Eph 1:4 exegeted

[FreeGrace2]

Will anyone be saved without good works? Can evil works save anyone?

I cannot imagine why anyone who claims to be a Christian would openly deny Scripture!!

Eph 2;8,9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Let me summarize:
you have been SAVED through FAITH, NOT of yourselves, NOT as a result of works

Notice that the verse does NOT say that one is saved by faith AND works either.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Let me summarize:
one's works are not credited as favor (grace) but as an obligation (what is due).
But, (contrast to works), the one who DOES NOT WORK, but BELIEVES IN HIM…his faith is credited as righteousness

That's how one is declared by God to be righteous; on the basis of faith, NOT works.

Therefore, no kind of works will save anyone.

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul told him: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

It could not be more clear than this.

Salvation is by faith, not by works. Not by faith plus works. Not by works plus faith.

 

[Foghorn]

I cannot imagine why anyone who claims to be a Christian would openly deny Scripture!!

I agree. I am a bit shocked to be reading what I have been reading.

 

[EmSw]

I cannot imagine why anyone who claims to be a Christian would openly deny Scripture!!

Eph 2;8,9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Let me summarize:
you have been SAVED through FAITH, NOT of yourselves, NOT as a result of works

Notice that the verse does NOT say that one is saved by faith AND works either.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Let me summarize:
one's works are not credited as favor (grace) but as an obligation (what is due).
But, (contrast to works), the one who DOES NOT WORK, but BELIEVES IN HIM…his faith is credited as righteousness

That's how one is declared by God to be righteous; on the basis of faith, NOT works.

Therefore, no kind of works will save anyone.

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul told him: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

It could not be more clear than this.

Salvation is by faith, not by works. Not by faith plus works. Not by works plus faith.

But the truth is, you don't believe what the Bible says. You see part of the picture and run with it.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Here is the truth from John. If you don't practice righteousness, you ARE NOT BORN OF GOD!

If you don't practice righteousness, you ARE NOT OF GOD!

The children are manifest by this: if you don't practice righteousness, you ARE A CHILD OF THE DEVIL!

You are a deceiver if you do not believe one who practices righteousness is righteous!

 

[EmSw]

I agree. I am a bit shocked to be reading what I have been reading.

Do the verses from 1 John shock you? They should. Those who think they are born again, but do not practice righteousness, John says they are children of the devil.

I would say that is very shocking!

 

[FreeGrace2]

But the truth is, you don't believe what the Bible says.

What you say isn't the truth.

You see part of the picture and run with it.

That would describe you.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Here is the truth from John. If you don't practice righteousness, you ARE NOT BORN OF GOD!

Do you really not understand what he was saying? He was saying that those who practice righteousness HAVE BEEN born of God. Just check the verb tense: perfect. Action in the past with present results.

It seems your view is that one becomes righteous by practicing righteousness. But Paul already refuted that notion in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

If you don't practice righteousness, you ARE NOT OF GOD!

And again, you misunderstand what "not of God" means. It means "not obeying His plan".

The children are manifest by this: if you don't practice righteousness, you ARE A CHILD OF THE DEVIL!

It means the believer is obeying the plan of the devil. No different than Rom 6.

You are a deceiver if you do not believe one who practices righteousness is righteous!

The ONLY REASON one can even practice righteousness is because God declares believers to be righteous. NOT because one practices righteousness.

Rom 3 and 4 prove that.

 

[EmSw]

Do you really not understand what he was saying? He was saying that those who practice righteousness HAVE BEEN born of God. Just check the verb tense: perfect. Action in the past with present results.

No version I checked has 'have been'. You are straining again.

Anyway, one who does not practice righteous is not (has not been) born of God. Therefore, anyone who does not practice righteous is not saved.

It seems your view is that one becomes righteous by practicing righteousness. But Paul already refuted that notion in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

No FG2, that is John's view, whether you accept it or not.

And again, you misunderstand what "not of God" means. It means "not obeying His plan".

Your attempt to change what God's word says is very revealing. If someone is not of God, I can guarantee they are not saved.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

The children of God and the children of the devil are manifested in this way: whoever DOES NOT practice righteousness is a child of the devil; whoever practices righteousness is a child of God. Plain and simple!

Not obeying His plan? Where in the world do you get that? Just what plan is not obeyed? Anyway, children of disobedience will suffer His wrath.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

So now you have disobedient children being saved, when Paul tells us the wrath of God comes upon disobedient children.
You also have children of the devil being saved. Such things a man will believe to justify his doctrines.

It means the believer is obeying the plan of the devil. No different than Rom 6.

This is starting to get ridiculous. You now have a believer who obeys the devil as being saved.

The ONLY REASON one can even practice righteousness is because God declares believers to be righteous. NOT because one practices righteousness.

Rom 3 and 4 prove that.

Why would God declare you righteous when you are full of unrighteousness? Do you think God is blind? God is not mocked, a man who sows to the flesh will reap corruption. Do you not know, God judges according to a man's deeds? Can children of the devil sow to the Spirit? I'm starting to believe you are trying to deceive us.

 

[Foghorn]

Do the verses from 1 John shock you? They should. Those who think they are born again, but do not practice righteousness, John says they are children of the devil.

I would say that is very shocking!

It is also very shocking how you take verses out of their context. Scripture is not to be taken apart and used how we see fit.

I would say that is very shocking!

 

[Foghorn]

Anyway, one who does not practice righteous is not (has not been) born of God. Therefore, anyone who does not practice righteous is not saved.

I see what your trying to hold onto.

We agree, however, those who are saved practice righteousness because it is who they are now, it is descriptive of one who is born again.

Stop straining and trying to prove a point about a works based salvation, that is not gospel but a doctrine on man.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Do you really not understand what he was saying? He was saying that those who practice righteousness HAVE BEEN born of God. Just check the verb tense: perfect. Action in the past with present results."

No version I checked has 'have been'. You are straining again.

Please check ANY Greek grammar text regarding the perfect tense. And you stop straining.

I said this:
"It seems your view is that one becomes righteous by practicing righteousness. But Paul already refuted that notion in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9."

No FG2, that is John's view, whether you accept it or not.

Then Paul and John were at odds. I reject that notion.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

The children of God and the children of the devil are manifested in this way: whoever DOES NOT practice righteousness is a child of the devil; whoever practices righteousness is a child of God. Plain and simple!

Not obeying His plan? Where in the world do you get that? Just what plan is not obeyed? Anyway, children of disobedience will suffer His wrath.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

So now you have disobedient children being saved, when Paul tells us the wrath of God comes upon disobedient children.
You also have children of the devil being saved. Such things a man will believe to justify his doctrines.

Yes, all of God's children are saved, whether obedient or disobedient. Failure to discern WHY God commands obedience is the problem here.

Yet, there are no verses that plainly warn of loss of salvation. None. That is a huge clue. You've got no proof texts.

Eternal life is a gift of God, which is irrevocable.

This is starting to get ridiculous. You now have a believer who obeys the devil as being saved.

Really bugs you, huh.

But those who don't understand anything about grace get bugged by the sins of others quite a lot.

Why would God declare you righteous when you are full of unrighteousness?

Because He is full of grace.

John 1:14 -
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Do you think God is blind?

No, I know that He is full of grace and truth.

God is not mocked, a man who sows to the flesh will reap corruption. Do you not know, God judges according to a man's deeds?

I sure do. And I've explained that repeatedly.

 

[EmSw]

It is also very shocking how you take verses out of their context. Scripture is not to be taken apart and used how we see fit.

I would say that is very shocking!

Really? What constitutes a child of the devil, according to John?

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

A child of the devil does NOT practices righteousness? A child of the devil is manifested by not practicing righteousness. Do you disagree with John?

A child of God is manifested by practicing righteousness. Since you say one is not saved by practicing righteousness, you are saying a child of the devil is saved, for he doesn't practice righteousness.

 

[EmSw]

I see what your trying to hold onto.

We agree, however, those who are saved practice righteousness because it is who they are now, it is descriptive of one who is born again.

Stop straining and trying to prove a point about a works based salvation, that is not gospel but a doctrine on man.

You keep adding works of righteousness to the saved. Is one who does not practice righteousness (indicative of the child of the devil) saved?

 

[EmSw]

I said this:
"Do you really not understand what he was saying? He was saying that those who practice righteousness HAVE BEEN born of God. Just check the verb tense: perfect. Action in the past with present results."

Please check ANY Greek grammar text regarding the perfect tense. And you stop straining.

Show me a version of the Bible, which is translated by Greek scholars which say such a thing, and you might have a point.

I said this:
"It seems your view is that one becomes righteous by practicing righteousness. But Paul already refuted that notion in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9."

Then Paul and John were at odds. I reject that notion.

It is John's view. John didn't mention faith anywhere in his verses. Does that mean faith is not needed? Not at all. Just as John gave one view, Paul gave another. Together they make the whole.

Yes, all of God's children are saved, whether obedient or disobedient. Failure to discern WHY God commands obedience is the problem here.

Here is why God demands obedience -

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

It is to keep us from His wrath. We are commanded to keep ourselves away from such people.

Ephesians 7
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

You are a child of the devil if you do not practice righteousness. You are manifested as a child of God when you practice righteousness.

Yet, there are no verses that plainly warn of loss of salvation. None. That is a huge clue. You've got no proof texts.

Eternal life is a gift of God, which is irrevocable.

Your doctrine has children of the devil receiving eternal life.

Really bugs you, huh.

But those who don't understand anything about grace get bugged by the sins of others quite a lot.

Here's what I know about grace -

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Actually grace itself gets bugged when people do not obey its teachings.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Show me a version of the Bible, which is translated by Greek scholars which say such a thing, and you might have a point.

Since I gave the actual Greek and its grammar, that trumps ANY translation.

You are a child of the devil if you do not practice righteousness.

Metaphor. The devil doesn't make children.

You are manifested as a child of God when you practice righteousness.

And one BECOMES a child of God by believing in Christ. Jn 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Your doctrine has children of the devil receiving eternal life.

The metaphor means "acting like his children". No one becomes a child of the devil.

Here's what I know about grace -

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Actually grace itself gets bugged when people do not obey its teachings.

It is grace that brings salvation. We are saved by grace (Eph 2:8). We are not saved by works. That's not grace.

And grace does teach us how to live. But NEVER for salvation.

Paul refutes the notion that one can earn salvation by works. Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (grace), but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

v.5 is clear; no one is credited righteousness on the basis of "works". They are credited with righteousness on the basis of faith in Christ.

 

[Foghorn]

Since I gave the actual Greek and its grammar, that trumps ANY translation.

Curious, have you been to school for Greek?

 

[EmSw]

Curious, have you been to school for Greek?

It seems Free Grace theology has its own scholars. I was hoping he could provide a translation which agreed with his assessment.

 

[Foghorn]

It seems Free Grace theology has its own scholars. I was hoping he could provide a translation which agreed with his assessment.

I take that as a no? You are not schooled in Greek and not a Greek scholar?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I take that as a no? You are not schooled in Greek and not a Greek scholar?

Well, nobody speaks Biblical Greek today as a native language anymore. People are only guessing as to what the Biblical Greek is saying.
For God is not going to condemn the poor man living under a bridge who reads his Bible every day for not knowing the Greek.
In other words, God is not going to hold man accountable for not knowing the Greek (i.e. a language that nobody can know with 100% certainty without the aid of the Word of God in their own language).
In Acts chapter 2, God was able to communicate to people in their own language with no problem.
Also, there is no command given to us to know a special language so as to understand God's Word, either.
In fact, Jesus said, beware of the scribes. The Scribes are those who ... "trans-scribed" the Law. Today, the scribes of our day are the scholars. For they trans-scribe God's Word in what they think it says in the Greek (NT) and the Hebrew (OT).
But not all Hebrew and Greek scholars agree with each other in what God's Word says.
For it is bad enough getting people to accept the Word of God in the English language (A language that they are familar with).
Now, you want to throw in the Greek card and make it even more complex for people?
Nobody today grew up speaking or writing Biblical Greek.
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.



....

 

[Foghorn]

Well, nobody speaks Biblical Greek today as a native language anymore.

Yea, so, your point?

People are only guessing as to what the Biblical Greek is saying.

That's not true.

For God is not going to condemn the poor man living under a bridge who reads his Bible every day for not knowing the Greek.

Ah, yea, I agree.

In other words, God is not going to hold man accountable for not knowing the Greek (i.e. a language that nobody can know with 100% certainty without the aid of the Word of God in their own language).

I agree. Who said otherwise?

In Acts chapter 2, God was able to communicate to people in their own language with no problem.
Also, there is no command given to us to know a special language so as to understand God's Word, either.
In fact, Jesus said, beware of the scribes. The Scribes are those who ... "trans-scribed" the Law. Today, the scribes of our day are the scholars. For they trans-scribe God's Word in what they think it says in the Greek (NT) and the Hebrew (OT).
But not all Hebrew and Greek scholars agree with each other in what God's Word says.
For it is bad enough getting people to accept the Word of God in the English language (A language that they are familar with).

Yea, so?

Now, you want to throw in the Greek card and make it even more complex for people?

No, not at all.

Nobody today grew up speaking or writing Biblical Greek.
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Now, why don't you go back and read a bit to see what I was talking about.

Your jumping to conclusions. Really, go back and read and follow the discussion.

Thanks,

 

[EmSw]

I take that as a no? You are not schooled in Greek and not a Greek scholar?

Never said anything of the sort. You've got the wrong person.

 

[Foghorn]

Never said anything of the sort. You've got the wrong person.

Yes, your right, sorry.