what you are up to

And I want to see just how you refute the Lord's intents .... give it your best shot

And when you are finished I will ask you to interpret much more on this subject .... since you brought it up and have attempted to link the subject to your idea of standing against the Lord's promise to His true ecclesia [Revelation 3:10]

 

[Douggg]

We need first to define what the mystery of iniquity is .A mystery imply something surnatural.

We know that the man of sin will be revealed in HIS TIME.

We know that the Day of the Coming of Jesus and our Gathering unto Him will happen after
1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting

No, look at what the text says - not the Day of the Coming of Jesus and our Gathering unto him.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day - the Day of Christ. Nothing about the coming of Jesus, nothing about the gathering unto in the text.

1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
3. the Day of Christ begins.

 

[Douggg]

I realize the topic of this thread isn't about the Jews, and yet this subject has come up over and over again as one of the major arguments in favor of a pre-trib rapture; the physical nation of Israel seems to feature heavily in the theory. We all have our various ways of interpreting scripture. Some interpretations will be more accurate than others and there is probably no interpretation yet put forward which is 100% correct, since only God has all understanding of all truth. There's lots of room for doubt and misunderstanding for just about anything related to predicting the future.

I believe this approach toward the flesh Jews indicates a problem with how the pre-tribbers choose to interpret what they see in scripture. Douggg says the Jews (at least some of them, anyway) will become Christians during that time, meaning they will be born again (and presumably this means following Jesus). But isn't that what God wants for all people? Why is there this lingering fascination with the flesh, that the Jews are somehow still special because of their DNA?

When Jesus told the parable of the Samaritan, the lineage or "promises of God" didn't factor into the spiritual lesson at all. It appears that Jesus directly contrasted the Samaritan with a priest and Levite, the people who were definitely recognized as "God's people", and yet the Samaritan was the hero of the story. He was the kind of person God is looking for, not because of his DNA but because of his humble, sincere, loving spirit. It just makes no sense that God would undermine Jesus' teachings by still reserving some kind of speacial favortism for the Jews because of their physical make-up.

I believe this is why people keep using the "promises of God" to defend their position on the specialness of the Jews; they've lost the spirit of the law and instead focus on the letter. They point to the word promise and say, "See, God would never break his promise". They present their case as though God is bound by some kind of legal contract, very rarely questioning whether or not they've really understood the fine print behind the contract. Jesus talked over and over again about the children of the kingdom being cast out, the kingdom being taken from them and giving to those who would make it fruitful, that the children of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham. This last teaching in particular was a direct response to the pharisees who were hiding behind their lineage as though their DNA alone should make them special.

The essence of "Israel" is based on the character of the spirit of the individual. The Children of Israel were punished over and over again for missing it. It simply did not work. The experiment of trying to find "Israel" through association and special allocation of DNA simply did not work. Being a part of the "correct group" did not create loyalty to God. Having the correct DNA, or the correct religion, or a holy building did not guarantee faithfulness.

This is at least part of the higher revelation of God that Jesus came to bring. "God's people", as determined through correct affiliation or other physical criteria was over. All the promises to Abraham (and by extension his people) were fulfilled in Jesus. God looks at the heart now; not DNA.

If the pre-tribbers can get it so wrong about such a fundamental issue like the flesh vs the spirit, then maybe they've got it wrong about suffering for faith vs running away.

After the rapture takes place, there will be other persons, multitudes, saved during the great tribulation - other than Jews. But your argument is going about it the wrong way.

The Jews, Israel, will miss the rapture because they will believe at the time the person, the Antichrist, is their messiah, and he will have been anointed King of Israel - that's what techniclally makes the person "the Antichrist", until he betrays them and reveals himself to be the man of sin.

Christians (both of Jewish and Gentile background according to the flesh) will be raptured out of the world before the man of sin comitts the act of betrayal, the transgression of desolation.

Following the rapture and the betrayal, here on earth, the Jews, Israel, and multitudes of people from all tongues, peoples, and nations will embrace Jesus as messiah and savior, during the great tribulation that ensues.

They will be persecuted for their belief and many will be martyred; and are the ones in heaven in Revelation 7, as having coming out of the Great Tribulation.

 

[miknik5]

The Lord and His holy spirit are one .... not disconnected

And He is the restrainer against Satan

When the Lord immortalizes His true ecclesia He will then lower His restraint and allow Satan to rage upon the earth significantly unbridled for a short time [Revelation 12]

3 and 1/2 years isn't going to be short enough when GOD is no longer holding all things back

We have no understanding of all that HE has held back even by HIS everyday GRACE upon all men

 

[Straightshot]

His withdrawal if restraint will come at the beginning of the tribulation allowing for Satan to rage unbridled in many ways upon the earth for 2520 days .... then the Lord will force him to Armageddon and destroy his minions in 30 days .... then He is going to lock him up for a long time

 

[miknik5]

Learn something .... if you can

Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:

36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:

36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:

36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.

36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Now according to the above poster, those who believe this [Revelation 3:10], are just to hung upon the Lord's dealings with His nation of Israel

I don't think you know what you are talking about .... so you interpret the above scriptures for the forum and we will see what you are up to

And I want to see just how you refute the Lord's intents .... give it your best shot

And when you are finished I will ask you to interpret much more on this subject .... since you brought it up and have attempted to link the subject to your idea of standing against the Lord's promise to His true ecclesia [Revelation 3:10]

GOD is doing all things for the glory of HIS NAME and to manifest/show/declare HIS NAME as Holy amongst all nations

And there is only ONE who came forth from GOD and had all authority to show/declare/reveal/manifest THE FATHER

And HIS TRUE BODY/CHURCH/BRIDE recognize HIM as THE HEAD/THE FOUNDATION/THE BRIDEGROOM

 

[miknik5]

His withdrawal if restraint will come at the beginning of the tribulation allowing for Satan to rage unbridled in many ways upon the earth for 2520 days .... then the Lord will force him to Armageddon and destroy his minions in 30 days .... then He is going to lock him up for a long time

That doesn't sound right

Where does the 1000 year reign fall in your 2520 day period?

 

[Riberra]

No, look at what the text says - not the Day of the Coming of Jesus and our Gathering unto him.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day - the Day of Christ. Nothing about the coming of Jesus, nothing about the gathering unto in the text.

1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
3. the Day of Christ begins.

You have been mislead to believe that the Day of Christ means the Tribulation.
The Day of Christ means The Coming Of Jesus as a thief Revelation 16:15 and the destructive events associated to His Coming.The 7Th vial being poured out (Revelation 16:17) is associated to the Coming of Jesus, it is the destruction of all the cities of the world by the earthquake such as never was Revelation 16:17-21...also included is The judgement and destruction by fire coming from heaven against Great Babylon ...
and finally Jesus defeating His enemies at the battle of Armageddon are all part of the events during the Day of Christ.

 

[Psalm3704]

The Day of Christ means The Coming Of Jesus as a thief Revelation 16:15 and the destructive events associated to His Coming.

And in one of His two coming stages, He comes when the world will chant "peace and safety." This is not during the tribulation nor immediately after.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.​

.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The Jews, Israel, will miss the rapture because they will believe at the time the person, the Antichrist, is their messiah,

Fair enough conclusion. But it won't be only Jews who miss the rapture. Other people will miss it because they are lazy, or proud, or greedy, or self righteous, or hypocrites; there's any number of reasons why people will miss the rapture. I'm still trying to figure out, from your argument, where you feel the need to make special mention of the Jews. How are they different to any other human being who, for one reason or another, rejects Jesus?

Christians (both of Jewish and Gentile background according to the flesh) will be raptured out of the world before the man of sin comitts the act of betrayal, the transgression of desolation.

If this is true, then at least from God's perspective there is no respect to persons in how he decides who to gather, whether they have Israeli DNA or not, which again begs the question; why do people keep making a big deal about the Jews in the end time if being gathered together depends on faith in Jesus rather than correct DNA?

I'm not sure if you've said it as clearly as straighshot, but his position appears to be that the Great Tribulation is specifically directed at unbelieving Jews and that it will be more than just tribulation; it will actually be wrath, which means there's more than just spanking for the sake of repentance happening; God's wrath is meant to destroy, not turn.

Jesus is the door; any one promoting any other way to be right with God is a thief and a liar, and that must include the idea that Jews can somehow still be right with God just because they have the correct DNA. If you say that, no, it's not the DNA which makes them right but rather that they also must accept and follow Jesus, then no longer is their Jewish heritage any issue regarding their relationship with God. If Jesus is the door then it is no longer appropriate to interpret any part of prophecy based on OT values regarding what it means to be "God's people".

Anyway, it seems I've not got a clear understanding of how you see flesh Israel fitting into all of this, but based on your comments I get the impression that you believe their DNA is somehow still a significant part of prophecy. If that is the case, perhaps you can respond in a way which accounts for my comments so far. Thanks.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

If a Messianic Jew ever got the wind that you (SS) said, they will be subject to the great fall, I don't want to be around!!! Hebrews know Mashiach way better than you could ever think or possibly imagine. I have a feeling they will be subject to the persecutions under the times of the Gentiles and they are the one who will have seal of the Lamb... so please, with all due diligence don't ever mention Israel in such a goading context, they are the LORD's! PERIOD!

 

[Endtime Survivors]

they are the LORD's! PERIOD!

Everyone is the Lord's. Or, if you say, "no, only those who follow and acknowledge God are "The Lords"" then that must exclude at least some Jews, in which case it's not their Jewish heritage which makes people "The Lords" but rather their faith and obedience.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

I find this logic so strange. The idea of the rapture equating to "going up" has nothing to do with when the going up happens.

 

[Postvieww]

You are making a wrong presumption that the Day of Christ is the day of the gathering unto him (the rapture). So you read the two events (1) the falling away (2) the transgression of desolation by the man of sin - that take place before the Day of Christ, and ..... the rapture cannot happen before those two things because the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture ! That's your thinking. But it is wrong.

Look at verse 6 carefully. The rapture of the church takes place before the man of sin is revealed in his time. That is "what witholdth" that he might be revealed in his time. It is not saying in verse 6 what withholdth the Day of Christ (in your equating the Day of Christ as the day of the gathering) in the text.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

________________________________________________________
2thessalonians2 informs several things... the order can be taken two ways.

1. the great falling away
2. the rapture
3. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
4. the Day of Christ begins

1. the rapture
2. the great falling away
3. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
4. the Day of Christ begins

2 Thessalonians 2 is “the day of Christ” the tribulation?


1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Verse 1 is 1 event not 2. Our gathering is at His coming. This is the same gathering and coming as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is the day of His coming and our gathering. In the context of verse 1 verse 2 is referring to the same day. That day is the topic of discussion.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This day is not the day of the tribulation it is the day of redemption , the day of His coming , The day of our gathering. No tie whatsoever to the tribulation.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not one hint of this day referring to the tribulation. We will be found blamless when He comes for us not when the tribulation starts.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Not one hint of tribulation in this passage. The work begun in us will continue until He comes for us that is absolulty the Day of Christ.

Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Not one hint of tribulation in this passage. This passage refers also to His coming for us.

Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Paul is not talking about rejoicing in the day of tribulation.

The day of Christ is not the tribulation period nor the first day of the tribulation. There is no corroborating scripture to support that narrative.

You if you want to stand firmly by your claim “the day of Christ” in 2 Thess 2:2 is the tribulation you need to come up with something from scripture to dispute what Paul wrote in these other passages.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day is the Day of Christ, the day of His coming and the day of our gathering. There is no scriptural president for saying the day of Christ is the tribulation.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

It is extremely unlikely Paul would refer to Jesus as “what” when he refers to Christ by name in verses 1,2 & 8

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

There is no way grammatically, or with sound exegesis to make the first “he” a different he than the second “he”

Who or whatever the first “he” is also the second “he”.

To say “he” number 1 is Jesus and number 2 “he” is his body the church has no scriptural support.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This coming is the same coming in verse 1.

2 Thessalonians 2 is and always has been the death nail in the pretrib coffin your attempt to redefine what Paul said does not come close to doing so. Until you back up your claim for the “day of Christ” the rest of the theory fails.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

This is all I'm saying, tribulation is meant for everyone and no one is escaping it including the Jews but sidelining the Tribulation as if it would be for the unbelieving Jews it makes it a little bit difficult to take it up as a revelation to anything. Therefore, simply because we are believers doesn't give us a right to saying anything on the unbelieving Hebrews.

[I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow a arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.]

:/

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Which churches do you go to??? How is the day of our LORD in anyway, GT??? Day of our LORD is when the first resurrection takes place and followed by everyone who'll be alive in Christ will be taken up!!! You make it come out like Jesus is somewhere passing toasts to GT tribulants and you also seem to be passing toasts of how you will be saved from the GT as the suffering unbelieving world is going through HELL!!! or Are you?

 

[Straightshot]

How is the day of our LORD in anyway, GT???

Do you have a Bible? .... if so then you should read it

The day of the Lord
[Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5,30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5 Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:17; 16:14]
.

 

[Revealing Times]

If this is true, then at least from God's perspective there is no respect to persons in how he decides who to gather, whether they have Israeli DNA or not, which again begs the question; why do people keep making a big deal about the Jews in the end time if being gathered together depends on faith in Jesus rather than correct DNA?

I'm not sure if you've said it as clearly as straighshot, but his position appears to be that the Great Tribulation is specifically directed at unbelieving Jews and that it will be more than just tribulation; it will actually be wrath, which means there's more than just spanking for the sake of repentance happening; God's wrath is meant to destroy, not turn.

The Great Tribulation is Gods wrath against man-kind, not just Jews, as the Canaanites and those living in the days of Noah found out, when Gods wrath gets fill, watch out. But the "Scriptures or prophecies" of the Old Testament only deal with Israels happenings during this time period, even Jesus' prophesies deal with Israel, until Revelation (after his Death & Resurrection). The Great Tribulation will bring Israel back to the Father God, who will welcome them home like the prodigal son. It is the Blood of Jesus, nothing else matters, to be protected Israel has to accept their Messiah.

If a Messianic Jew ever got the wind that you (SS) said, they will be subject to the great fall, I don't want to be around!!! Hebrews know Mashiach way better than you could ever think or possibly imagine. I have a feeling they will be subject to the persecutions under the times of the Gentiles and they are the one who will have seal of the Lamb... so please, with all due diligence don't ever mention Israel in such a goading context, they are the LORD's! PERIOD!

They rejected God in the Flesh (Jesus) and 95 percent still do not accept Jesus, so I wouldn't say they know the Messiah that well at all. They were/are still looking for the Conquering King, but first they have to accept the Suffering Servant, and they will. As soon as the Rapture happens, Israel will put it together, all of these "Christians" bodies were left behind, and their bible said this would happen, they put off corruption, and put on incorruption in the twinkling of an eye. They will know Messiah, but they have to swallow their pride in desperation.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

1 Thessalonians 4
[Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.]

The problem with (pre) is that you seem to say the resurrection has either taken place or Rev 20.4 is going to happen before Ch.6. If I were to be asked, someone is afraid of going through hell and it's normal. That's all!

 

[miknik5]

How is the day of our LORD in anyway, GT???

Do you have a Bible? .... if so then you should read it

The day of the Lord
[Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5,30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5 Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:17; 16:14]
.

I am waiting for a response from you
Your post about Satan reigning 2520 years does not sound right since we know that he will be bound 1000 years and that during this time of peace, the saints will reign, that is those who had a part in the first resurrection, Until Satan is let loose one more time to gather those who think themselves to be "kings" for the great battle