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EO & evolution

rusmeister

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Considering this, as a quote from GOD HIMSELF, I think we should pause before we try to explain away the words in the books of Moses, and replace them with the words of the modern intelligentsia...

Is it hard to accept? Yes. I will be the first to admit that. At first, it feels like denying reality itself. Truthfully though, it is letting go of the greatest illusion Satan has perpetrated on mankind... that we can really figure this out on our own. IF there really was a Fall, as described in Holy Scripture, then it only makes sense that purely materialistic investigation would be vain and useless. But considering the results of the demographics from the other thread (currently 78% call themselves Orthodox, but only 34% believe in the Fall as presented in Holy Scripture), I have very little hope that many here will even care... I grieve for modern American "Orthodoxy". I really do.

Lord have mercy on us all.

One of the big problems I see is that some clearly think that in accepting that human evolution as a cosmic theory and the Fall are wholly inconsistent, you have to believe in a 100% literal understanding of EVERYTHING, which is simply not the case. It does mean, however, accepting that the bulk of modern science is in error in its cosmic conclusions, which is much more a matter of philosophy/worldview than science, and that scientists, too, take many things on faith, accepting as true fact what they actually were taught in 5th-grade science class or whatever as true without having performed every step of every experiment from the discovery of the wheel to the development of fusion and the discovery of dark matter themselves.

That is what those committed to scientism see as heresy, an unacceptable challenge to their dogmas. I note only that they ARE dogmas, as dogmatic as that of the Holy Trinity.
 
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vain and useless? I guess you guys shouldn't accept any type of genetic therapies (not talking about embryonic stem cells!!!) or vaccines because the research that has developed such therapies is based on the principles of genetic mutation.

I will say it again Rusmesiter, it is very presumptuous of you to assume that any Orthodox person who does not see the dichotomy that you seem to wish so hard for there to be between science and faith is automatically a:

pro-evolutionist

a follower of scientism

a materialist

a card carrying member of the intelligentia

Does not know his/her faith as well as you do

judgmental judgmental judgmental!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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rusmeister

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vain and useless? I guess you guys shouldn't accept any type of genetic therapies (not talking about embryonic stem cells!!!) or vaccines because the research that has developed such therapies is based on the principles of genetic mutation.

I will say it again Rusmesiter, it is very presumptuous of you to assume that any Orthodox person who does not see the dichotomy that you seem to wish so hard for there to be between science and faith is automatically a:

pro-evolutionist

a follower of scientism

a materialist

a card carrying member of the intelligentia

Does not know his/her faith as well as you do

judgmental judgmental judgmental!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi, Greg,
I'd say YOU are the one assuming about what I assume.
For example, I said "...those committed to scientism..." and you assumed that to be anyone who doubts, is not sure, who thinks the ideas may be compatible. But I didn't say "anyone" or "everyone", but "those committed...".

So you definitely misread me. Naturally all of the other assumptions are similar leaps of error of assumption.
 
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ArmyMatt

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really, not many, because with the exception of those saints whose time on earth came after Darwin, none of them wrote about evolution for the simple fact that at their time, it did not exist

it's easy to take the boy out of the country, but it's hard to take the country out of the boy.

right, so before Darwin no saint spoke against it because it did not exist, post Darwin the saints have spoken against it. one would think, that since it has been more than a century since Darwin came up with his theories, that if it was permissable SOME saints would have spoken in favor of it somewhere. it seems that the saints all say no, and the holy elders and eldresses also say no.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Yes, but also on-going and eternal - both transcendent in nature and immanent to the created. This is illustrated in what we call conception today. We can acknowledge that the physical process is accomplished by the fertilization of the ovum by the spermatozoon without denying what the Fathers said about us each being a unique creation of God.
Very true - it doesn't have to be an either/or scenario that gets placed up a lot.
 
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ArmyMatt

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vain and useless? I guess you guys shouldn't accept any type of genetic therapies (not talking about embryonic stem cells!!!) or vaccines because the research that has developed such therapies is based on the principles of genetic mutation.

um, no. that is not what we reject. as stated by many, we agree that microevolution has happened AFTER THE FALL. genetic mutation, since the fall does not go against what we believe.
 
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rusmeister

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Gxg (G²);65898559 said:
Very true - it doesn't have to be an either/or scenario that gets placed up a lot.
Yeah, G, well, this is ignoring the main thing I think we have all been saying here - that THIS IS an "either/or scenario": either man was evolving in conditions that included death BEFORE the Fall, BEFORE he became man - in which case death did NOT enter the world by sin (an undisputable Christian dogma), or he was created as fully human and Fell - at which point death entered into the world.

I'm not looking for a ten-page essay and four YouTube videos in response; I'd be more interested in an extremely brief summary of how this is not the case. (Not that I can't handle ten-page essays, but I want to know why I should even WANT to.)
 
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jckstraw72

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When discussing evolution I think we should be assessing it on its own merits. I think such a discussion would be more productive and more interesting.

do you mean simply discuss scientific advancements?
 
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G usually posts a thirty-page essay and twenty-five Youtube videos, and I don't think anyone has ever watched even 1/16 of them. You got off easy, Rus! :p

I'm not looking for a ten-page essay and four YouTube videos in response; I'd be more interested in an extremely brief summary of how this is not the case. (Not that I can't handle ten-page essays, but I want to know why I should even WANT to.)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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G usually posts a thirty-page essay and twenty-five Youtube videos, and I don't think anyone has ever watched even 1/16 of them. You got off easy, Rus! :p
Nothing in the forum fits 30 pages :doh:- although we usually have that much in the form of bad jokes, sarcasm/excessive dramatic exaggeration (which isn't useful most of the time) and VERY long ruminations whenever someone says something gurney gets bothered in the over-sensitive modes :cool: And there are plenty of essays to bring up from your contributions.:)

Of course, people learn to deal with it as it is...and move on. At some point, people need to get past the need to assume it's Biblical to make knocks/cheap shots at others without warrant and acting as if the saints were reflected by it
.
As it is, you already give out long postings. In fact, you just gave one not too long ago in #23 - there are several others just like it which you usually do (as noted before). Passion comes out in it, so the long essays are not a surprise...

Of course, people learn to deal with it as it is...and move on. As it is, plenty have already checked out/dealt with the videos MULTIPLE times - and have noted it, even after you tried bringing up that old argument of "No one checks those out!!" because YOU choose not to.. From Dorothea to Philothei (as noted before) and multiple others - it's the case that gurney is USUALLY behind in what he says without the facts on the matter^_^

Life is good...

Yeah, G, well, this is ignoring the main thing I think we have all been saying here - that THIS IS an "either/or scenario": either man was evolving in conditions that included death BEFORE the Fall, BEFORE he became man - in which case death did NOT enter the world by sin (an undisputable Christian dogma), or he was created as fully human and Fell - at which point death entered into the world.
R,

All haven't been seeing the main thing as man evolving with death before the Fall. That's something others have made evolution into. When one makes a false point and then tries to assert that others hold to it, then one is already in error - and several have pointed that out when making plain what they are speaking about when it comes to evolution as well as the many ways scripture was interpreted within the Early Church. IF YOU or others want to focus on the issue of death happening before the Fall (as if that's the only sense others speak in when they think in support of evolution), that is your own choice. Nonetheless, it is not dealing with the issue as others have been noting it. It wasn't even dealing with what I was speaking to Kristos about (or what others have said when I was speaking on "either/or" - and I don't intend on going into depth here on the matter since here and #277 (as well as shared here and here ) already had that occur.

Thus, just ask next time before jumping in assuming you know what others were speaking on. For evolution does not exclusively pertain to DEATH - nor do others speak only in that context. The focus is also on development and things occurring over time.

I'm not looking
Pause, LOL - at no point was anyone concerned for one making demands what they want before asking..
I'm not looking a for a ten-page essay and four YouTube videos in response; I'd be more interested in an extremely brief summary of how this is not the case. (Not that I can't handle ten-page essays, but I want to know why I should even WANT to.)
As said before, if what you said was actually of consequence (and you actually were consistent), then what you say would be taken seriously. Nonetheless, with the pontificating and sophistry in addition to multiple times of extensive writing (and arguments given that no one was even asking on), it's a bit humorous with the demands. I do not care for the demands and what you ask for is not really considered anymore than what I and others have asked of you multiple times. No one is concerned with appeasing you - or acting as if others haven't already had to tolerate you on the same things you speak on. There are many times I and others have had to ask "Why in the world should I even want to read the 8 page essays R is doing?" - but of course it can be slow for you to see that since you always believe the best about yourself :cool:
\
 
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Gxg (G²)

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When discussing evolution I think we should be assessing it on its own merits. I think such a discussion would be more productive and more interesting.
I agree - the science is what should be a focus.
 
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Thanks for the psychoanalysis, Dr. Freud. I feel so much better getting a passive-aggressive diagnosis from a passive-aggressive analyst! :p

This is the first post of yours that I have read in over a year actually. No kidding. You're not on ignore, I just skip the endless litanies of youtube videos, links, pics, and other junk.

Nobody ever said it was biblical to take cheap shots, but you sure did a good job taking some in this post! Pot..kettle, as we've heard around here...;):p Like Shatner said, "irony can be pretty ironic sometimes." I loved your "gurney gets oversensitive" comment in a post that demonstrates oversensitivity seeping out your pores! ^_^

But you did do a good job blasting me with less than 1,000 words. You're getting better! And the lack of Youtube links is impressive!

I think I'll try my hand at the posting style...

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Gxg (G²);65900668 said:
Nothing in the forum fits 30 pages - although we usually have that much in the form of bad jokes, sarcasm/excessive hyberbolic language/exaggeration and long ruminations whenever someone says something gurney gets bothered in the over-sensitive modes :cool:

Of course, people learn to deal with it as it is...and move on. At some point, people need to get past the need to assume it's Biblical to make knocks/cheap shots at others without warrant and acting as if the saints were reflected by it.
 
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Thanks for the psychoanalysis, Dr. Freud. I feel so much better getting a passive-aggressive diagnosis from a passive-aggressive analyst! :p

This is the first post of yours that I have read in over a year actually. No kidding. You're not on ignore, I just skip the endless litanies of youtube videos, links, pics, and other junk.

Nobody ever said it was biblical to take cheap shots, but you sure did a good job taking some in this post! Pot..kettle, as we've heard around here...;):p Like Shatner said, "irony can be pretty ironic sometimes." I loved your "gurney gets oversensitive" comment in a post that demonstrates oversensitivity seeping out your pores! ^_^

But you did do a good job blasting me with less than 1,000 words. You're getting better! And the lack of Youtube links is impressive!

I think I'll try my hand at the posting style...

Learn English Words - Facetious - YouTube


H R Pufnstuf 104 The Mechanical Boy - YouTube

Land of the Lost Final episode - YouTube

Geology Kitchen #3 - Clastic Sedimentary Rocks - YouTube

Wonder Woman Mix - YouTube

How to make a Jack O'Lantern - A detailed step by step How To Carve a Pumpkin - Halloween guide - YouTube

Rush - Tom Sawyer - YouTube

The Supreme Being Explains why Evil Exists - YouTube
Laserblast Trailer - YouTube

I Waste So Much Time
The Official Site of the WWE Universe | WWE.com
Home | Common Core State Standards Initiative
Dirty Harry - Rotten Tomatoes
Raccoons, Raccoon Pictures, Raccoon Facts - National Geographic
DC Comics | Welcome to DC Comics
Frisbee Disc| Wham-O Product Information | Wham-O's heritage and over 70 products including Frisbee Disc, Slip N Slide, Hula Hoop, Hacky Sack, Sprig Toys, Morey, Boogie boards, BZ, and more

"Slugs:The Movie" (1988) - YouTube

Gxg (G²);65900668 said:
Nothing in the forum fits 30 pages - although we usually have that much in the form of bad jokes, sarcasm/excessive hyberbolic language/exaggeration and long ruminations whenever someone says something gurney gets bothered in the over-sensitive modes :cool:

Of course, people learn to deal with it as it is...and move on. At some point, people need to get past the need to assume it's Biblical to make knocks/cheap shots at others without warrant and acting as if the saints were reflected by it.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Thanks for the psychoanalysis, Dr. Freud. I feel so much better getting a passive-aggressive diagnosis from a passive-aggressive analyst! :p
Nothing is really required for psychoanalysis - as it doesn't take long to figure out when seeing the general tendencies and the desire to do unwholesome talk (Ephesians 4:29-30 and Proverbs 11:12). It'd be beneficial to actually stay focused on the OP discussion rather than get derailed on needless points of sarcasm (as has already been addressed before in #68

For as much as you've chosen to use the "passive aggressive" term with anyone disagreeing with you, it's generally no different than someone yelling at the top of their lungs and then saying to others "You're too loud!!." Logically, If you were not passive-aggressive in commentary, you'd be able to not feel compelled to resort to coarse joking/bantering in starting discussion as if one is only able to be quick to attempt being witty....but still overly sensitive in being unable to handle receiving what you choose to throw out - no need for drama, g. And if responding again, that's your choice - but dance alone. Others (from Kristos to Columba and Thekla amongst others) have long noted it to be a bad choice of investment.


This is the first post of yours that I have read in over a year actually. No kidding. You're not on ignore, I just skip the endless litanies of youtube videos, links, pics, and other junk.
This matters.....why? Seriously, it doesn't really do anything no one was seeing it as a real loss for you reading anything. It's simply not that significant - no more than it'd be significant to be concerned with random posters throughout CF on the GT section or other places. There are other Orthodox who will always be of far more importance and having actual weight in their comments - and for them who do read/still note it often, I'm glad for them.

It only matters what you say if I actually felt it was from someone who I gave any real importance to in what they say overall.

Nonetheless, IMHO, having to speak on it (IMHO) is simply another demonstration of rather needless commentary that is done solely due to one choosing to be sensitive rather than dealing with issues as they are. For who was asking at any point whether you checked out a youtube video or a link? In fact, seeing that choosing to exaggerate WITHOUT evidence is the action of false representation , where was it ever the case that always happened? It's like the stereotypical couple where one side says "You always leave the dishes in the sink!!!" when resorting to excessive exaggeration for the sake of making things bigger than they are - and not charitably dealing with the facts.

If you wanted to speak that badly on the issue when no one asked, okay. Perhaps it makes you feel better than you vented a complaint no one asked you on? Who knows - but I have never said it was a concern on what you checked out since it does tend to be more about expressing your own personal views at length rather than addressing issues. There are multiple points that are all too easy to point out (and have been) where there were music videos, links on comments, complaining/rants on school situations or anything else coming to your mind that you did - and much of it others already pointed out to be rather baseless. But of course, what one man values in himself is something others won't care for. The point in saying that is that it really doesn't matter and no one cares - it is something to move on with rather than thinking it makes a difference.

Again, no one is concerned with what you do or don't read - nor does everyone read what you feel is important. It has been said by others that many times it tends to come off way too emotional (as if one's in shock jock mode) and other times.....in content too long to take the time for. Some of it isn't necessary, as Columba and others have pointed out. If wishing to talk on length (and derail), one should at least be consistent since you already give out long postings. In fact, you just gave one not too long ago in #23 - there are several others just like it which you usually do (as noted before). Passion comes out in it, so the long essays are not a surprise...

But as said before, it really doesn't matter to me. That's what you do - and others have to intentionally give you grace on it. If it's that important to you to fuss on it as if we're in elementary school and dealing with whining when someone doesn't get their way, then that's your choice. But it's not something worth losing sleep over or mulling.

And if trying to bring up the old "No one checks out videos" argument (when NO videos were even posted in THIS thread - thus making it a rather petty issue one chooses to repeat ), many have have already checked out/dealt with the videos MULTIPLE times - and have noted it, even after you tried bringing up that old argument of "No one checks those out!!" because YOU choose not to.. From Dorothea (here) to Philothei (as noted before) and multiple others - it's the case that gurney is USUALLY behind in what he says without the facts on the matter :)

Unfortunately, another demonstration of not actually dealing with what was said - AND not seeing ironically where they do exactly what they complain about. To a degree, it's humorous - seeing that no one has EVER put that many videos in a post and there's no evidence at any point of it.

That is more argument via ridicule which does nothing to actually address the issue - and only demonstrates where one never truly had awareness of the facts as they were. It does, of course, lend to the issue of seeing where one actually seems unable to actually deal the boogeyman they seek to portray in others - for there has yet to be a square dealing with each and EVERY posting of multiple videos you've already placed up when it suited you. If one wanted to go there and show it all, it'd not be that terribly difficult - but of course, it doesn't reflect the saints. They stand consistent even if they are not represented in the actions since there are some things that should be beneath believers to engage in.. Hopefully, that can change in the future. Till then, there's always room for growth.

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Gxg (G²)

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Yes, but also on-going and eternal - both transcendent in nature and immanent to the created. This is illustrated in what we call conception today. We can acknowledge that the physical process is accomplished by the fertilization of the ovum by the spermatozoon without denying what the Fathers said about us each being a unique creation of God.
I am thankful for the many others within Orthodoxy who have given some very excellent considerations on the matter ....
 
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"It really doesn't matter to me" and yet he writes a massive post in response to every single point! ^_^:p

Gxg (G²);65901137 said:
Nothing is really required for psychoanalysis - as it doesn't take long to figure out when seeing the general tendencies and the desire to do unwholesome talk (Ephesians 4:29-30 and Proverbs 11:12). It'd be beneficial to actually stay focused on the OP discussion rather than get derailed on needless points of sarcasm (as has already been addressed before in #68

For as much as you've chosen to use the "passive aggressive" term with anyone disagreeing with you, it's generally no different than someone yelling at the top of their lungs and then saying to others "You're too loud!!." Logically, If you were not passive-aggressive in commentary, you'd be able to not feel compelled to resort to coarse joking/bantering in starting discussion as if one is only able to be quick to attempt being witty....but still overly sensitive in being unable to handle receiving what you choose to throw out - no need for drama, g. And if responding again, that's your choice - but dance alone. Others (from Kristos to Columba and Thekla amongst others) have long noted it to be a bad choice of investment.


This matters.....why? Seriously, it doesn't really do anything no one was seeing it as a real loss for you reading anything. It's simply not that significant - no more than it'd be significant to be concerned with random posters throughout CF on the GT section or other places. There are other Orthodox who will always be of far more importance and having actual weight in their comments - and for them who do read/still note it often, I'm glad for them.

It only matters what you say if I actually felt it was from someone who I gave any real importance to in what they say overall.

Nonetheless, IMHO, having to speak on it (IMHO) is simply another demonstration of rather needless commentary that is done solely due to one choosing to be sensitive rather than dealing with issues as they are. For who was asking at any point whether you checked out a youtube video or a link? In fact, seeing that choosing to exaggerate WITHOUT evidence is the action of false representation , where was it ever the case that always happened? It's like the stereotypical couple where one side says "You always leave the dishes in the sink!!!" when resorting to excessive exaggeration for the sake of making things bigger than they are - and not charitably dealing with the facts.

If you wanted to speak that badly on the issue when no one asked, okay. Perhaps it makes you feel better than you vented a complaint no one asked you on? Who knows - but I have never said it was a concern on what you checked out since it does tend to be more about expressing your own personal views at length rather than addressing issues. There are multiple points that are all too easy to point out (and have been) where there were music videos, links on comments, complaining/rants on school situations or anything else coming to your mind that you did - and much of it others already pointed out to be rather baseless. But of course, what one man values in himself is something others won't care for. The point in saying that is that it really doesn't matter and no one cares - it is something to move on with rather than thinking it makes a difference.

Again, no one is concerned with what you do or don't read - nor does everyone read what you feel is important. It has been said by others that many times it tends to come off way too emotional (as if one's in shock jock mode) and other times.....in content too long to take the time for. Some of it isn't necessary, as Columba and others have pointed out. If wishing to talk on length (and derail), one should at least be consistent since you already give out long postings. In fact, you just gave one not too long ago in #23 - there are several others just like it which you usually do (as noted before). Passion comes out in it, so the long essays are not a surprise...

But as said before, it really doesn't matter to me. That's what you do - and others have to intentionally give you grace on it. If it's that important to you to fuss on it as if we're in elementary school and dealing with whining when someone doesn't get their way, then that's your choice. But it's not something worth losing sleep over or mulling.

And if trying to bring up the old "No one checks out videos" argument (when NO videos were even posted in THIS thread - thus making it a rather petty issue one chooses to repeat ), many have have already checked out/dealt with the videos MULTIPLE times - and have noted it, even after you tried bringing up that old argument of "No one checks those out!!" because YOU choose not to.. From Dorothea (here) to Philothei (as noted before) and multiple others - it's the case that gurney is USUALLY behind in what he says without the facts on the matter :)


Unfortunately, another demonstration of not actually dealing with what was said - AND not seeing ironically where they do exactly what they complain about. To a degree, it's humorous - seeing that no one has EVER put that many videos in a post and there's no evidence at any point of it.

That is more argument via ridicule which does nothing to actually address the issue - and only demonstrates where one never truly had awareness of the facts as they were. It does, of course, lend to the issue of seeing where one actually seems unable to actually deal the boogeyman they seek to portray in others - for there has yet to be a square dealing with each and EVERY posting of multiple videos you've already placed up when it suited you. If one wanted to go there and show it all, it'd not be that terribly difficult - but of course, it doesn't reflect the saints. They stand consistent even if they are not represented in the actions since there are some things that should be beneath believers to engage in.. Hopefully, that can change in the future. Till then, there's always room for growth.

10390992_10204244996192085_5743532924581722131_n.jpg
 
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Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
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"It really doesn't matter to me" and yet he writes a massive post in response to every single point! ^_^:p
Post wasn't written for you primarily - and documenting is not terribly difficult to do once and leave it be - :satisfied: Post is written in light of when someone needs to set the record straight on the subject publically (documentation for lurkers/other posters, who do comment on the side/offline in seeing the inconsistencies when being able to reference all instances - past and present - where one does exactly what they accuse of - and thus, not take it seriously).

Most people really don't see the point with the coarse joking as a tendency - nor are they concerned (when they have noted to read things) whether you wish to proclaim that you don't read as if it's significant. Thekla, Dorothea and I have talked on it before as well (and you can ask her on it, of course) - as have many others in PM when it comes to the matter....and thus, as said before, it doesn't really matter with the old accusations since you're unable to verify any of them outside of the over the top exaggeration to attempt making a point. That said, unless you're ready to deal with yourself rather than distracting from the OP (and not really reflecting well what the saints have noted on choosing to not be petty over trivial issues), it's really not a good exercise.


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Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
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It (Genesis) is stories: stories which relate to the existential concerns of death, freedom, isolation, and meaninglessness. God may not be the direct author of death, yet God knew that the beings that he would create would be mortal, so in a way, God is the author of all things. It would be better for us to come to terms with this and to reflect upon why death is so important to life, rather than to shy away from the idea that God allows death for some important reason. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." (John 12:24) You who know what this passage implies in its utmost depths will understand the importance of death in finding the fullness of human life.
So true - and with the issue of death/dying, it's not something that in all ways was ever seen to be a curse.

This is something that has come across my own mind a couple of times when it comes to the elderly. Many seem to associate being elderly/growing old as a sign of the curse---and thus, it's no surprise to see the many ways that many associate youth alone with what Adam/Eve were destined to have on the Earth. Some of the mindsets actually reflecting the larger views of the culture when it comes to death/dying being something people are afraid of....desperately trying to stay young/beautiful forever. ut in processing the subject, I'm not really certain that growing old is something that was outside of the Lord's will. Perhaps it's due to growing up in multi-generational household where I lived with my mother, grand-parents and great-grandparents all in one house.

I honestly do believe that death/dying is something Adam/Eve were not free from in all aspects.For when the Bible speaks of sin entering the earth and with sin, death, it is speaking of spiritual death as far as I can see. Growing old and dying some day does not mean that we have to die of a sickness...for we can simply get old and go home, closing our eyes and experiencing how this body will quit breathing and we will be present with the Lord--a state of transition into the realm that Angels/heavenly spirits live upon.

For more scriptures:
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground...

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are,And to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 3:20
20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.



In regards to the "dustness" of our beings, I think it's noteworthy to see how there is a difference between us and God. Our bodies were are not designed to be eternal since we were built from the dust of the ground BEFORE THE FALL. Many think Genesis 3 was a sign that God cursed man with returning to the dust/dying, although I think the immediate context shows man to be cursed in the area of PRODUCTIVTY. Although he used to be a gardner who was to tend the Garden of Eden and experienced fruit, the ground would now produce thorns/thistles for him in his work...and the statement "From dust you are made and to dust you will return" was a statement highlighting the natural process man goes through.

Our bodies, in their natural states, were designed to return to the dust and we were made to ultimately be united with God in Heaven...in spirit (w/ new glorified bodies). Prior to the fall there was no sickness...but after the fall there is a break of the perfection and there is sickness. And yet in that sickness, it may not need to be assumed that growing old was the result of losing the Lord.

To me,the concept of growing old/dying doesn't seem to be something that was an issue for God..and in many ways, a BEAUTIFUL thing to witness in action when it came about. Seeing how our bodies were never meant to go on forever here on the earth----even though they could go for EXTENSIVE amounts of time (for Centuries at a time)---it could have been the case that God's original design in taking dominion was to also reflect the reality of seasons/time---as that's not something God's against. We could have been placed here temporaily with a long extension/lease---and when done, we'd go to the SPIRITUAL DIMENSION...of which the Physical is but a shadow/reflection of.....and find our permanent residence there.

For some other scriptures to consider, I'm reminded of what would have happened if Adam ate of the fruit AFTER he had sinned against the Lord. For he would have lived forever in that spiritually dead state. His action - disobeying God by eating the fruit - was what killed him and all man. In many ways, it was the concept of Death/Dying that saved Adam and gave mankind the chance for redeemption. For God's action - excluding all man from the Tree of Life was not as punishment for sin, but to save Adam and all mankind from living forever in that state - without any hope of salvation.

What the enemy attempted to do was take that which was made fully good and making it eternally good for nothing.....and with God having to essentially "lock away" ( in Genesis 3:24 ) the tree of life, as if that was the thing Adam could not touch/eat so that the problem wouldn't get worse..seeing that Man needed to eat from the tree as well as the food GOD HIMSELF gave to man for eating---unless, of course, the concept of God giving man food to eat in the form of herbs/fruit (just as he did for all of the other animals) was simply a matter of God really saying He did such for man's pleasure rather than for sustenance.
Genesis 1:29
Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
Genesis 2:7
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
IMHO, It'd be logical to say that man was given food because he was NOT immortal...and could not have survived without some form of life-giving material----which is what the Tree of Life was. And from a scientific perspective, if interested (as it pertains to how Old Earth Creationists see it), see Was Adam Created as an Immortal Being?


For an excerpt:
Two lines of evidence suggest that Adam was not created as an immortal being. First, immortality is not possible in this universe, since the universe itself will eventually die without God's intervention. The second law of thermodynamics (entropy) guarantees that physical beings cannot live eternally. This is why those who go to heaven will eat of the tree of life, and be given spiritual bodies in the place of physical bodies. Second, the Bible indicates that Adam died spiritually the day he sinned. If he would have eaten from the tree of life, he would have lived eternally, though spiritually dead. This is why God went to such great lengths to keep Adam from the tree of life after he had sinned.
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Having to return to Dust/Die would not be a bad thing with all things considered----for if it came to going home at some point, I think one could easily say that it would not have taken place for man for a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time. For it's already interesting to see the extensive time rates man lived---sometimes for multiple centuries, Genesis 9 /Genesis 5:2/Genesis 6:3. One even came close to living 1000 years...
Genesis 5:27
Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died.


Concerning that specific note, I don't think its coincidence since man was still very much genetically pure after the fall/the environment on earth wasn't radically different. Therefore, it's more than possible that man had the potential to live up to that rate/beyond.....and when things are restored via Christ, it's also interesting to see that children/people will be present living in that exact timeframe in New Jerusalem when it comes to them later being tested in The Thousand Years reign of Christ in Revelation 20. People will not perish on the earth and then float off into the heavens...but we'll be BACK ON THE EARTH, with jobs/roles and physical dynamics taking place. Heaven will be on earth, though this time with no death or aging as it was in Genesis.


But regardless of the stage of life, if aging was present during Creation, God and His Perfection would still have been JUST as beautiful before the Fall--as there would have been PURPOSE behind it.

Reminds me of people trying to make a significant issue over which season of the year people should rejoice in more---Fall, Spring, Summer or Winter. Trying to discuss which one is more beneficial would be silly since ALL ARE NECESSARY and apart of the Seasons of Life God has set up
Genesis 8:22
"As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease."
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time.



Depending in whatever season one is in---as well as what is necessary for the moment--will determine what becomes the focus. And in all seasons, there's beauty.

Personally, it seems odd to say that all forms of death occurred after the Fall---as if the season of Fall was like a "consolation prize" for man in light of death since suddenly, the leaves dying and being extremely colorful/beautiful was something that wasn't present prior to the Fall.

 
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