Errors of Calvinism in Man-Centered Temporal Limits on God

[Rick Otto]

Laura, you are definitely fun to talk to.
It's gettin' late for now, but I'll be back, sis!
Thanks for an entertaining and informative discussion.

 

[Laura Lee]

Laura, you are definitely fun to talk to.
It's gettin' late for now, but I'll be back, sis!
Thanks for an entertaining and informative discussion.

Hi Rick, ,

Looking forward to the discussion when you are rested. I did this as a "new post"... here... but will add to this discussion for you.

*******
The Vitality of Eternal Vision & Thought

A temporal, earthbound, man-focused perspective will blind us to the gospel story as God has written it in the Bible. We must step into an eternal position with Jesus Christ and God the Father to gain the Heavenly perspective. Then, our focus shifts from man in flesh on earth in time to seeing the spiritual level of the things unseen of Heaven and eternal glory.

The Bible tells us to let the mind which was in Christ be our mind.

To many, the story started in mankind. God created Adam, then Eve. Adam and Eve were tempted, ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and all mankind fell in Adam. That’s where they start the story: in mankind in Adam, his creation, and his fall.

Adam is the starting point of so much preaching and teaching today, and so much systematic theology. Systematic theology is, in simplest terms, how people put the story together line upon line and precept upon precept. But, starting all our thoughts in Adam on earth in time in flesh is not the view of God or the larger testimony of scripture.

The eternal vision of God saw and planned all before the earth and mankind were created. God’s plan was planned in full before time as we know it began. God’s purpose and grace in Jesus Christ was given to us before the world began according to His power and love; not according to our works. What God would do for us through Jesus had nothing to do with our works. God’s will and plan had everything to do with His own purpose and grace born of His own character, goodness, and Divine Love. Heaven, and God’s plan being carried out in this temporal creation, is not fueled or filled by our works but rather by the contents of God’s Heart.

2 Timothy 8:8-10 “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

Reality is eternal.

Can we see Eternity? Can we see past Adam in time on earth in flesh in the Garden of Eden to see Jesus before the world began? Can we break central focus on mankind and turn our eyes to Jesus as we see God’s eternal purpose and plan worked out in and through Jesus in this temporal Genesis first creation? The scripture is calling us to think eternally as we think of things above not of earth.

The Bible tells us again and again to seek God’s face with all of our hearts. When our hearts can see Eternity free of temporal thinking, then our whole hearts will have power to see the face of Jesus fully.

The strongholds of Satan blind us to the Light of the face of Jesus. Satan keeps us trapped in a temporal system of thought that thinks of things below and the things of man. We must care for the things of God from above, not the things of man.

We may not realize it yet, but when we think temporally we are thinking thoughts centered in ourselves in time on earth in flesh. To begin a system of biblical thinking in Adam in time on earth in flesh is, quite basically, a self-centered view of reality in which we think about ourselves and the things of man.

A theological system that begins in Adam in time on earth in flesh is inherently a temporal system of thought that cannot comprehend the eternal whole counsel plan of God.

To begin one’s thoughts with either “God gave mankind free will” or “all mankind fell in Adam” will develop a temporal system of theology that explains man’s experience on earth as the earthly revelation… but it will not comprehend the Heavenly revelation or explain God’s eternal whole counsel plan.

Peter was thinking temporally and carnally of the things of man, not eternally and spiritually with the mind of Christ of the things of God. Jesus gave Peter to know he was in the wrong spirit.

Matthew 16:21-23 “From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying, ‘Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.’ But He turned and said unto Peter, ‘Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men’.”

We must know what Jesus knew and understand what Jesus understood so that we can walk as Jesus walked. Jesus Christ was not thinking “moment by moment” seeing nothing of God in Eternity. Jesus Christ was not thinking “day by day” with no concept of a predestined plan for His life on earth. .

Jesus came to do the will of the Father with an understanding of the predestined will of God for His life. Jesus knew He came from above. Jesus knew He would go to the cross, die a death to sin, the flesh, this world, and the devil, then rise again to ascend to the right hand of God the Father. Jesus knew He was returning to destroy all evil, make all things new, and deliver up the Kingdom to His Father when New Jerusalem came down from Heaven.

Jesus came from Heaven where He saw the original blueprint of the Genesis creation: the Heaven and earth above us where New Jerusalem is presently seated. When Jesus was sent to create the Genesis creation, Jesus knew God was recreating the Heaven and earth that is presently above us. Jesus Christ knew that the first Genesis creation He created would be destroyed at Omega, then recreated anew as the perfect reproduction of the original Heaven and earth presently above us.

Jesus Christ was fully aware that in the recreation of the first Genesis creation, all the whole Genesis creation would then become the original Heaven and earth from which He first came.

Jesus never had a “first Genesis creation-centered” temporal mindset. But, “God gave man free will” or “all mankind fell in Adam” as starting points of frameworks by which to understand God’s plan are “first Genesis creation-centered” temporal mindsets. A “first Genesis creation-centered” mindset is a temporal and man-centered system of thought. It is not an eternal frame of thought setting forth God’s eternal whole counsel plan.

An eternal frame of thought setting forth God’s eternal whole counsel plan would begin in God the Father in the First Estate of Heaven and in that Heaven and earth with New Jerusalem above with it’s population. The first Genesis creation is a temporal creation predestined to be destroyed. It is the First Estate of Heaven that God sent Jesus to recreate in final summation.

Mankind is merely a temporal race on a temporal creation. Neither mankind nor the first Genesis creation would be the “proof text”, limit, or focus of an accurate and Christ-centered eternal whole counsel revelation.

A Christ-centered and all-encompassing vision of God’s eternal whole counsel plan begins in God… in Eternity… not in a temporal first Genesis creation in the temporal flesh of a temporal human race.

Both Calvinism and Arminiasm present to us a temporal vision centered in a temporal Genesis creation and in a temporal race of man… never seeing that the end result of the recreated Genesis creation is in fact the truly eternal Heaven and earth above us recreated anew through Jesus Christ.

The more truly eternal our vision… the more insignificant the temporal Genesis creation, the temporal race of man according to his temporal flesh, and the sufferings of this present time. What matters is the new creation, the Israel of God from above, world without end, and He who was, and is, and is to come.

Romans 8: 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus knew everything about His life on earth as a man, His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension; His return, delivering the Kingdom up to His Father – everything from Alpha to Omega - was planned and predestined by God the Father.

Jesus said, “I and My Father are one".
 

 

[striger]

It is only confusion looking at the Bible seeing only flesh and not spiritual levels. Calvinism sees only the flesh level: man in time on earth in flesh.

Calvinism cannot see or comprehend words for time and eternity in scripture. (Has not studied these?)

Well, the Atonement is Unlimited. The reprobate come through the fire saved on the Last Day.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The Genesis creation was created to destroy the devil and sin:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The Genesis creation was created to destroy the spirit of the devil and all his works through the cross.

God created the reprobate in common grace... though they couldn't be saved in human lifetime. They are devils incarnate. Their spirits are in a state of blasphemy from conception.

The Genesis creation was created for the purpose of their salvation as humans... coming through the fire saved on the Last Day with their devil spirits and sin all destroyed.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Everlasting fire means that the fire will last until there is no more day and night: requiring the destruction of their devil spirits.

That's why we are here.

Calvinism is a man-centered, temporal mindset. It cannot see the spirit level... and is missing 70% of the eternal whole counsel plan.

The Atonement is Unlimited. It's not a one phase plan.

Calvinism is not developed enough to see past only one phsae in time.

Calvinism teaches that God is in charge of everything as the bible tells us. Whats so fleshy about that besides reading the Word with eyeballs of flesh?

 

[striger]

My friend, the natural mind thinks the thing that are spiritual are foolishness.

You have no evidence of any of your charges. What is happening, is that Calvinism focuses on man in time in flesh on earth: man-centered, temporal, carnal, and natural. Error.

All mankind fell in sin in Adam. True. That is according to the flesh.

All are children of wrath according to the flesh. True. That is according to the flesh.

What your natural mind cannot comprehend is that there is a spirit realm... and there is a spiritual level... and God is Spirit. That is the level that Calvinism cannot see. So, rather than trying to listen, your mind is throwing false accusations at me with no basis... because you don't see what I see and you have no "category" for me thinking you are right and I am wrong.

I forgive you. But, look at this and see if you see something Calvinism doesn't see:

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus is from above: Heaven.
They are from beneath: Hell.
Next is the world level. Above beneath was not.

Jesus declares them literal children of the devil (seed of the serpent).

Jesus is declaring that their spirits come from hell... and this is the cause of their reprobation. They came from hell in their spirits and they will die in their sins.

Looking according to the flesh... the eternal whole counsel cannot be seen.

Takes looking at the spiritual level to see the grounds for rerobation.

All men have natural minds. Thats why God steps in some to soften thier hearts. Whats that got to do with calvinism?

 

[Laura Lee]

All men have natural minds. Thats why God steps in some to soften thier hearts. Whats that got to do with calvinism?

Amen. Calvinism is not fullness of revelation. As long as we accept that and seek to see more... all in alignment with the truth of scripture and the Sovereignty of God... we do well. So, what it has to do with Calvinism is that I am saying that I am declaring greater revelation than Calvinism does. And, as long as what I say aligns with scripture, that revelation should be received as the Word of God is received. Calvinism is not "the limit" of the full revelation of scripture. It is in clear error... that I have pointed out. Not sure what else to say... but that John Calvin would agree that the Word of God... not his level limit.. is the standard and measure of sound biblical doctrine. John Calvin was humble. I heard him say that he thought perhaps he saw 80% of revelation. I place it closer to 30%. He still did marvelously. Saints should not stop at his revelation... but press forward into greater revelation of the Word of God revealed by the Spirit.

Election is not unconditional. Reprobation is not eternal. The atonement is not limited. Etc. My revelation is biblical and sound... and deserves examination rather than being summarily rejected because it exceeds the limit of Calvinism. I am challenging the limit of Calvinism... not departing from the sound doctrine that God is 100% Sovereign.

God bless!

 

[Laura Lee]

Calvinism teaches that God is in charge of everything as the bible tells us. Whats so fleshy about that besides reading the Word with eyeballs of flesh?

I never said that God is not Sovereign and in charge of everything. I said that election is not unconditional. Election is based on foreknowledge and foreknowledge is not election. It's foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Election is according to foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is not foresight of what man would do to "merit salvation" or "attain salvation by his own will and choice".

So, foreknowledge is the grounds of election. Foreknowledge is viable, tangible, and real as a grounds of election. And is not foresight.

So, then, what it is it since it is not election itself but the grounds for election?

I have explained biblically what it is and my case deserves biblical examination though it is beyond the scope of revelation John Calvin presented. And, to me, he was the greatest mind of a theologian whose works I have read. Yet, he has only 30% of revelation perhaps of the eternal whole counsel plan.

So, why should what I set forth I be measured against John Calvin, rather than the Word of God itself?? John Calvin, I know, would read my case and review it. He stood on the Word alone.... and rebuked the Roman Catholic Church for resting on themselves rather than the Word of God alone.

God bless!

 

[A New Dawn]

Amen. Calvinism is not fullness of revelation. As long as we accept that and seek to see more... all in alignment with the truth of scripture and the Sovereignty of God... we do well. So, what it has to do with Calvinism is that I am saying that I am declaring greater revelation than Calvinism does. And, as long as what I say aligns with scripture, that revelation should be received as the Word of God is received. Calvinism is not "the limit" of the full revelation of scripture. It is in clear error... that I have pointed out. Not sure what else to say... but that John Calvin would agree that the Word of God... not his level limit.. is the standard and measure of sound biblical doctrine. John Calvin was humble. I heard him say that he thought perhaps he saw 80% of revelation. I place it closer to 30%. He still did marvelously. Saints should not stop at his revelation... but press forward into greater revelation of the Word of God revealed by the Spirit.

Election is not unconditional. Reprobation is not eternal. The atonement is not limited. Etc. My revelation is biblical and sound... and deserves examination rather than being summarily rejected because it exceeds the limit of Calvinism. I am challenging the limit of Calvinism... not departing from the sound doctrine that God is 100% Sovereign.

God bless!

Sounds gnostic to me. No wonder you carry an unorthodox icon.

 

[Laura Lee]

Sounds gnostic to me. No wonder you carry an unorthodox icon.

To the untrained ear... an advanced Reformed theologian... sounds gnostic. I don't receive criticism that has no basis in scripture nor in fact. It's the work of a gnostic.

 

[Rick Otto]

I said that election is not unconditional. Election is based on foreknowledge and foreknowledge is not election. It's foreknowledge

.
Knowledge before the fact.
The result of predetermination (planning).
He knew what He was going to do before He did it.
That is foreknowledge, right?

 

[A New Dawn]

To the untrained ear... an advanced Reformed theologian... sounds gnostic. I don't receive criticism that has no basis in scripture nor in fact. It's the work of a gnostic.

You making accusations about men and women of God, brothers and sisters in Christ, is the work of the devil. It is a proud person that insists that his own interpretation is 100% revealed by God while insisting that those who believe differently only have, say, 30% revealed by God. How convenient is that?

 

[striger]

I never said that God is not Sovereign and in charge of everything. I said that election is not unconditional. Election is based on foreknowledge and foreknowledge is not election. It's foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Election is according to foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is not foresight of what man would do to "merit salvation" or "attain salvation by his own will and choice".

So, foreknowledge is the grounds of election. Foreknowledge is viable, tangible, and real as a grounds of election. And is not foresight.

So, then, what it is it since it is not election itself but the grounds for election?

I have explained biblically what it is and my case deserves biblical examination though it is beyond the scope of revelation John Calvin presented. And, to me, he was the greatest mind of a theologian whose works I have read. Yet, he has only 30% of revelation perhaps of the eternal whole counsel plan.

So, why should what I set forth I be measured against John Calvin, rather than the Word of God itself?? John Calvin, I know, would read my case and review it. He stood on the Word alone.... and rebuked the Roman Catholic Church for resting on themselves rather than the Word of God alone.

God bless!

If God is the past, present and future all at once, then the total of past, present and future adds up to make predestination and forknowlege to be the same thing.

God doesnt wait for man to do something man can't do.

Man only does what God tells him to do.

There is no stand alone man.

 

[striger]

Amen. Calvinism is not fullness of revelation. As long as we accept that and seek to see more... all in alignment with the truth of scripture and the Sovereignty of God... we do well. So, what it has to do with Calvinism is that I am saying that I am declaring greater revelation than Calvinism does. And, as long as what I say aligns with scripture, that revelation should be received as the Word of God is received. Calvinism is not "the limit" of the full revelation of scripture. It is in clear error... that I have pointed out. Not sure what else to say... but that John Calvin would agree that the Word of God... not his level limit.. is the standard and measure of sound biblical doctrine. John Calvin was humble. I heard him say that he thought perhaps he saw 80% of revelation. I place it closer to 30%. He still did marvelously. Saints should not stop at his revelation... but press forward into greater revelation of the Word of God revealed by the Spirit.

Election is not unconditional. Reprobation is not eternal. The atonement is not limited. Etc. My revelation is biblical and sound... and deserves examination rather than being summarily rejected because it exceeds the limit of Calvinism. I am challenging the limit of Calvinism... not departing from the sound doctrine that God is 100% Sovereign.

God bless!

If God waits for us to accept and seek more, He'll be waiting forever. If God created what will never happen then the "waiting" will never apply. Arminians asks arminian questions. Those kind of questions are man made questions. Those kinds of questions cant be answered while men don't understand the spiritual things of God.

No point in men asking spiritual questions when they dont understand spiritual things of God. They end up asking questions for no reason other than to confuse themselves. Men love confusion and chaos. It keeps the happy.

No single molecule runs free on its own without God directing its every move.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Too much to read here but if arminianism and calvinism were weighted on a scale of errors, arminianism will hit the bottom very rapidly as the heaviest in errors. Arminianism will break all scales to the point of being dead weight.

Arminianism is as useful as paperweight

what you might not be aware of is that there are other views besides Calvinism and Arminianism....I hold a different view from both, though closer to Arminianism

 

[LoveofTruth]

"He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."(Isaiah 66:3,4 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Infant salvation defeats many points of Calivinism....

 

[LoveofTruth]

Calvinism teaches that God is in charge of everything as the bible tells us. Whats so fleshy about that besides reading the Word with eyeballs of flesh?

There are certain things that God CANNOT do according to Holy scripture...are you aware of that?

He CANNOT do certain things, they are impossible for God

 

[Jipsah]

There are certain things that God CANNOT do according to Holy scripture...are you aware of that?

He CANNOT do certain things, they are impossible for God

Sure. God can't make a four sided triangle, God can't outrun Himself, God can't make a rock so big He can't lift it, God can't not exist, God can't divide by zero, or anything else that is an absurd linguistic game. So?

 

[SkyWriting]

There are certain things that God CANNOT do according to Holy scripture...are you aware of that?He CANNOT do certain things, they are impossible for God

God cannot do things that oppose what He has designed.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Sure. God can't make a four sided triangle, God can't outrun Himself, God can't make a rock so big He can't lift it, God can't not exist, God can't divide by zero, or anything else that is an absurd linguistic game. So?

I was responding to the statement that said

"'Calvinism teaches that God is in charge of everything as the bible tells us"

I was pointing out that according to scripture, God cannot do everything and is not forcing mans choice or will and that God cannot lie or change or deny Himself according to scripture. I was not referring to the other statements you made like God cannot make a rock so big that he cannot lift it etc.

But in fact God did make a rock so big that he cannot lift it so to speak, He created man and man and man with a hardened heart God cannot force to believe or lift them into heaven, they must repent and believe in the Light they are given and that true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1 : 9 KJV) . The reason men are condemned is when they hate the light John 3 KJV not because they had no choice or were created to be lost from the beginning. Men harden their hearts and God can simply withdraw from them and they become harder. God can be said to harden mens hearts when they resist Him and harden to Him.

Some act like God does everything and is in charge of everything as if that means God is the creator of sin and that God makes man sin. Some even God's far as absurdly saying that God moves the killer to kill and the robber to rob and they call it God's secret will.

So i had to address that wrong idea first. Some also say that God made Adam sin.

 

[LoveofTruth]

God cannot do things that oppose what He has designed.

God does not tempt men to sin and God did not create sin or make men sin. God cannot lie or change or deny Himself. So if men deny Him they do it , not God making them do it, which shows a free will within the bounds of their bondage.