LDS Ephesians 2:1-10

Peter1000

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This teaching is totally from the imagination of JS. There is no such teaching in the bible. God does not partially save. I have asked before---please state one verse anywhere in the bible that states God partially saves. You are either saved or lost--there is no grey area in between, there are no levels of salvation. In or out of His presence---that is it.
God does not partially save, but you will be rewarded according to your good works. We believe the reward you receive is what part of heaven you reside in and what you are allowed to do.

That is why in 1 Corinthians 15 (which is about the resurrection and after) it says that there are bodies Celestial, and bodies Terrestrial, and the glory of the Celestial bodies are compared to the brightness of the Sun, and the glory of the Terrestrial bodies are compared to the brightness of the moon.

This is the reward you receive according to your good works. You will receive a Celestial kind of body in heaven, or you will receive a Terrestrial kind of body in heaven. The difference between the bodies is their ability to withstand the presence of God.

There is actually another kind of body, whose glory is compared to the brightness of the stars. These kinds of bodies are not given a name, but JS was told what its name is and it is Telestial.

So do well and you will receive a Celestial body and live with God and Jesus eternally.
 
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mmksparbud

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God does not partially save, but you will be rewarded according to your good works. We believe the reward you receive is what part of heaven you reside in and what you are allowed to do.

That is why in 1 Corinthians 15 (which is about the resurrection and after) it says that there are bodies Celestial, and bodies Terrestrial, and the glory of the Celestial bodies are compared to the brightness of the Sun, and the glory of the Terrestrial bodies are compared to the brightness of the moon.

This is the reward you receive according to your good works. You will receive a Celestial kind of body in heaven, or you will receive a Terrestrial kind of body in heaven. The difference between the bodies is their ability to withstand the presence of God.

There is actually another kind of body, whose glory is compared to the brightness of the stars. These kinds of bodies are not given a name, but JS was told what its name is and it is Telestial.

So do well and you will receive a Celestial body and live with God and Jesus eternally.

But that is exactly what you are saying---He saves you, but you stay down in that lower level where you are not in His presence---some salvation. We are saved into His presence, completely. What rewards there are is different from salvation. We are all changed into our heavenly bodies when He comes--
Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Doesn't say a word about different bodies according to works. You are either saved or not. Bodies terrestrial are earthly bodies---that is what terrestrial means--
G1919
ἐπίγειος
epigeios
ep-ig'-i-os
From G1909 and G1093; worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
Total KJV occurrences: 7

Telestial is made up by JS.

Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


This does not say that the terrestrial bodies are compared to the moon and celestial to the sun!!
It says that the moon, the stars and the sun all have their different glories.


  1. Dictionary
    ce·les·tial
    [səˈlesCHəl]
    ADJECTIVE
    1. positioned in or relating to the sky, or outer space as observed in astronomy.
      "a celestial body"
      synonyms:
      (in) space · heavenly · astronomical · extraterrestrial · stellar · planetary · in the sky · in the heavens · superterrestrial

  1. Dictionary
    ter·res·tri·al
    [təˈrestrēəl]
    ADJECTIVE
    1. of, on, or relating to the earth.
      "increased ultraviolet radiation may disrupt terrestrial ecosystems"
      synonyms:
      earthly · worldly · mundane · earthbound · tellurian · terrene ·
      [more]
    NOUN
    1. an inhabitant of the earth.
 
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Peter1000

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But that is exactly what you are saying---He saves you, but you stay down in that lower level where you are not in His presence---some salvation. We are saved into His presence, completely. What rewards there are is different from salvation. We are all changed into our heavenly bodies when He comes--
Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Doesn't say a word about different bodies according to works. You are either saved or not. Bodies terrestrial are earthly bodies---that is what terrestrial means--
G1919
ἐπίγειος
epigeios
ep-ig'-i-os
From G1909 and G1093; worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
Total KJV occurrences: 7

Telestial is made up by JS.

Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


This does not say that the terrestrial bodies are compared to the moon and celestial to the sun!!
It says that the moon, the stars and the sun all have their different glories.


  1. Dictionary
    ce·les·tial
    [səˈlesCHəl]
    ADJECTIVE
    1. positioned in or relating to the sky, or outer space as observed in astronomy.
      "a celestial body"
      synonyms:
      (in) space · heavenly · astronomical · extraterrestrial · stellar · planetary · in the sky · in the heavens · superterrestrial

  1. Dictionary
    ter·res·tri·al
    [təˈrestrēəl]
    ADJECTIVE
    1. of, on, or relating to the earth.
      "increased ultraviolet radiation may disrupt terrestrial ecosystems"
      synonyms:
      earthly · worldly · mundane · earthbound · tellurian · terrene ·
      [more]
    NOUN
    1. an inhabitant of the earth.

1 Corinthians 15 is a chapter from Paul about the resurrection. The whole chapter is about the resurrection and whats going to happen to you.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So what are you going to be changed into? Verses 40,41,and 42 give you a good idea, and tells us that we are changed differently.
Why are some changed into Celestial bodies that compare to the glory of the Sun?
Why are some changed into Terrestrial bodies that compare to the glory of the Moon?
Why are some changed into the X bodies that compare to the glory of the Stars?

In fact you forgot to mention vs 42. After 40 and 41 tell us what kind of bodies there are,
vs 42 tells us why Paul is giving us this information:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruptibly.
IOW this is what is going to happen in the resurrection. Your corrupted body will be raised into an incorruptible body. That incorruptible body will have 1 of 3 types of glory. Celestial, Terrestrial, and X (which JS received to be Telestial).

It actually fits quite nicely

This does not say that the terrestrial bodies are compared to the moon and celestial to the sun!!
It says that the moon, the stars and the sun all have their different glories.

Sorry, this whole chapter is about what happens in the resurrection. Why would Paul stop in the middle of talking about the resurrection and say the moon and the stars and the sun have their different glories. Duh, do we not know that? But what does that have to do with the resurrection?

Paul is giving us a metaphor of what our resurrected bodies are going to be like in the resurrection.
The glory of the Celestial is one, the glory of the Terrestrail is another. He is trying to tell you that your body is either going to be changed into a Celestial body or a Terrestrial body or a Telestial body, and which body you are changed into will depend on how well you obeyed the words of Jesus Christ and how much you love Jesus Christ.

To me this makes sense. If you are all in for Jesus and you do the things that he tells you to do and you love him and want to live with him for eternity, you will. Your body will be changed into a Celestial body and you can stand in the presence of God and Jesus Christ.

But if you have a vague belief in Jesus and you are an OK person, but you like to fool around and you don't read the bible and you don't go to church, and you really don't like being around churchy type people, then you won't. Your body will be changed into a Terrestrial body. This level of heaven in quite like this earth. God comes down periodically, but you can't stand his glory so he has to be in a cloud a far off, and he frightens you, so you really don't want to be near. So you are happy in your resurrected body and you feel the presence of God and Jesus from afar off, never really wanting to be in their direct presence.

And then there are those that do not want anything to do with God and Jesus. Your life has been one of selfishness and you really rather hate being around good people. So again you won't. But you have finally bent your knee and acknowledged that Jesus is the Christ, so you are aware of him, but you don't want to be near his holy nature. So our body will be changed into a Telestial body, and you will not have the visitation of God or Jesus, but will be visited by the Holy Spirit only. And he will act with you how the Holy Spirit acts with us now. But you will not hear him and you will not be influenced necessarily by him.

Finally, there are those that will not bend their knees and acknowledge Jesus, or they acknowledge Jesus, but will fight him forever. These people will be given a kingdom called the kingdom of darkness, and your bodies will be changed and you will be immortal, but have no glory. You will not have the presence of any of the members of the Godhead, you will be in darkness. Satan and his angels will be with you. And in a very interesting arrangement, you will dominate satan because he is only spirit, and you will have a perfect resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit.

The 3 heavens or the 3 degrees of glory make perfect sense from JS and from Paul.
 
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mmksparbud

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1 Corinthians 15 is a chapter from Paul about the resurrection. The whole chapter is about the resurrection and whats going to happen to you.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So what are you going to be changed into? Verses 40,41,and 42 give you a good idea, and tells us that we are changed differently.
Why are some changed into Celestial bodies that compare to the glory of the Sun?
Why are some changed into Terrestrial bodies that compare to the glory of the Moon?
Why are some changed into the X bodies that compare to the glory of the Stars?

In fact you forgot to mention vs 42. After 40 and 41 tell us what kind of bodies there are,
vs 42 tells us why Paul is giving us this information:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruptibly.
IOW this is what is going to happen in the resurrection. Your corrupted body will be raised into an incorruptible body. That incorruptible body will have 1 of 3 types of glory. Celestial, Terrestrial, and X (which JS received to be Telestial).

It actually fits quite nicely



Sorry, this whole chapter is about what happens in the resurrection. Why would Paul stop in the middle of talking about the resurrection and say the moon and the stars and the sun have their different glories. Duh, do we not know that? But what does that have to do with the resurrection?

Paul is giving us a metaphor of what our resurrected bodies are going to be like in the resurrection.
The glory of the Celestial is one, the glory of the Terrestrail is another. He is trying to tell you that your body is either going to be changed into a Celestial body or a Terrestrial body or a Telestial body, and which body you are changed into will depend on how well you obeyed the words of Jesus Christ and how much you love Jesus Christ.

To me this makes sense. If you are all in for Jesus and you do the things that he tells you to do and you love him and want to live with him for eternity, you will. Your body will be changed into a Celestial body and you can stand in the presence of God and Jesus Christ.

But if you have a vague belief in Jesus and you are an OK person, but you like to fool around and you don't read the bible and you don't go to church, and you really don't like being around churchy type people, then you won't. Your body will be changed into a Terrestrial body. This level of heaven in quite like this earth. God comes down periodically, but you can't stand his glory so he has to be in a cloud a far off, and he frightens you, so you really don't want to be near. So you are happy in your resurrected body and you feel the presence of God and Jesus from afar off, never really wanting to be in their direct presence.

And then there are those that do not want anything to do with God and Jesus. Your life has been one of selfishness and you really rather hate being around good people. So again you won't. But you have finally bent your knee and acknowledged that Jesus is the Christ, so you are aware of him, but you don't want to be near his holy nature. So our body will be changed into a Telestial body, and you will not have the visitation of God or Jesus, but will be visited by the Holy Spirit only. And he will act with you how the Holy Spirit acts with us now. But you will not hear him and you will not be influenced necessarily by him.

Finally, there are those that will not bend their knees and acknowledge Jesus, or they acknowledge Jesus, but will fight him forever. These people will be given a kingdom called the kingdom of darkness, and your bodies will be changed and you will be immortal, but have no glory. You will not have the presence of any of the members of the Godhead, you will be in darkness. Satan and his angels will be with you. And in a very interesting arrangement, you will dominate satan because he is only spirit, and you will have a perfect resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit.

The 3 heavens or the 3 degrees of glory make perfect sense from JS and from Paul.

It does not say there are 3 levels of salvation. And it does not mention telestial at all---that is a made up word by JS.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

It says we are not all the same flesh---birds, fish animals and men--that is 4 different kinds of FLSH---not salvation. There are ALSO different bodies between the earthly and the heavenly---the earthly are those pertaining to this earth--terrestrial. The heavenly are those pertaining to the heavens, celestial--no telestial---and each has it's own glory. The sun has it's the moon has it's. Does not compare this to salvation whatsoever but does to the differences in composition. So does the body differ from that which h is terrestrial to the body that is celestial. The earthly, terrestrial body, will be much different than the heavenly, celestial body, no telestial mentioned or even implied. That is all this ois saying---two different kinds of bodies---the earthly and the heavenly. Our heavenly bodies will have no corruption in it. It plainly says there are only 2 bodies.
"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

TWO NOT THREE! EARTHLY AND HEAVERNLY---PERIOD. NOTHING TO DO WITH LEVELS OF HEAVEN.

It is the difference between the earthly, terrestrial and the heavenly, celestial. Plain as day.
The lost do not get a resurrected, glorified body. You will find no versed to support that. They are raised as they went in. Only the saved are raised incorruptible. The lost are destined to join Satan and his angels for destruction---you will find no verwse in the bible that the lost are given eternasl life, it is a gift from God to the saved---never to the lost.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


 
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Peter1000

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It does not say there are 3 levels of salvation. And it does not mention telestial at all---that is a made up word by JS.

Paul is making an analogy about 'there are different kinds of flesh', and also 'there are different kinds of heavenly bodies and the difference in their glories'.

And then he says in vs 42 'so also is the resurrection of the dead'. There are also differences in our resurrected bodies. Some will be more glorious than others.

Those that have eternal life will have the most glorious bodies and will live with God.

Those that are immortal, but will not have eternal life, will have to be pleased with a visit by the Savior from time to time, like our earth life today.

Those that rebelled against the law of the gospel and would not accept Jesus's lifestyle, but finally had to acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ will also be immortal but they will live in the lower heaven, and be visited only by the Holy Ghost, not God or Jesus.

So there is a logical sequence taught us by Paul, and Paul was even caught up into the 3rd heaven, and could not tell us what was going on there, it was too marvelous. Yes, I know your 3rd heaven is the throne of God. You are right. Our 3rd heaven is the Celestial Kingdom that is compared with the glory of the sun, where the throne of God resides. All those that believe and have been valiant in their testimonies of Jesus Christ, will be with God and Jesus in the Celestial Kingdom and have eternal life.

I believe you will be there, you will need to remain as valiant for Jesus as you are now.

The heavenly are those pertaining to the heavens, celestial--no telestial---and each has it's own glory. The sun has it's the moon has it's. Does not compare this to salvation whatsoever but does to the differences in composition. So does the body differ from that which h is terrestrial to the body that is celestial. The earthly, terrestrial body, will be much different than the heavenly, celestial body, no telestial mentioned or even implied. That is all this ois saying---two different kinds of bodies---the earthly and the heavenly. Our heavenly bodies will have no corruption in it. It plainly says there are only 2 bodies.

It makes sense that there are 3 kinds of bodies as vs 41 says there are those with the glory of sun, those with the glory of the moon, and those with the glory of the stars. SUN, MOON, STARS.
vs 41 certainly implies that there is a 3rd level, that of the stars. So don't tell me that a 3rd heaven is not even implied. Remember Paul was caught up into a 3rd heaven, and from that, you know that clearly there are 3 heavens. Now through JS we have the name of the heaven that is compared with the glory of the stars - Telestial kingdom. I don't expect you to acknowledge the name Telestial, but you must acknowledge a 3rd heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2).

Are there going to be people resurrected to the earth, and to the heavens around the earth, and to the throne of God? If you say no, then you will have to agree that Paul was not talking about these kind of heavens in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul was talking about the resurrection, and the kind of body you will be raised to.

He also was not saying that your earthly body is different from your heavenly body. That is given, we all know that instinctively, no need to say it. So look a little deeper, and see that these 3 levels are like the 1st heaven and the 2nd heaven, and the 3rd heaven. We know there are at least 3. heaven.
 
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mmksparbud

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Paul is making an analogy about 'there are different kinds of flesh', and also 'there are different kinds of heavenly bodies and the difference in their glories'.

And then he says in vs 42 'so also is the resurrection of the dead'. There are also differences in our resurrected bodies. Some will be more glorious than others.

Those that have eternal life will have the most glorious bodies and will live with God.

Those that are immortal, but will not have eternal life, will have to be pleased with a visit by the Savior from time to time, like our earth life today.

Those that rebelled against the law of the gospel and would not accept Jesus's lifestyle, but finally had to acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ will also be immortal but they will live in the lower heaven, and be visited only by the Holy Ghost, not God or Jesus.

So there is a logical sequence taught us by Paul, and Paul was even caught up into the 3rd heaven, and could not tell us what was going on there, it was too marvelous. Yes, I know your 3rd heaven is the throne of God. You are right. Our 3rd heaven is the Celestial Kingdom that is compared with the glory of the sun, where the throne of God resides. All those that believe and have been valiant in their testimonies of Jesus Christ, will be with God and Jesus in the Celestial Kingdom and have eternal life.

I believe you will be there, you will need to remain as valiant for Jesus as you are now.



It makes sense that there are 3 kinds of bodies as vs 41 says there are those with the glory of sun, those with the glory of the moon, and those with the glory of the stars. SUN, MOON, STARS.
vs 41 certainly implies that there is a 3rd level, that of the stars. So don't tell me that a 3rd heaven is not even implied. Remember Paul was caught up into a 3rd heaven, and from that, you know that clearly there are 3 heavens. Now through JS we have the name of the heaven that is compared with the glory of the stars - Telestial kingdom. I don't expect you to acknowledge the name Telestial, but you must acknowledge a 3rd heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2).

Are there going to be people resurrected to the earth, and to the heavens around the earth, and to the throne of God? If you say no, then you will have to agree that Paul was not talking about these kind of heavens in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul was talking about the resurrection, and the kind of body you will be raised to.

He also was not saying that your earthly body is different from your heavenly body. That is given, we all know that instinctively, no need to say it. So look a little deeper, and see that these 3 levels are like the 1st heaven and the 2nd heaven, and the 3rd heaven. We know there are at least 3. heaven.

There is no such word as telestial--JS made it up.
"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."
He only describes 2 kinds of human bodies--terrestrial and celestial. Earthly and heavenly. Corrupted or raised into glory--one glory, that of the heavenly, uncorrupted being. He doesn't mention a 3rd kind of heavenly being---he only mentions one heavenly being! You are either terrestrial, earthly, corrupted, or heavenly, celestial, uncorrupted.
The 3rd heaven is where God dwells. We can't go there by plane or rocket ship! The first is the firmament He created that is above the earth---the 2nd is in between these 2 which is outer space, where the other planets and other galaxies are. He ius not describing 3 levels of salvation---but there are 3 heavens. Firmament, outer space and God's heavenly dwelling place--His is the 3rd heaven.
 
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Peter1000

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There is no such word as telestial--JS made it up.
"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."
He only describes 2 kinds of human bodies--terrestrial and celestial. Earthly and heavenly. Corrupted or raised into glory--one glory, that of the heavenly, uncorrupted being. He doesn't mention a 3rd kind of heavenly being---he only mentions one heavenly being! You are either terrestrial, earthly, corrupted, or heavenly, celestial, uncorrupted.
The 3rd heaven is where God dwells. We can't go there by plane or rocket ship! The first is the firmament He created that is above the earth---the 2nd is in between these 2 which is outer space, where the other planets and other galaxies are. He ius not describing 3 levels of salvation---but there are 3 heavens. Firmament, outer space and God's heavenly dwelling place--His is the 3rd heaven.
If we can't go the 3rd heaven, then we will not have eternal life with God and Jesus? In fact will people be resurrected into one of those 3 heavens. And if not, then why did Paul mention them in
1 Corinthians 15, which tells us what is going on in the resurrection?
 
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mmksparbud

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If we can't go the 3rd heaven, then we will not have eternal life with God and Jesus? In fact will people be resurrected into one of those 3 heavens. And if not, then why did Paul mention them in
1 Corinthians 15, which tells us what is going on in the resurrection?

We get there only after we have been resurrected--at the last trump--and we will be changed. Paul did not mention 'them"--he only mentioned the 3rd heaven---which is where God Himself and the angels dwell. He didn't mention the first--the firmament, nor the 2nd--where the planets and galaxies are.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Again, Paul spoeaks of only 2 different bodies--the earthly, corrupt, terrestrial, and the heavenly incorruptible, heavenly, celestial. He does not describe 3 levels of salvation. You asre either saved, and will be in the oresence of God, or unsaved and will go to the lake of fire with Satan and his angels where His protection from His devouring flame is not possible.
 
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Peter1000

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We get there only after we have been resurrected--at the last trump--and we will be changed. Paul did not mention 'them"--he only mentioned the 3rd heaven---which is where God Himself and the angels dwell. He didn't mention the first--the firmament, nor the 2nd--where the planets and galaxies are.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Again, Paul spoeaks of only 2 different bodies--the earthly, corrupt, terrestrial, and the heavenly incorruptible, heavenly, celestial. He does not describe 3 levels of salvation. You asre either saved, and will be in the oresence of God, or unsaved and will go to the lake of fire with Satan and his angels where His protection from His devouring flame is not possible.

Just the idea that Paul went to the 3rd heaven, implies that there are 2 other heavens. Just saying.

So if you are born into a Hindu family and you never hear the name Jesus Christ, then Jesus will send you to a lake of fire with satan and his angels where His protection from His devouring flame is not possible.
So these poor people sit in a lake of fire and the flame is on them for all eternity, and they can feel the fire sensation, but because they are immortal, they will never die from the real flames of fire.
So minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day, year after year, century after century, millennia after millennia, 1,000,000,000 millennia after 1,000,000,000 millennia, these poor people will sit in this lake and suffer the real feelings of fire on their bodies.

Is that what Jesus Christ is all about? I think you need to read more of what JS learned from Jesus about the after life, and what happens in the resurrection. Jesus loves all of his creation, and he has made heaven available to all but the most despicable people who he created, but even then, they will live for ever in their sins, outside the presence of the Godhead, but not in a real lake of fire.

Think about it some more and you will feel the love of Jesus come over you and you will know that the lake of fire is a metaphor of what it will be like for eternity if you do not reach the highest levels of the Celelstial kingdom. If you are not valiant in your testimony of Jesus.
 
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Peter1000

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We get there only after we have been resurrected--at the last trump--and we will be changed. Paul did not mention 'them"--he only mentioned the 3rd heaven---which is where God Himself and the angels dwell.
He didn't mention the first--the firmament, nor the 2nd--where the planets and galaxies are.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Again, Paul spoeaks of only 2 different bodies--the earthly, corrupt, terrestrial, and the heavenly incorruptible, heavenly, celestial. He does not describe 3 levels of salvation. You asre either saved, and will be in the oresence of God, or unsaved and will go to the lake of fire with Satan and his angels where His protection from His devouring flame is not possible.

He didn't mention the first--the firmament, nor the 2nd--where the planets and galaxies are.

Paul didn't mention them because they are not what makes up heaven after the resurrection. He does mention a Celestial glory and a Terrestrial glory that exists in the resurrection, but he does not mention 'the firmament', or the 'planets & galaxies', because they are not the 1st or 2nd heaven in the resurrection.

He also mentions the glory of the stars, which we know to be the Telestial glory.
 
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mmksparbud

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Just the idea that Paul went to the 3rd heaven, implies that there are 2 other heavens. Just saying.

So if you are born into a Hindu family and you never hear the name Jesus Christ, then Jesus will send you to a lake of fire with satan and his angels where His protection from His devouring flame is not possible.
So these poor people sit in a lake of fire and the flame is on them for all eternity, and they can feel the fire sensation, but because they are immortal, they will never die from the real flames of fire.
So minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day, year after year, century after century, millennia after millennia, 1,000,000,000 millennia after 1,000,000,000 millennia, these poor people will sit in this lake and suffer the real feelings of fire on their bodies.

Is that what Jesus Christ is all about? I think you need to read more of what JS learned from Jesus about the after life, and what happens in the resurrection. Jesus loves all of his creation, and he has made heaven available to all but the most despicable people who he created, but even then, they will live for ever in their sins, outside the presence of the Godhead, but not in a real lake of fire.

Think about it some more and you will feel the love of Jesus come over you and you will know that the lake of fire is a metaphor of what it will be like for eternity if you do not reach the highest levels of the Celelstial kingdom. If you are not valiant in your testimony of Jesus.

And so there are---the first is the firmament above the earth, the 3rd is the dwelling place of God and His angels, the 2nd is between the two. I do not happen to believe that the bible teaches that the lake of fire is for eternity. You pay for your sins "according to your works." Eternal torment for everyone is not according to your works. As for those that have never heard the name of Jesus---we all have a voice that leads us, that is the Holy Spirit directing our ways. Those that live up to what light they have received will be informed of all the truth by Jesus Himself after the resurrection. There is no mention of an "immortal soul" in the bible.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

There are only 2 bodies, as you pointed out Paul said---the terrestrial and the celestial. He never said there are 3 levels of salvation--just that there is a 3rd heaven, where God dwells. The first is above the earth, the 2nd is in between. God is just and He alone is immortal. We, the saved, are given immortality as a gift from God at the resurrection.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
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mmksparbud

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Paul didn't mention them because they are not what makes up heaven after the resurrection. He does mention a Celestial glory and a Terrestrial glory that exists in the resurrection, but he does not mention 'the firmament', or the 'planets & galaxies', because they are not the 1st or 2nd heaven in the resurrection.

He also mentions the glory of the stars, which we know to be the Telestial glory.

Paul did not mention them, because they do not exist! He mentions the 3rd heaven only. And he mentions there are only 2 bodies, celestial and terrestrial--never 3 levels of salvation. He only mentions you are either saved or lost. The stars he says are the celestial--that is what the word means--pertaining to the heavens. Terrestrial is pertaining to the earth--earthly and that is what he designates them as. There is no telestial anything.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
 
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Peter1000

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And so there are---the first is the firmament above the earth, the 3rd is the dwelling place of God and His angels, the 2nd is between the two. I do not happen to believe that the bible teaches that the lake of fire is for eternity. You pay for your sins "according to your works." Eternal torment for everyone is not according to your works. As for those that have never heard the name of Jesus---we all have a voice that leads us, that is the Holy Spirit directing our ways. Those that live up to what light they have received will be informed of all the truth by Jesus Himself after the resurrection. There is no mention of an "immortal soul" in the bible.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

There are only 2 bodies, as you pointed out Paul said---the terrestrial and the celestial. He never said there are 3 levels of salvation--just that there is a 3rd heaven, where God dwells. The first is above the earth, the 2nd is in between. God is just and He alone is immortal. We, the saved, are given immortality as a gift from God at the resurrection.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

So will people be found in the first heaven on earth after the resurrection? (Earthly -Terrestrial)? Will people be found in the second heaven, the firmament after the resurrection? (remember the firmament is also called heaven) (X). And finally, will people be found in the third heaven after the resurrection, (the throne of God - Celestial)?
 
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Peter1000

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Paul did not mention them, because they do not exist! He mentions the 3rd heaven only. And he mentions there are only 2 bodies, celestial and terrestrial--never 3 levels of salvation. He only mentions you are either saved or lost. The stars he says are the celestial--that is what the word means--pertaining to the heavens. Terrestrial is pertaining to the earth--earthly and that is what he designates them as. There is no telestial anything.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
When he mentions the 2 bodies, he is telling us that these 2 bodies, with their intended glory will both exist after the resurrection.
 
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mmksparbud

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When he mentions the 2 bodies, he is telling us that these 2 bodies, with their intended glory will both exist after the resurrection.


1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We will be changed---

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We will not be corruptable and incorruptible at the same time! We will be changed into incorruptible bodies. Our mortal bodies will become immortal. What that consists of---nobody knows yet.Christ looked the same, He had His scsars, He ate and drank---but He could go through walls. HE WAS NOT THE SAME.
 
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mmksparbud

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So will people be found in the first heaven on earth after the resurrection? (Earthly -Terrestrial)? Will people be found in the second heaven, the firmament after the resurrection? (remember the firmament is also called heaven) (X). And finally, will people be found in the third heaven after the resurrection, (the throne of God - Celestial)?

When he mentions the 2 bodies, he is telling us that these 2 bodies, with their intended glory will both exist after the resurrection.

When Jesus returns the saved will be resurrected and immediately changed into their celestial bodies--though they will be on this earth. The living saved are also immediately changed into their celestial bodies---then, together, we will ascend to be with Jesus into the 3rd heaven for the 1000 years.
The earth itself, and the living wicked, are destroyed with His coming.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Th_2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

After the 1000 years the wicked are resurrected for their punishment. At that point, every human that ever lived will be together --those that are covered by God's protection on His side, the celestial: those that are not, terrestrial, will be with Satan and receive their punishment, then all evil, all sin will be destroyed in the lake of fire--the 2nd death.

Only the celestial beings will remain---and this earth--terrestrial, will be made new--as it was at creation and better. It will still be earth, but it, too, will have been remade---you could say, I guess, it will be the celestial, terrestrial!
 
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Peter1000

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When Jesus returns the saved will be resurrected and immediately changed into their celestial bodies--though they will be on this earth. The living saved are also immediately changed into their celestial bodies---then, together, we will ascend to be with Jesus into the 3rd heaven for the 1000 years.
The earth itself, and the living wicked, are destroyed with His coming.

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Th_2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

After the 1000 years the wicked are resurrected for their punishment. At that point, every human that ever lived will be together --those that are covered by God's protection on His side, the celestial: those that are not, terrestrial, will be with Satan and receive their punishment, then all evil, all sin will be destroyed in the lake of fire--the 2nd death.

Only the celestial beings will remain---and this earth--terrestrial, will be made new--as it was at creation and better. It will still be earth, but it, too, will have been remade---you could say, I guess, it will be the celestial, terrestrial!
There is probably 1,000 Christian variations as to how the second coming will take place and as many variations as to how the resurrection will take place and who will be resurrected when and what will happen to the righteous, and what will happen to the wicked.

Again, I have to ask, we all read the bible, but we have 1,000 variations as to what is going to happen. Interesting, don't you think?
 
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drstevej

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There is probably 1,000 Christian variations as to how the second coming will take place and as many variations as to how the resurrection will take place and who will be resurrected when and what will happen to the righteous, and what will happen to the wicked.

This is a grotesque exaggeration. List 50 (which is 5% of what you propose).
 
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Peter1000

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This is a grotesque exaggeration. List 50 (which is 5% of what you propose).
OK, I repent, there are around 50 different variations of what will happen, all coming from the same bible.

Let me show you what a variation can look like:
1) Some believe all will be resurrected.
2) Some believe only the righteous will be resurrected.
3) Some believe there will be 3 resurrections
4) Some believe there will be 2 resurrections
5) Some believe there is only heaven and hell
6) Some don't believe there is a lake of fire
7) Some believe that the 1,000 years of the millennium will be on earth
8) Some believe that the 1,000 years will be in heaven
9) Some believe there will be no 1,000 years
10) Some believe hell includes a lake of fire where the poor souls will suffer the flame of fire for eternity
11) Some believe hell is only a way that God helps people be good, but is not real
12) Some believe we will be active in heaven
13) Some believe we will be angels with small harps and just sing praises to God for eternity
14) Some believe all bodies in the resurrection will be the same
15) Some believe that all bodies will not be the same.

Well, I could go on.
 
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drstevej

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^^^ These you mention are actual positions held by a church, pastor or theologian ... or are you including lay-speculators?

If you include the later (lay-speculators) how many Mormon views are there on Heavenly Mom?
 
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