Enoch and Elijah

[pdudgeon]

The Catholic Church differs from Protestantism in the details of what happens at the time of the rapture by not in the fact that there will be a rapture. It's in Sacred Scripture which, along with divine Tradition, is part of the Catholic Church's deposit of faith.

"then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord." - St. Paul, 1 Thess 4:17

THANK YOU!
to say anything else is to toss the baby out with the bath water.

 

[pdudgeon]

I was thinking of the October 7th date actually, not the blood moon.

and who gave a date of Oct 7th?

 

[pdudgeon]

The role of the prophet was to afflict the comfortable and to comfort the afflicted. So they were not liked by many.

“Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Jesus

yep, you could say that again in spades. that's why most prophets were run out of town, stoned, or killed.
and so it continues.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

and who gave a date of Oct 7th?

Chris McConn of the eBible fellowship according to the list I posted a few pages back. It's an interesting list, beginning with dates as early as 69, and the Oct 7th date, which I first saw on the news, as the most recent. There were a lot in the 1800s.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

And there's no such thing as a God-centered socialist government. Socialism makes the government their god.

Maybe that's exactly what the Catholic Workers movement is trying to achieve, a God centered socialistic way of living.

 

[benedictaoo]

THANK YOU!
to say anything else is to toss the baby out with the bath water.

You need to cite the offical Catholic teaching of this rapture you're talking about because I have never heard of this in over 20 years of practicing and studying this faith.

 

[benedictaoo]

The Catholic Church differs from Protestantism in the details of what happens at the time of the rapture by not in the fact that there will be a rapture. It's in Sacred Scripture which, along with divine Tradition, is part of the Catholic Church's deposit of faith.

"then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord." - St. Paul, 1 Thess 4:17

Speaking of the OBOB faith rules, do you remember when you gave your opinion (here) that marriage is a "human invention" and called it "jibberish" to believe that God invented marriage?

cite? The official teaching of this Catholic rapture.

 

[pdudgeon]

Chris McConn of the eBible fellowship according to the list I posted a few pages back. It's an interesting list, beginning with dates as early as 69, and the Oct 7th date, which I first saw on the news, as the most recent. There were a lot in the 1800s.

there were a lot of predictions back then, yes.
but the important thing is not the date or the hour (which no one knows) of Christ's return.

to understand the parable of the wise and foolish bridesmaids, one has to understand Jewish wedding customs.
back then the probable date for the wedding was indeed known, because of the date for the bethrothal.
the time between the bethrothal and the wedding was used by the groom to 'prepare a dwelling place' for the couple.

Do those words sound familiar? they should. they're biblical.
in preparing a dwelling place consideration was taken for how much space would be needed, what rooms, furnishings, etc.
the bride would need to effectively set up housekeeping with her husband in his house.

to build the space, furnish it, plan the wedding, and get everything ready took time.
so while the exact wedding date or time could not be known, what could be known were two things:
1. that it would be done, and
2. that his comming for the wedding would be announced. By the Friend of the Groom.

and in that last is the key that sets at naught all the various date predictions.
for there is only one Friend of the Groom, not many.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

cite? The official teaching of this Catholic rapture.

The official teaching of the Catholic Church on the rapture is 1 Thess 4:17. Since St. Paul says that it's going to happen, we believe it. The difference is that some Protestants have mixed it with fictional writing. And the Catholic Church usually calls it "the bodily resurrection" rather than using the word "rapture". Here's an example of how the Catholic Church views it:

"After the course of our earthly life, participation in complete intimacy with the Father thus comes through our insertion into Christ's paschal mystery. St Paul emphasizes our meeting with Christ in heaven at the end of time with a vivid spatial image: 'Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words' (1 Thes 4:17-18)."

- St. John Paul II, General Audience (21 July 1999)
​

Here's what an early Church father said about it:

"If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and 'we shall be caught up in the clouds.' Acts 1:9 Do you see how great is the honor? And as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him."

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 8 on First Thessalonians​

 

[pdudgeon]

You need to cite the offical Catholic teaching of this rapture you're talking about because I have never heard of this in over 20 years of practicing and studying this faith.

with due respect, that's not surprizing
considering that many of the bishops who were in the recent synod had not read the encyclicals of the recent Popes when it came to the family.
as such the writings of St. John Paull II, and Pope Emeritus Benedict on the family were rarely cited. (as reported on World Over Live.)

 

[benedictaoo]

You're talking about the resurrection of the dead. It's not generally or at all referred to as "the rapture". It's misleading. We don't have a "rapture" teaching. We teach Christ returns and the dead will rise and we'll be judged. That's the belief. We meet Christ when He comes, those living persons in Christ are caught up with Him along with the dead in the sky. This is not generally call the rapture. You should not use language that will confuse. The only thing you can do for these end times is pray for the conversion of the world, for the conversion of sinners, make reparations for them and have your own house in order. There is not much you can do other then that. You can share the Gospel message with others but it needs to be a message of God's mercy, forgiveness, love, salvation, not judgement, or condemnation. There is a fine line between obsession, curiosity, preaching a God that damns and not one that looks for ways to save us. Pope Francis is trying to save the world by showing God's mercy, making it easy to repent, making people want to repent. He's not preaching hell and brimstone. You have to look for the balance.

 

[Armoured]

The official teaching of the Catholic Church on the rapture is 1 Thess 4:17. Since St. Paul says that it's going to happen, we believe it. The difference is that some Protestants have mixed it with fictional writing. And the Catholic Church usually calls it "the bodily resurrection" rather than using the word "rapture". Here's an example of how the Catholic Church views it:

"After the course of our earthly life, participation in complete intimacy with the Father thus comes through our insertion into Christ's paschal mystery. St Paul emphasizes our meeting with Christ in heaven at the end of time with a vivid spatial image: 'Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words' (1 Thes 4:17-18)."

- St. John Paul II, General Audience (21 July 1999)
​

Here's what an early Church father said about it:

"If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and 'we shall be caught up in the clouds.' Acts 1:9 Do you see how great is the honor? And as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him."

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 8 on First Thessalonians​

Not what the rockbotprots mean when they talk about "The Rapture", which is more about revenge fantasy to everyone who was ever mean to them than anything else.

 

[benedictaoo]

Maybe that's exactly what the Catholic Workers movement is trying to achieve, a God centered socialistic way of living.

I cant speak about it because i know nothing of it but we certainly could use a true Catholic party who's ideas are based on Catholic social justice. Or we all could just heed the call to conversion and repentance and get this society on the right track. The one we're on now will take us straight to hell no matter what anyone else says. So what if the party now wants to do a few seemingly good things for the poor, immigrants, the environment. It comes with a price tag of apostasy.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What we call the bodily resurrection Protestants call the "rapture". We have a different theology than Protestants do on it, but the Church has always believed what St. Paul says about it in 1 Thess 4:13-18. We should take care to make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. From a Vatican report (added emphasis):

"The Pentecostal difficulty rests in the absence of biblical evidence. There is a generally accepted view that Mary, as one of the faithful, awaits the day of resurrection when she, along with all Christians, will be united bodily with her Son in glory. Pentecostals see a parallel between Mary's "assumption" and the Pentecostal understanding of the "bodily resurrection" or the "rapture of the church" (1 Thess 4:13-18, cf. esp. v. 17), but differ as to when this will take place for Mary."​

Source:
Final Report of the Dialogue Between the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity of the Roman Catholic Church and Some Classical Pentecostals 1977-82

 

[benedictaoo]

Not disagreeing with you. Just saying you need to temper how you phrase things because as you know full well we refer to this as the Resurrection of the dead, not the rapture.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Not disagreeing with you. Just saying you need to temper how you phrase things because as you know full well we refer to this as the Resurrection of the dead, not the rapture.

I think the context here is important. I was responding to Armoured's post where he rudely accused Pdudgeon of teaching Protestantism. While it's true that Pdudgeon comes from a Protestant background and is relatively new to Catholicism, it's also true that she has been diligently learning the Catholic faith and has been making great strides in this effort. Judging from what I've seen of her posts, I think she probably already knows more about Catholicism than most cradle Catholics do. And she is more faithful to the Magisterium than most western Catholics. She used the word "rapture" but went on to describe a view that is consistent with the Catholic teaching on the end times and bodily resurrection. So considering her fast learning of Catholicism and that she didn't describe the "rapture" in way that was incompatible with Catholicism, I thought it was appropriate to give her the benefit of the doubt by assuming that her use of that word was only a matter of semantics.

Here's another look at the context:

of course the conclusion of what you are suggesting (live in the now, forget about the rapture) is to be on the wrong side of the door when it shuts.

the smart people are the ones who have lots of oil, are awake and watching for the Bridegroom, believing His promise that He will come for them.

OBOB. Catholics don't believe in the Rapture nonsense. So feel free to take your sanctimonious snark to a faith forum that does.

The Catholic Church differs from Protestantism in the details of what happens at the time of the rapture by not in the fact that there will be a rapture. It's in Sacred Scripture which, along with divine Tradition, is part of the Catholic Church's deposit of faith.

"then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord." - St. Paul, 1 Thess 4:17

Speaking of the OBOB faith rules, do you remember when you gave your opinion (here) that marriage is a "human invention" and called it "jibberish" to believe that God invented marriage?

 

[pdudgeon]

Maybe that's exactly what the Catholic Workers movement is trying to achieve, a God centered socialistic way of living.

i think the problem in that idea would be that this is earth---not heaven.
and as such it would wind up being man's conception of what a theistic compassionate way of life would be,
and not the real thing.
the end result would look something like a golden calf.

 

[pdudgeon]

Not disagreeing with you. Just saying you need to temper how you phrase things because as you know full well we refer to this as the Resurrection of the dead, not the rapture.

and to be perfectly fair, it was armoured--a Catholic-- in this post:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/enoch-and-elijah.7911895/page-19#post-68771723
and again here:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/enoch-and-elijah.7911895/page-21#post-68775344
who first introduced the word 'rapture' into the thread.
my use of the term was in response to that post.

so let's please lay the responsibility for the usage of the term 'rapture' in this thread where it belongs, at the feet of one Catholic. ok?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

i think the problem in that idea would be that this is earth---not heaven.
and as such it would wind up being man's conception of what a theistic compassionate way of life would be,
and not the real thing.
the end result would look something like a golden calf.

I have a problem with the idea that we shouldn't try to make this planet as good, fair and just as possible because it's not heaven. Is it really better to support political viewpoints that are the opposite to keep things bad here as a contrast to the afterlife?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I have a problem with the idea that we shouldn't try to make this planet as good, fair and just as possible because it's not heaven. Is it really better to support political viewpoints that are the opposite to keep things bad here as a contrast to the afterlife?

That's a straw man and false dichotomy. No one here has said that we shouldn't try to make the world better. We are saying that socialism is not the way to do it. We don't have to choose between having spiritual beliefs and trying to make the world better. There's another thread going on the topic of sports. Notice how no one tells sports fans that because they spend time talking about sports that they don't care about making the world better. But talk about spiritual things and you get attacked.
.