Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[Rdr Iakovos]

Ok Iak, if you say so.. thanks for your opinion on this.
QED


Your view and my view of Rev 20 had absolutely nothing to do with my saying that you folks have no assurance of your salvation.. and yet you're telling me that I do not understand.. it's obvious to me that you did not understand the subject that you jumped into after Asinner had made the initial comments.
I wasn't responding to that dialogue- Iwas responding to what you said to me.



Hey, I must agree with you on this one.. I forgot that you disagree with the catholics in transubstantiation, and you folks call it consubstantiation, isn't that right..?
As I said above, QED
You are thinking of Lutherans


So then, you do NOT take John 6 literally, as the catholics do.. is that correct..?
Again, incorrect. We literally believe it, without attempting to define it.

Thanks for pointing that out.. I do remember that there is a difference between you and the catholics.. and that is basically what it comes down to the eucharist.. again, feel free to correct my glaring mis-representation of 'the' true church of God as you endorse it..
I love the backhand part of a contrived compliment. Now, regarding the differences between us and Rome: I would be hard pressed to answer for them.



Well then, some point you've made there.. although that's nothing we didn't know already.
Glad to hear you acknowledge that your opinions on the interpretation of Rev 20 are just that- opinions.



Revelation 11 speaks of the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. this is not the case right now.. for that pertains to the things which shall be hereafter..
So says you.



Simply sharing my faith Iak, as you do yours.. scholarship has nothing to do with that, perhaps it does for you, it does not for me. The doctrine which I believe to be true are not founded upon scholars, but upon the whole counsel of scripture as it is studied and applied.
Ditto. So your triumphalistic declarations about how I or we do not understand how to interpret (fill in blank) should be tempered, I'd hazard, with a disclaimer.



Well, then thanks again for correcting them.
de nada



How one builds upon the foundation of Jesus Christ has real reward and loss associated with it. The problem is that you're confounding salvation with sanctification and how we're to walk in the spirit rather than in the flesh.
No, you're artificially separating sanctification from salvation, to your potential peril, and that of those who would hear you out.



Then this explains why you'll never has assurance, because there is no assurance in yourself. It also flat out denies the truth that nothing can separate us (the body of Christ) from the love of GOD in Jesus Christ..
On the contrary, knowing myself as I do, my only hope is Christ. Therefore my assurance is one of informed caution, not giddy antinominialism

It's also partly because you folks believe that you're placed there (into Christ) in water baptism as well.
Baptism is salvific only inasmuch as it is part of the process. A Prayer at an altar, or an inner conviction- these may be part, also. You say we are not assured, yet tell us we believe we are assured by water- which claim would you like to stick with?



Again, if you're standing upon yourself.. then it's no wonder that you have doubts.. I don't always 'feel' saved.. and I can doubt myself.. but I know that I can not sustain that which I could have never, ever, earned in the first place.

I asked the question before and you folks don't answer it..

Are you working toward your salvation ?
No, and yes. See James, and see Paul. No, and yes. Paul says Abraham was justified by faith. James says he was justified by his deeds. James and Paul do not contradict- scripture is complimentary, not contradictory.
No, and yes. I cannot achieve the remission of my sin- that is Him alone. I can receive said forgiveness, by believing and confessing. I cannot add to my merit by obeying the Law- but I can be transformed by 1. renewing my mind and 2. following Him.

And again, against this offensive charge that I "stand on myself:" I don't even stand on my own faith. I stand on the faith of Christ. But I not only stand, I follow. I do not ignore the warnings, nor do I ignore the promises.

 

[ETide]

I wasn't responding to that dialogue- Iwas responding to what you said to me.

OK, then please show MY post to YOU (a number will be fine), where I said anything remotely close to your lack of assurance having anything to do with Rev 20.

Again, incorrect. We literally believe it, without attempting to define it.

If you literally believe John 6, then why do you not believe that you have eternal life..? Evidently you don't believe what the LORD says concerning anyone who eats His flesh and drinks His blood, how that they have eternal life, and will be raised up at the last day..

Glad to hear you acknowledge that your opinions on the interpretation of Rev 20 are just that- opinions.

As yours are.. Perhaps you'd share your opinions on Revelation 11 where it speaks of the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. in contrast to John's gospel where He says that His kingdom is not of this world..

So, do you believe that Rev 11 has already taken place, and if so, when did it happen ?

And feel free to share moreso if you want to make YOUR opinion very clear on Rev 11.

Ditto. So your triumphalistic declarations about how I or we do not understand how to interpret (fill in blank) should be tempered, I'd hazard, with a disclaimer.

Yeah, I guess claiming that the ORTHODOX CHURCH is 'the' church of God, as you folks constantly do.. isn't too triumphalistic..

No, you're artificially separating sanctification from salvation, to your potential peril, and that of those who would hear you out.

Paul says clearly that even the man who builds poorly upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, will suffer loss, but still be SAVED..

How could he possibly say that if he didn't know.. ?

How could Paul say that to live was Christ, and to die was gain.. or that he is crucified with Christ.. or to set our affections on things above, and not on the things of the earth, because we are dead, and our life is HID in CHRIST with GOD and that when HE appears, we SHALL appear with HIM.. ?

HE must have been out of line here 'ey.. or when he tells the Philippians that he is confident that HE who had begun a good work in them, would perform until the DAY of Jesus Christ..

Some folks choose to HEAR GOD OUT and take His word for it.. when HE says that they HAVE eternal life and that they can KNOW that they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, we tend to HEAR HIM OUT in these things Iak..

On the contrary, knowing myself as I do, my only hope is Christ. Therefore my assurance is one of informed caution, not giddy antinominialism

Oh boy, NOW here come the false accusations and implications of antinominialism..

Baptism is salvific only inasmuch as it is part of the process. A Prayer at an altar, or an inner conviction- these may be part, also. You say we are not assured, yet tell us we believe we are assured by water- which claim would you like to stick with?

Now who is mis-representing who..?

I commented that you folks believe that water baptism places you into Christ.. it's where you folks claim that you're born again..

I never said that it assures you of anything, you've made it perfectly clear that you're not assured of your salvation.

No, and yes. See James, and see Paul. No, and yes. Paul says Abraham was justified by faith. James says he was justified by his deeds. James and Paul do not contradict- scripture is complimentary, not contradictory.
No, and yes. I cannot achieve the remission of my sin- that is Him alone. I can receive said forgiveness, by believing and confessing. I cannot add to my merit by obeying the Law- but I can be transformed by 1. renewing my mind and 2. following Him.

And again, against this offensive charge that I "stand on myself:" I don't even stand on my own faith. I stand on the faith of Christ. But I not only stand, I follow. I do not ignore the warnings, nor do I ignore the promises.

So it's no if you read Paul and yes if you read James.. ?

There is no contradiction between the two imo, so I agree that the word is consistent.. to me, James simply states the obvious.. FAITH without works IS DEAD.. and we know that WE have no good thing in us, in fact, we're to PUT OFF the old man in his corruption and put on the NEW man which is CREATED in righteousness and true holiness..

Good works are the RESULT of being saved and having the new man (Christ) in us..

The OLD MAN has absolutely no bearing on our good works.. he is crucified with Christ.. and although we still struggle with the flesh.. it's as Paul says.. set your affections on things above.. because YOU are DEAD..

And that's the truth of the grace of God in our Lord Jesus Christ.. we can grieve the Spirit by which we are SEALED until the day of redemption.. although when FAITH works BY LOVE.. that problem seems to grow less and less and less, like chains falling off, as we see that DAY approaching.

 

[FreeinChrist]

FreeinChrist, are you trying to trip me?

Parents are the ones speaking FOR the child...so they must be the ones to prepare. And that is the conclusion to our little chat.

No, I am not trying to "trip you" and feel it is odd to even suggest that.

I am pointing out that the list of quotes you posted do not address the specific thing I pointed out. I could throw out a lot of quotes and verses on all kinds of posts but if they do not address the point I am making or are being questioned on, it is worthless to the argument.

And THAT is "the conclusion of our little chat"!

 

[FreeinChrist]

OK, then please show MY post to YOU (a number will be fine), where I said anything remotely close to your lack of assurance having anything to do with Rev 20.

I don't think you had written a thing about Rev 20. It was brought up by another along with OSAS, etc, which , IMHO, was a way of finding out what you believe and to turn the discussion to that instead.

Oh boy, NOW here come the false accusations and implications of antinominialism..

hmmm....I live by the law of faith and guessing you do too. Correct?

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

 

[ETide]

I don't think you had written a thing about Rev 20. It was brought up by another along with OSAS, etc, which , IMHO, was a way of finding out what you believe and to turn the discussion to that instead.

Thank you, it's one thing to say things, it's another thing when folks start telling you what you said..

hmmm....I live by the law of faith and guessing you do too. Correct?

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

It seems as though many still don't understand the fundamental aspects of the gospel.. (ie, grace apart from any works of righteousness which WE might do).. how that the old nature is condemned, and that our only means of WORKING righteousness is through the new man who is created in righteousness and true holiness..

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

OK, then please show MY post to YOU (a number will be fine), where I said anything remotely close to your lack of assurance having anything to do with Rev 20.

I'll do you one better- here's your quote:

Your church can't assure your salvation.. it rejects the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth

Those are not my ... but are yours.

If you literally believe John 6, then why do you not believe that you have eternal life..? Evidently you don't believe what the LORD says concerning anyone who eats His flesh and drinks His blood, how that they have eternal life, and will be raised up at the last day..

I said before that I know that I have eternal life. You conflate issues because of your doctrine.

As yours are.. Perhaps you'd share your opinions on Revelation 11 where it speaks of the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.. in contrast to John's gospel where He says that His kingdom is not of this world..

So, do you believe that Rev 11 has already taken place, and if so, when did it happen ?

This is not the eschatology forum. Suffice to say, I have answered this in part through my previus posts. We are decidely not Preterist.

Yeah, I guess claiming that the ORTHODOX CHURCH is 'the' church of God, as you folks constantly do.. isn't too triumphalistic..

No, it's not triumphalistic, anymore than it is for you to say that you're a Christian.

Paul says clearly that even the man who builds poorly upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, will suffer loss, but still be SAVED..

Yes, through a purging fire. Is building poorly and walking away from the job site the same deal??

How could he possibly say that if he didn't know.. ?

How could Paul say that to live was Christ, and to die was gain.. or that he is crucified with Christ.. or to set our affections on things above, and not on the things of the earth, because we are dead, and our life is HID in CHRIST with GOD and that when HE appears, we SHALL appear with HIM.. ?

HE must have been out of line here 'ey.. or when he tells the Philippians that he is confident that HE who had begun a good work in them, would perform until the DAY of Jesus Christ..

Some folks choose to HEAR GOD OUT and take His word for it.. when HE says that they HAVE eternal life and that they can KNOW that they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, we tend to HEAR HIM OUT in these things Iak..

Do you hear his warnings also, or do you tune Him out on those?

I commented that you folks believe that water baptism places you into Christ.. it's where you folks claim that you're born again..


I never said that it assures you of anything, you've made it perfectly clear that you're not assured of your salvation.

That's where you're mistaken again. I'm not self-assured- I'm assured in Him who is salvation. My marriage with the love of my life is mine to build up or tear down. I can walk away from it. Salvation is a marriage, not a get out of hell free card. IN the marriage, the great mystery, He is the Bridegroom. It is He who woos and pursues and prepares. Nevertheless, what does Holy Scripture say about the Virgins, and about brides who give themselves into adultery? As James tells us "cleanse your hands, you sinners."

Being as you claim not to be anitnomian, where are your cries for holiness? Scripture is jam-packed with such. When do you ever quote these? He or she who teaches the commandments will be called WHAT in the kingdom of heaven?

So it's no if you read Paul and yes if you read James.. ?

I cannot believe how hard of hearing you are in this matter. My explanation was crystal clear.
Paul deals with the first error, which is works/righteousness. We cannot earn right standing before God.

James deals with the second error, which is antinominianism. The Law and commandments transform who we are. It is who and what we are that the Lord has always been concerned with. Doing right is not concerned with measuring up, which is the error of Cain. Likewise, Christ's gift of making us measure up does not finsih the transformation of our person, nor does it give us a leg up over 'the sinners.'

There is no contradiction between the two imo, so I agree that the word is consistent.. to me, James simply states the obvious.. FAITH without works IS DEAD.. and we know that WE have no good thing in us, in fact, we're to PUT OFF the old man in his corruption and put on the NEW man which is CREATED in righteousness and true holiness..

Good works are the RESULT of being saved and having the new man (Christ) in us..

The OLD MAN has absolutely no bearing on our good works.. he is crucified with Christ.. and although we still struggle with the flesh.. it's as Paul says.. set your affections on things above.. because YOU are DEAD..

And that's the truth of the grace of God in our Lord Jesus Christ.. we can grieve the Spirit by which we are SEALED until the day of redemption.. although when FAITH works BY LOVE.. that problem seems to grow less and less and less, like chains falling off, as we see that DAY approaching.

And what does Paul mean practically when he says 'set your affections." What does he mean when he says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." What does James mean when he says "cleanse your hands, o ye sinners." Note that I have not used question marks, for these are rhetorical questions. Obey means obey, not 'feel good about your status, and you will magically begin to do right.' No, there are practical measures to transformation, the first being realizing that all deeds done gain us nothing in stature. That being said, God said to obey all, so not doing so is intentional sin and presumption.

The gospel does not say "feed the poor if you feel like it, it's all good." No, it is clear that those who do not do so shall be cast out into outerdarkness. Those that do so will be counted among sheep. Did they "earn" their spot? No, it was given them.
This is a mystery that does not commend itself to shallow OSAS doctrine.

Our assurance is in Him alone. Let me repeat that with emphasis. You read Our assurance is in Him. We read Our assurance is in Him.

 

[racer]

Didache;

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

I'm not sure how you are addressing my statement here?

 

[racer]

Racer

After reading your post, the first thought I had was "Didache". Thank you WarriorAngel!

Didache;

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

God Bless

Like I said to WA, how does this address my post?

 

[racer]

Thank you for confirming my insight . . . . .

 

[ETide]

[/size]
I'll do you one better- here's your quote:

Your church can't assure your salvation.. it rejects the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth

Those are not my ... but are yours.

Give me the number Iak of MY post.. because what you're refering to here is the series of responses to Asinner's original post.. if you can't admit to such a simple thing as this, then so be it.. it's ridiculous to play child like games with you.

I said before that I know that I have eternal life. You conflate issues because of your doctrine.

You claim to have eternal life in Christ and yet no assurance of your salvation.. that's a good one.. some doctrine that the Orthodox church teaches.. or is your own private interpretation.

This is not the eschatology forum. Suffice to say, I have answered this in part through my previus posts. We are decidely not Preterist.

Thank you, your inability to answer the simple question is noted.

No, it's not triumphalistic, anymore than it is for you to say that you're a Christian.

Claiming that the ORTHODOX CHURCH is 'THE' church of God is not only triumphalistic, it's scriptural ignorance at best..

Yes, through a purging fire. Is building poorly and walking away from the job site the same deal??

Perhaps you'll start teaching us about PURGATORY now.. OR is that only a catholic dogma..

Do you hear his warnings also, or do you tune Him out on those?

Not only do I heed my Saviour's warnings.. I am chastened and corrected by Him through my life and through the trials and tribulations of my faith.. Although I understand that I am HIS child.. and that He will never leave me nor forsake me.. AND most importantly, I understand the simply principle of SALVATION and how that I could have NEVER earned that in the first place.. it's GRACE through faith.

That's where you're mistaken again. I'm not self-assured- I'm assured in Him who is salvation. My marriage with the love of my life is mine to build up or tear down. I can walk away from it. Salvation is a marriage, not a get out of hell free card. IN the marriage, the great mystery, He is the Bridegroom. It is He who woos and pursues and prepares. Nevertheless, what does Holy Scripture say about the Virgins, and about brides who give themselves into adultery? As James tells us "cleanse your hands, you sinners."

Being as you claim not to be anitnomian, where are your cries for holiness? Scripture is jam-packed with such. When do you ever quote these? He or she who teaches the commandments will be called WHAT in the kingdom of heaven?

Listen to you, all you folks ever speak of is YOUR CHURCH being the church, over and over again, how that the WORD OF GOD is the product of YOUR CHURCH and its Tradition, and when do you ever speak to the glory and majesty of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ..? ? I haven't heard that at all from any of you folks.. and you're asking me where my cry for holiness is..? ? You folks speak loud and clear in post after post Iak.. Your testimony is very clear.

I cannot believe how hard of hearing you are in this matter. My explanation was crystal clear.

Paul deals with the first error, which is works/righteousness. We cannot earn right standing before God.

James deals with the second error, which is antinominianism. The Law and commandments transform who we are. It is who and what we are that the Lord has always been concerned with. Doing right is not concerned with measuring up, which is the error of Cain. Likewise, Christ's gift of making us measure up does not finsih the transformation of our person, nor does it give us a leg up over 'the sinners.'

Oh, ok, so Christ didn't FINISH your righteousness ? I agree Iak, your testimony is crystal clear.

And what does Paul mean practically when he says 'set your affections." What does he mean when he says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." What does James mean when he says "cleanse your hands, o ye sinners." Note that I have not used question marks, for these are rhetorical questions. Obey means obey, not 'feel good about your status, and you will magically begin to do right.' No, there are practical measures to transformation, the first being realizing that all deeds done gain us nothing in stature. That being said, God said to obey all, so not doing so is intentional sin and presumption.

Practically he means that you're dead, and that there's nothing YOU can do to earn or to maintain the SALVATION OF GOD. IF your motivation is ANYTHING but your LOVE for Jesus Christ, then you're standing on a false basis.. we WORK out our own SALVATION (which we have) with fear and trembling for precisely the reason that is stated... BECAUSE IT IS GOD WORKING in us..

The gospel does not say "feed the poor if you feel like it, it's all good." No, it is clear that those who do not do so shall be cast out into outerdarkness. Those that do so will be counted among sheep. Did they "earn" their spot? No, it was given them.
This is a mystery that does not commend itself to shallow OSAS doctrine.

There's an ETERNITY of difference between FAITH which WORKS by love and faith which works for MERIT.. think about it.

Our assurance is in Him alone. Let me repeat that with emphasis. You read Our assurance is in Him. We read Our assurance is in Him.

You're the one who says it's YOU that you doubt.. no kidding, and so again, your testimony speaks for itself.. If your assurance was IN CHRIST, then you would KNOW that you have eternal life in Him.. that's if Christ is in you of course.. and that you should know as well.. although who knows.. you folks claim that you're born again by God when some man sprinkles some water over an infant.. so it's no wonder that there's a lack of assurance right from the start.

 

[Asinner]

Like I said to WA, how does this address my post?

Triple immersion has always been the preferred method; however, there will be times when the preference, like having cold, living water, with a triple immersion will be unattainable (an emergency baptism on an elderly person in Arizona, for example) . The thief on the cross, obviously, could not receive proper baptism; therefore, God baptized him in blood. There is a difference when someone receives a baptism in the Church that is not "preferred", over the person that refuses the baptism of the Church because of pride. It is God who baptizes us and He has given us a proper method in which to receive His Grace. I will never say that His Grace is absent in baptisms outside of the Church; but to outright reject the baptism as unnecessary, is to me, rejecting one of Christ's most Holy Covenants.

God Bless

 

[Asinner]

Give me the number Iak of MY post.. because what you're refering to here is the series of responses to Asinner's original post.. if you can't admit to such a simple thing as this, then so be it.. it's ridiculous to play child like games with you.



You claim to have eternal life in Christ and yet no assurance of your salvation.. that's a good one.. some doctrine that the Orthodox church teaches.. or is your own private interpretation.



Thank you, your inability to answer the simple question is noted.



Claiming that the ORTHODOX CHURCH is 'THE' church of God is not only triumphalistic, it's scriptural ignorance at best..




Perhaps you'll start teaching us about PURGATORY now.. OR is that only a catholic dogma..



Not only do I heed my Saviour's warnings.. I am chastened and corrected by Him through my life and through the trials and tribulations of my faith.. Although I understand that I am HIS child.. and that He will never leave me nor forsake me.. AND most importantly, I understand the simply principle of SALVATION and how that I could have NEVER earned that in the first place.. it's GRACE through faith.




Listen to you, all you folks ever speak of is YOUR CHURCH being the church, over and over again, how that the WORD OF GOD is the product of YOUR CHURCH and its Tradition, and when do you ever speak to the glory and majesty of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ..? ? I haven't heard that at all from any of you folks.. and you're asking me where my cry for holiness is..? ? You folks speak loud and clear in post after post Iak.. Your testimony is very clear.



Oh, ok, so Christ didn't FINISH your righteousness ? I agree Iak, your testimony is crystal clear.




Practically he means that you're dead, and that there's nothing YOU can do to earn or to maintain the SALVATION OF GOD. IF your motivation is ANYTHING but your LOVE for Jesus Christ, then you're standing on a false basis.. we WORK out our own SALVATION (which we have) with fear and trembling for precisely the reason that is stated... BECAUSE IT IS GOD WORKING in us..



There's an ETERNITY of difference between FAITH which WORKS by love and faith which works for MERIT.. think about it.



You're the one who says it's YOU that you doubt.. no kidding, and so again, your testimony speaks for itself.. If your assurance was IN CHRIST, then you would KNOW that you have eternal life in Him.. that's if Christ is in you of course.. and that you should know as well.. although who knows.. you folks claim that you're born again by God when some man sprinkles some water over an infant.. so it's no wonder that there's a lack of assurance right from the start.

Etide

This is the Orthodox perspective on our salvation:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:10-14)


Psa 4:1 [[To the chief Musician on Neginoth, A Psalm of David.]] Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me [when I was] in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.

Psa 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I [am] weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Psa 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble [which I suffer] of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

Psa 25:16 Turn thee unto me, and have mercy upon me; for I [am] desolate and afflicted.

Psa 27:7 Hear, O LORD, [when] I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.

Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.

Psa 31:9 Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, [yea], my soul and my belly.

Psa 51:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.]] Havemercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psa 86:16 O turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; give thy strength unto thy servant, and save the son of thine handmaid.

Hsa 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will havemercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Mar 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.

Mar 10:48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 18:38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, havemercy on me.

Luk 18:39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Give me the number Iak of MY post.. because what you're refering to here is the series of responses to Asinner's original post.. if you can't admit to such a simple thing as this, then so be it.. it's ridiculous to play child like games with you.
"Give me."
Feel free to look it up for yourself.

You claim to have eternal life in Christ and yet no assurance of your salvation.. that's a good one.. some doctrine that the Orthodox church teaches.. or is your own private interpretation.
Do you suppose that we see the Eucharist as a magic bullet, just consume and salvation is guaranteed?
That is the way that you have presented John 6


Thank you, your inability to answer the simple question is noted.
Correction: unwillingness to answer topic and further derail thread. Note that.



Claiming that the ORTHODOX CHURCH is 'THE' church of God is not only triumphalistic, it's scriptural ignorance at best..
So says you. And with your opinion comes the attached meaning you imply with capitals and single quotes.


Perhaps you'll start teaching us about PURGATORY now.. OR is that only a catholic dogma..
Purgatory is Catholic. Of course, you dodge the implications of the way the Greek reads by labeling it Catholic, and then you can and do dispense with it.



Not only do I heed my Saviour's warnings.. I am chastened and corrected by Him through my life and through the trials and tribulations of my faith.. Although I understand that I am HIS child.. and that He will never leave me nor forsake me.. AND most importantly, I understand the simply principle of SALVATION and how that I could have NEVER earned that in the first place.. it's GRACE through faith.
As I've stated repeatedly, we needn't worry about His faithfulness.



Listen to you, all you folks ever speak of is YOUR CHURCH being the church, over and over again, how that the WORD OF GOD is the product of YOUR CHURCH and its Tradition, and when do you ever speak to the glory and majesty of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ..? ? I haven't heard that at all from any of you folks..
Let's dispense with this falsehood:

First, the word Church is neither stated nor implied above.

Second, Here are quotes from my recent posts on this thread:
-------------------------------------------
1.Our standard of Truth is Christ (806)
2. it is Christ alone who saves (806)
3. You trust is well placed in Him. I, unlike you, do not either state or imply that there is any doubt in whom you trust.(813)
4. I am assured of He who is salvation, not in "my salvation." It is not a work of mine, but is of Him. Not my faith, but the faith of Christ. I do not make vain claims regarding my own state before Christ because He is the Judge. (813)
5. We don't 'spiritualize it- we really believe that His Kingdom has come and is coming. "Of the increase of His governement and of peace there shall be no end" says the Prophet Isaiah. (817)
6. knowing myself as I do, my only hope is Christ. (820)
7.I stand on the faith of Christ. But I not only stand, I follow. I do not ignore the warnings, nor do I ignore the promises.(820)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, we are Christ-centered, Christ-believing Christians. Our dependence upon Him, and our witness to Him is unquestionable.

You were saying??



and you're asking me where my cry for holiness is..? ? You folks speak loud and clear in post after post Iak.. Your testimony is very clear.
Yes, we do speak loud and clear as regards holiness. Thank you for saying so. Hopefully, our testimony of love will shine through as well. It's both/and, not either/or, for as it is written, if I have not love, I am nothing.

Oh, ok, so Christ didn't FINISH your righteousness ? I agree Iak, your testimony is crystal clear.
Yes, but your understanding is muddy. Clearly I said the following:

Christ's gift of making us measure up does not finish

the transformation

Your bold, not mine. Now, Christ 'making us measure up' is the finished righteousness. But this is not the end of the transformation.



Practically he means that you're dead, and that there's nothing YOU can do to earn or to maintain the SALVATION OF GOD. IF your motivation is ANYTHING but your LOVE for Jesus Christ, then you're standing on a false basis.. we WORK out our own SALVATION (which we have) with fear and trembling for precisely the reason that is stated... BECAUSE IT IS GOD WORKING in us..
Our motivation is love for Jesus.




There's an ETERNITY of difference between FAITH which WORKS by love and faith which works for MERIT.. think about it.
We've spent 2000 years thinking about it.



You're the one who says it's YOU that you doubt.. no kidding, and so again, your testimony speaks for itself.. If your assurance was IN CHRIST, then you would KNOW that you have eternal life in Him.. that's if Christ is in you of course.. and that you should know as well.. although who knows.. you folks claim that you're born again by God when some man sprinkles some water over an infant.. so it's no wonder that there's a lack of assurance right from the start.
This paragraph is filled with so many errors- many which I've already corrected repeatedly- that I can do nothing but recuse myslef from this merry go'round
be well
James

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Asinner again.

grr

Well said, Asinner. Very well said.

 

[ETide]

Etide

This is the Orthodox perspective on our salvation:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:10-14)


Psa 4:1 [[To the chief Musician on Neginoth, A Psalm of David.]] Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me [when I was] in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.

Psa 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I [am] weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Psa 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble [which I suffer] of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

Psa 25:16 Turn thee unto me, and have mercy upon me; for I [am] desolate and afflicted.

Psa 27:7 Hear, O LORD, [when] I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.

Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.

Psa 31:9 Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, [yea], my soul and my belly.

Psa 51:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.]] Havemercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psa 86:16 O turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; give thy strength unto thy servant, and save the son of thine handmaid.

Hsa 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will havemercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Mar 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.

Mar 10:48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 18:38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, [thou] Son of David, havemercy on me.

Luk 18:39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on me.

And again, the claim from "the" church is that a person can not be sure of their salvation..

What's the ORTHODOX perspective on this one Asinner..

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of His Son.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Asinner]

And again, the claim from "the" church is that a person can not be sure of their salvation..

What's the ORTHODOX perspective on this one Asinner..

Etide,

I just gave you the Orthodox perspective . . .

God Bless

 

[ETide]

"Give me."
Feel free to look it up for yourself.

I can't Iak, and neither can YOU, because I never said anything remotely close to what you have said.. but hey, if you want to play your little kiddie game, then that's fine. It's obvious that you can't provide the post.

Do you suppose that we see the Eucharist as a magic bullet, just consume and salvation is guaranteed?
That is the way that you have presented John 6

I suppose that you simply do not believe John 6, because if you did believe it, then you would believe that you have eternal life. It says plainly that they have eternal life. The Orthodox interpretation must be something different..

Correction: unwillingness to answer topic and further derail thread. Note that.

I already noted that you can't answer it, and I also know that you're the one who brought up Revelation as something that I said to you.. although we know that isn't true, it's simply a matter of your not comprehending a simple post to another person and then stepping in and mis-representing it.. So be it, this is child's play, and now you will not answer a simple question pertaining to your own accusation.

So says you. And with your opinion comes the attached meaning you imply with capitals and single quotes.

So says the word of God too, but that's just a matter of your Tradition.. IF you want to pretend that your orthodox church is the church of God, then be our guest, it simply exemplifies your complete lack of understanding the scriptural aspects of the LORD's church.

Purgatory is Catholic. Of course, you dodge the implications of the way the Greek reads by labeling it Catholic, and then you can and do dispense with it.

It's clear to me who is dodging Iak, that would be you.

As I've stated repeatedly, we needn't worry about His faithfulness.

I know, you're too focused on yourself and on the orthodox church and its Tradition. The word of God is your Tradition.. you must be very proud of it.

Let's dispense with this falsehood:

First, the word Church is neither stated nor implied above.

Second, Here are quotes from my recent posts on this thread:
-------------------------------------------
1.Our standard of Truth is Christ (806)
2. it is Christ alone who saves (806)
3. You trust is well placed in Him. I, unlike you, do not either state or imply that there is any doubt in whom you trust.(813)
4. I am assured of He who is salvation, not in "my salvation." It is not a work of mine, but is of Him. Not my faith, but the faith of Christ. I do not make vain claims regarding my own state before Christ because He is the Judge. (813)
5. We don't 'spiritualize it- we really believe that His Kingdom has come and is coming. "Of the increase of His governement and of peace there shall be no end" says the Prophet Isaiah.(817)
6. knowing myself as I do, my only hope is Christ. (820)
7.I stand on the faith of Christ. But I not only stand, I follow. I do not ignore the warnings, nor do I ignore the promises.(820)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, we are Christ-centered, Christ-believing Christians. Our dependence upon Him, and our witness to Him is unquestionable.

You were saying??

Hey, pat yourself on the back there.. you can look up your own comments and yet you can't provide the ONE where you accuse me of claiming that your lack of assurance is connected with Rev 20.. and you're speaking of FALSEHOOD.. again, you folks are constantly speaking of your church and how that it's the church.. and yet you have no assurance of your salvation.. BUT, you're Christ centered.. that's funny Iak.

Here's the true church of God who can assure no person of their salvation, and then tells anyone who is sure of their salvation in the LORD JESUS CHRIST that it's presumptious..

Yes, we do speak loud and clear as regards holiness. Thank you for saying so. Hopefully, our testimony of love will shine through as well. It's both/and, not either/or, for as it is written, if I have not love, I am nothing.

Well, if your constant claims of the ORTHODOX CHURCH being the church of God can be ascribed to holiness.. then it's no wonder that your leader is called His Highest Holiness, or something ridiculous like that..

Yes, but your understanding is muddy. Clearly I said the following:

Your bold, not mine. Now, Christ 'making us measure up' is the finished righteousness. But this is not the end of the transformation.

Our being conformed to the image of Christ from glory to glory is the work of His Spirit in a believer.. so it's not you, as much as you want it to be.. It's of God.. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.. Perhaps you believe that you need to fill in the rest.. it's simply false.. and the self proclaimed orthodox church still ain't got it right..

Our motivation is love for Jesus.

If it was, then you wouldn't claim that the LORD's church is the orthodox church, or that HIS word is the product of YOUR Tradition.. but that's the testimony over and over again from you folks.. and YOU Call that motivation LOVE for the LORD.. ? ? It sounds more like LOVE for my orthodox church and that I'm in the 'true' church..

We've spent 2000 years thinking about it.

As verified right here in this ridiculous statement.. as if your church is His church..

This paragraph is filled with so many errors- many which I've already corrected repeatedly- that I can do nothing but recuse myslef from this merry go'round
be well
James

Ok Your Correctness. It's been typical responding to your high esteem of you and your orthodox church..

I'd bid you the same, although that ain't happening until you loose yourself from the blindness of the orthodox church being HIS church.. so again.. that simply ain't happenin.. those that claim that they can see can't see..

 

[ETide]

Etide,

I just gave you the Orthodox perspective . . .

God Bless

No Asinner, in case you didn't realize it, you quoted some scripture.. and that's what I did.. you probably won't answer it, and that's fine.. I'll just say that it's my perspective..

How's that..?

 

[Asinner]

No Asinner, in case you didn't realize it, you quoted some scripture.. and that's what I did.. you probably won't answer it, and that's fine.. I'll just say that it's my perspective..

How's that..?

Was the Pharisee assured of his salvation? Was the publican?

In Orthodoxy, we don't boast of our assurance in Christ, we pray for mercy.

God Bless

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:10-14)

 

[ETide]

Was the Pharisee assured of his salvation? Was the publican?

In Orthodoxy, we don't boast of our assurance in Christ, we pray for mercy.

God Bless

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:10-14)

IF you'd look a little closer at this Asinner.. you'd see that it speaks of how a person is JUSTIFIED in God's sight.. not how they're SAVED..

One exalted their own self, and one looked for their mercy elsewhere.. it's sort of like this.. who do you know on these boards that constantly claims to be the true church over and over again.. ?

When GOD saves a person by baptizing them with the Holy SPIRIT OF PROMISE, and telling them that this is the earnest of their inheritiance IN HIM until the REDEMPTION of the PURCHASED possession.. then you can rest assured in that.. perhaps you can not..

I can, I believe God, I don't believe the claims of the church which claims to be the church but can not assure me of anything..

Now you can speak to the scriptures in 1 John 5 or you can ignore them.. that's up to you..