Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Endtime Survivors]

You need to go back and edit and put a comma after Lord.

Ha ha "the Lord Douggg". Good one

 

[Postvieww]

The person who does the restraining is also allowing the mystery of iniquity to be at work in the world.

So we are in this circular discussion, Jesus has all power so it must be Him. Actually the text does not say the person restraining is allowing, that is assumed. It simply says it is at work. We can agree to disagree on this point. I do appreciate debate with you without theatrics. Thank you for that.

 

[Douggg]

So we are in this circular discussion, Jesus has all power so it must be Him. Actually the text does not say the person restraining is allowing, that is assumed. It simply says it is at work. We can agree to disagree on this point. I do appreciate debate with you without theatrics. Thank you for that.

I don't think it is a circular discussion because the "what withholdeth" in verse 6 of the man of sin being revealed "in his time", is that the rapture of Christians has to take place first. And that the mystery of iniquity already at work in the world till he (Jesus's body, Christians) taken out of the way in verse 7 is confirmation of "what witholdeth" in verse 6.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Now people were raptured into Oblivion!!! I don't mind that, may you be found!

Parallels
1 a. Luke 21 [And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived. Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. Those in Jerusalem must get out, and those out in the country should not return to the city. For those will be days of God’s vengeance, and the prophetic words of the Scriptures will be fulfilled. How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. For there will be disaster in the land and great anger against this people. They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.]

b. Revelation 11 [I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” They are “the two olive trees” and the two lamp stands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.]

2 a. Luke 21 [And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on a cloud with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!”]

Revelation 16 (The Last Bowl/Plague) [Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.]

Jesus Appears in Revelation 20 to take up the Church.

Please remember that after the seals and the trumpets

Revelation 13 ["If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.]

Revelation 14 [This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”]

Well, we've been asked to be patient and here we are:

Revelation 14 [Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.]

The only ones who never faced the trumpets predicaments were the sealed, I don't know about Christians but I know, Post Tribulation pips are likely to be more right than wrong!!!

 

[Postvieww]

I don't think it is a circular discussion because the "what withholdeth" in verse 6 of the man of sin being revealed "in his time", is that the rapture of Christians has to take place first. And that the mystery of iniquity already at work in the world till he (Jesus's body, Christians) taken out of the way in verse 7 is confirmation of "what witholdeth" in verse 6.

You’ve yet to explain how the Church can be raptured before the 2 events that must happen before the Church is raptured. See, it is circular we always end up where we started. That day, of our gathering will not happen ”except” something happens first. It’s tied to definitions of words and phrases and you see them differently than I and there really is no resolution, when we can’t agree on those definitions. In that respect it is a circular discussion with no resolution. It’s not resolved by you saying you are right and me claiming the same.

 

[miknik5]

None of the Lord's angels have the trappings to stand against this devil except the Lord .... not one

[Isaiah 14:12-27; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Daniel 10:5-14]

The contest is between the Lord and the ancient serpent [Genesis 3]

Your own logic fails against the Lord's revealings .... and you view lacks enough scripture and correct rendering to throw you off course

.... then you give your opinions without full context

I was detained 21 days and no one helped ME but Michael the prince of your people?

What do you say about this?

 

[miknik5]

When does Michael start doing his restraining ? There is not even a temple built that the man of sin can go into, sit, and claim to be God.

What is the purpose of Michael restraining the man of sin from committing the act?

It isn't Michsel who is the restrainer


It is The HOLY SPIRIT who will be taken out if the way so that sin and sinfulness will be unrestrained

While HE is in the world HE convicts the world of sin

But when HE is taken out of the way. No one has any restrainer convicting them of their sons and sinful acts so that evil has full reign

Temporarily

 

[Straightshot]

The Lord and His holy spirit are one .... not disconnected

And He is the restrainer against Satan

When the Lord immortalizes His true ecclesia He will then lower His restraint and allow Satan to rage upon the earth significantly unbridled for a short time [Revelation 12]

 

[Linet Kihonge]

When did the HS leave the world? Since when does the Holy Spirit leave his Children when they needed him the Most.

"Luke 21 [But before all this occurs, there will be a time of great persecution. You will be dragged into synagogues and prisons, and you will stand trial before kings and governors because you are my followers. But this will be your opportunity to tell them about me. So don’t worry in advance about how to answer the charges against you, for I will give you the right words and such wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to reply or refute you! Even those closest to you—your parents, brothers, relatives, and friends—will betray you. They will even kill some of you]

Assuming the LORD was speaking for such a time as these!!! Take heed lest you fall into temptation

 

[Straightshot]

People have a hard time grasping the fact that the Lord is here now .... He is everywhere in His universe at the same time .... He is omnipresent [Revelation 5:5; 5:6] .... He has no boundaries

He does not have to come and go .... what He does is appear and disappear

 

[Douggg]

It isn't Michsel who is the restrainer


It is The HOLY SPIRIT who will be taken out if the way so that sin and sinfulness will be unrestrained

While HE is in the world HE convicts the world of sin

But when HE is taken out of the way. No one has any restrainer convicting them of their sons and sinful acts so that evil has full reign

Temporarily

The Holy Spirit being taken out of the way is a classical argument made for Christians to be removed from the earth.

Christians will be removed before the man of sin commits the act. But the Holy Spirit taken out of the way is the wrong argument.

The Holy Spirit will be in world leading people to Jesus all the way through the 7 years. Israel during that time will become Christians, which means that they will borne again, by the Holy Spirit, when they embrace Jesus. And in part, the judgements of God are to get men to turn away from sin, although they will refuse.

Revelation 16:
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Douggg]

You’ve yet to explain how the Church can be raptured before the 2 events that must happen before the Church is raptured.

You are making a wrong presumption that the Day of Christ is the day of the gathering unto him (the rapture). So you read the two events (1) the falling away (2) the transgression of desolation by the man of sin - that take place before the Day of Christ, and ..... the rapture cannot happen before those two things because the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture ! That's your thinking. But it is wrong.

Look at verse 6 carefully. The rapture of the church takes place before the man of sin is revealed in his time. That is "what witholdth" that he might be revealed in his time. It is not saying in verse 6 what withholdth the Day of Christ (in your equating the Day of Christ as the day of the gathering) in the text.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

________________________________________________________
2thessalonians2 informs several things... the order can be taken two ways.

1. the great falling away
2. the rapture
3. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
4. the Day of Christ begins

1. the rapture
2. the great falling away
3. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
4. the Day of Christ begins

 

[Riberra]

You are making a wrong presumption that the Day of Christ is the day of the gathering unto him (the rapture). So you read the two events (1) the falling away (2) the transgression of desolation by the man of sin - that take place before the Day of Christ, and ..... the rapture cannot happen before those two things because the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture ! That's your thinking. But it is wrong.

Look at verse 6 carefully. The rapture of the church takes place before the man of sin is revealed in his time. That is "what witholdth" that he might be revealed in his time. It is not saying in verse 6 what withholdth the Day of Christ (in your equating the Day of Christ as the day of the gathering) in the text.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

________________________________________________________
2thessalonians2 informs several things... the order can be taken two ways.

1. the great falling away
2. the rapture
3. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
4. the Day of Christ begins

1. the rapture
2. the great falling away
3. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
4. the Day of Christ begins

Do you take your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2
from the Scofield Reference Bible ? It is mostly similar and wrong because it does not take into account verse 1 who tie our gathering to the Coming Of Jesus. In clear verse 1 tell us that our gathering unto Jesus will happen in the Day of Christ ie at His Coming.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/scofield-reference-notes/isaiah/isaiah-2.html#isa2_12

 

[Douggg]

Do you take your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2
from the Scofield Reference Bible ?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/scofield-reference-notes/isaiah/isaiah-2.html#isa2_12

no. That link was the first time I have even seen Scofield reference notes.

Riberra, no matter what rapture timing view, we all agree on this...right?

1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
3. the Day of Christ begins.

Now what do you do with verse 6 ? "What witholdeth" has to be before item 2 above.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

[Riberra]

no. That link was the first time I have even seen Scofield reference notes.

Then that mean that your Church or whomever pastor use the Scofield reference Bible in the interpretation of scripture but just don't tell you.

Do you know that Scofield use the interpretation of scripture made by John Nelson Darby ?

 

[Riberra]

no. That link was the first time I have even seen Scofield reference notes.

Riberra, no matter what rapture timing view, we all agree on this...right?

1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
3. the Day of Christ begins.

Now what do you do with verse 6 ? "What witholdeth" has to be before item 2 above.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

verse 1 tie our gathering to the Coming Of Jesus. In clear verse 1 tell us that our gathering unto Jesus will happen in the Day of Christ ie at His Coming.

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

verse 1 tie our gathering to the Coming Of Jesus. In clear verse 1 tell us that our gathering unto Jesus will happen in the Day of Christ ie at His Coming.

Riberra, you are going into zombie land on me...

You are not addressing what I wrote. Verse 6.

Riberra, no matter what rapture timing view, we all agree on this...right?

1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
3. the Day of Christ begins.

Now what do you do with verse 6 ? "What witholdeth" has to be before item 2 above.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


.

 

[Douggg]

Then that mean that your Church or whomever pastor use the Scofield reference Bible in the interpretation of scripture but just don't tell you.

Do you know that Scofield use the interpretation of scripture made by John Nelson Darby ?

I don't use Scofield and don't know who does, and I am not parroting some pastor.

 

[Riberra]

Riberra, you are going into zombie land on me...

You are not addressing what I wrote. Verse 6.

Riberra, no matter what rapture timing view, we all agree on this...right?

1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting
3. the Day of Christ begins.

Now what do you do with verse 6 ? "What witholdeth" has to be before item 2 above.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

We need first to define what the mystery of iniquity is .A mystery imply something surnatural.

We know that the man of sin will be revealed in HIS TIME.

We know that the Day of the Coming of Jesus and our Gathering unto Him will happen after
1. the great falling away
2. the man of sin's act of claiming to be God, going into the temple sitting

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The Holy Spirit will be in world leading people to Jesus all the way through the 7 years. Israel during that time will become Christians, which means that they will borne again, by the Holy Spirit, when they embrace Jesus. And in part, the judgements of God are to get men to turn away from sin, although they will refuse.

I realize the topic of this thread isn't about the Jews, and yet this subject has come up over and over again as one of the major arguments in favor of a pre-trib rapture; the physical nation of Israel seems to feature heavily in the theory. We all have our various ways of interpreting scripture. Some interpretations will be more accurate than others and there is probably no interpretation yet put forward which is 100% correct, since only God has all understanding of all truth. There's lots of room for doubt and misunderstanding for just about anything related to predicting the future.

I believe this approach toward the flesh Jews indicates a problem with how the pre-tribbers choose to interpret what they see in scripture. Douggg says the Jews (at least some of them, anyway) will become Christians during that time, meaning they will be born again (and presumably this means following Jesus). But isn't that what God wants for all people? Why is there this lingering fascination with the flesh, that the Jews are somehow still special because of their DNA?

When Jesus told the parable of the Samaritan, the lineage or "promises of God" didn't factor into the spiritual lesson at all. It appears that Jesus directly contrasted the Samaritan with a priest and Levite, the people who were definitely recognized as "God's people", and yet the Samaritan was the hero of the story. He was the kind of person God is looking for, not because of his DNA but because of his humble, sincere, loving spirit. It just makes no sense that God would undermine Jesus' teachings by still reserving some kind of speacial favortism for the Jews because of their physical make-up.

I believe this is why people keep using the "promises of God" to defend their position on the specialness of the Jews; they've lost the spirit of the law and instead focus on the letter. They point to the word promise and say, "See, God would never break his promise". They present their case as though God is bound by some kind of legal contract, very rarely questioning whether or not they've really understood the fine print behind the contract. Jesus talked over and over again about the children of the kingdom being cast out, the kingdom being taken from them and giving to those who would make it fruitful, that the children of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham. This last teaching in particular was a direct response to the pharisees who were hiding behind their lineage as though their DNA alone should make them special.

The essence of "Israel" is based on the character of the spirit of the individual. The Children of Israel were punished over and over again for missing it. It simply did not work. The experiment of trying to find "Israel" through association and special allocation of DNA simply did not work. Being a part of the "correct group" did not create loyalty to God. Having the correct DNA, or the correct religion, or a holy building did not guarantee faithfulness.

This is at least part of the higher revelation of God that Jesus came to bring. "God's people", as determined through correct affiliation or other physical criteria was over. All the promises to Abraham (and by extension his people) were fulfilled in Jesus. God looks at the heart now; not DNA.

If the pre-tribbers can get it so wrong about such a fundamental issue like the flesh vs the spirit, then maybe they've got it wrong about suffering for faith vs running away.