Enoch and Elijah

[MikeK]

I have a problem with the idea that we shouldn't try to make this planet as good, fair and just as possible because it's not heaven. Is it really better to support political viewpoints that are the opposite to keep things bad here as a contrast to the afterlife?

You are correct, and efforts to discredit the efforts of the Catholic Workers Movement as akin to creating a golden calf to worship are shameful. The movement was Christ-centered and aimed at doing what we could to live as He would have us. Servant of God Day's challenge to each of us should inspire us all to better seek Christ through service of His children.

 

[MikeK]

That's a straw man and false dichotomy. No one here has said that we shouldn't try to make the world better. We are saying that socialism is not the way to do it. And we don't have to choose between having spiritual beliefs and putting our spiritual beliefs into practice. There's another thread going on the topic of sports. Notice how no one tells sports fans that because they are spending time on that that they don't care about making the world better. But talk about spiritual things and you get attacked.
.

I've known people who have been attacked. I've known people who have been persecuted. Is that what you think is happening in this thread?

Nobody is advocating for socialism, it is an error to call what Servant of God Dorothy Day and modern social democrats like Bernie Sanders advocate for socialism, even if they themselves choose those terms. It is wrong to call Ms. Day's work or Chestertons's work or the USCCB's Social Justice activities work toward creating a golden calf.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

That's a straw man. And a false dichotomy. No one here has said that we shouldn't try to make the world better. We are saying that socialism is not the way to do it. And we don't have to choose between having spiritual beliefs and putting our spiritual beliefs into practice. There's another thread going on the topic of sports. Notice how no one tells sports fans that because they are spending time on that that they don't care about making the world better.
.

The post I responded to said that the problem with socialism is that it tries to make the world better, closer to a heaven on earth for all.
Consider libertarianism/objectivism. ..by definition an atheistic worldview but with the goal of the individual getting ahead vs. the community. No big goals of raising all up, yet for some reason more acceptable than socialism among some religious folks. The difference is right along these lines, the idea if making the world better vs making it comfortable for one's self...e.g. hiding away living the life of luxury in Galt's Gulch while outside the world suffers.

 

[MikeK]

The post I responded to said that the problem with socialism is that it tries to make the world better, closer to a heaven on earth for all.
Consider libertarianism/objectivism. ..by definition an atheistic worldview but with the goal of the individual getting ahead vs. the community. No big goals of raising all up, yet for some reason more acceptable than socialism among some religious folks. The difference is right along these lines, the idea if making the world better vs making it comfortable for one's self...e.g. hiding away living the life of luxury in Galt's Gulch while outside the world suffers.

Believe it or not, I've heard conservative Catholic politicians sing Ms Rand's praises. For some reason they aren't accused of trying build a world where the golden calf is worshipped, that criticism is reserved for those who are trying to build a more Chist-centered world. We live in interesting times.

 

[pdudgeon]

The post I responded to said that the problem with socialism is that it tries to make the world better, closer to a heaven on earth for all.
Consider libertarianism/objectivism. ..by definition an atheistic worldview but with the goal of the individual getting ahead vs. the community. No big goals of raising all up, yet for some reason more acceptable than socialism among some religious folks. The difference is right along these lines, the idea if making the world better vs making it comfortable for one's self...e.g. hiding away living the life of luxury in Galt's Gulch while outside the world suffers.

another strawman.
socialism, Marxism, communism, libertarianism, monarchies, dictatorships; all these are man's solutions not God's.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

another strawman.
socialism, Marxism, communism, libertarianism, monarchies, dictatorships; all these are man's solutions not God's.

What is God's solution then for how we manage this planet and care for the people on it? Capitalism?

 

[pdudgeon]

I've known people who have been attacked. I've known people who have been persecuted. Is that what you think is happening in this thread?

Nobody is advocating for socialism, it is an error to call what Servant of God Dorothy Day and modern social democrats like Bernie Sanders advocate for socialism, even if they themselves choose those terms. It is wrong to call Ms. Day's work or Chestertons's work or the USCCB's Social Justice activities work toward creating a golden calf.

strawmen again.
the work of Dorothy Day for which she was applauded was done when she left socialism.
this has been made plain in the thread.

 

[pdudgeon]

What is God's solution then for how we manage this planet and care for the people on it? Capitalism?

nope.
keep trying, you'll get there in the end.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

nope.
keep trying, you'll get there in the end.

I can't wait till the end, people are suffering today. Plus if none are right, then why are socialism and liberalism singled out as wrong.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

strawmen again.
the work of Dorothy Day for which she was applauded was done when she left socialism.
this has been made plain in the thread.

Have you read the values of the Catholic Workers movement? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is still therem

 

[pdudgeon]

I can't wait till the end, people are suffering today. Plus if none are right, then why are socialism and liberalism singled out as wrong.

then try Micah 6:8

 

[MikeK]

strawmen again.
the work of Dorothy Day for which she was applauded was done when she left socialism.
this has been made plain in the thread.

Actually, much of what she stood for her entire life - increased taxation on the rich and well-to-do, increased value of the individual, increased emphasis on unionization, etc, is exactly what many today are wrongly labeling socialism. If Bernie Sanders in a socialist, then Day was a socialist.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Socialism is a perverted gospel of the Antichrist. It sounds good, but it is in fact evil. It is utilitarian and makes the government into a god. Satan's primary method is by deception. That's why he is called the father of lies. Sacred Scripture says that he can make himself appear as an angel of light in order to deceive those who do not know the true gospel. Some of the responses in this thread further convince me that Russia has spread its error to other countries, that "people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears," and that we are in the time of the "strong delusion" that St. Paul said was to come.

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry." - St. Paul, 2 Tim 4:1-5

 

[MikeK]

Socialism is a perverted gospel of the Antichrist. It sounds good, but it is in fact evil. It is utilitarian and makes the government into a god. Satan's primary method is by deception. That's why he is called the father of lies. Sacred Scripture says that he can make himself appear as an angel of light in order to deceive those who do not know the true gospel. Some of the responses in this thread further convince me that Russia has spread its error to other countries, that "people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears," and that we are in the time of the "strong delusion" that St. Paul said was to come.

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry." - St. Paul, 2 Tim 4:1-5

You mention that some responses in his thread convince you that Russia's errors have spread. I'm probably wasting my breath with such direct questions, but I'll try anyway. Which specific posts convince you of this? Which specific doctrines, if any, of the Catholic Workers Party stem from Russia's errors? Which specific teachings, if any, of Servant of God Day do you object to?

I can't help but notice that your definition of socialism seems to be a moving target "politics that I don't like" rather than any concrete set of core policies. I have shared countless times my position and the position of Karl Marx, that the central tenant of socialism and communism are government or communal ownership of the means of production. Social Democracy, Distributism, and Capitalism all reject this ideal. Please reply with your list of what makes socialism socialism rather than some vague "makes government a God" answer which is without clear definition. That isn't what makes socialism, it is what makes socialism wrong.

Of course, it is undeniable that Russia is swinging back toward a more overtly socialist position through control of the press, nationalistic bombast, and of course, the increased state ownership of military industry, energy concerns, and lending houses. Still, you have stated that you would vote for Vladimir Putin for President of the United States - a man who by decree has undeniably moved Russia away from a modern capitalist state and towards socialist policies. How do you reconcile that position with your alleged disdain for socialism? Marx, of course, never advocated for same sex marriage and the Soviet Union treated known homosexuals brutally, so you'll have to look beyond some revisionist "socialism something something gay marriage" bit.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The following quote is intended for those who are willing to listen to the Church (added emphasis):

"Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority." - St. John XXIII, Mater et Magistra (May 15, 1961)

 

[MikeK]

The following quote is intended for those who are willing to listen to the Church (added emphasis):

"Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority." - St. John XXIII, Mater et Magistra (May 15, 1961)

Answer my questions, please, they were direct and simple. What the Pope was referring to is distinct from what Servant of God Day spoke of, what Bernie Sanders advocates for. It is, however, what Vladimir Putin is moving toward.

Unless you believe that calling something socialism is what makes it socialism, which would be a rather absurd stance.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

"Bishops, therefore, with their helpers, the priests and deacons, have taken up the service of the community, (11*) presiding in place of God over the flock,(12*) whose shepherds they are, as teachers for doctrine, priests for sacred worship, and ministers for governing.(13*) And just as the office granted individually to Peter, the first among the apostles, is permanent and is to be transmitted to his successors, so also the apostles' office of nurturing the Church is permanent, and is to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops. (14*) Therefore, the Sacred Council teaches that bishops by divine institution have succeeded to the place of the apostles, (15*) as shepherds of the Church, and he who hears them, hears Christ, and he who rejects them, rejects Christ and Him who sent Christ.(149)(16*)" - Lumen Gentium, Vatican II (added emphasis)

 

[LivingWordUnity]

2 Thessalonians 2

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Chosen for Salvation

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

 

[MikeK]

I take your refusal to directly answer questions posed to you in a spirit of goodwill and free discussion as a tacit concession that you have no argument to make. I intend to continue to be patient with you as you struggle with exchanging real, direct dialogue. Please forgive me if I occasionally show some frustration, I'm doing my best.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

"There is another explanation for the rapid diffusion of the Communistic ideas now seeping into every nation, great and small, advanced and backward, so that no corner of the earth is free from them. This explanation is to be found in a propaganda so truly diabolical that the world has perhaps never witnessed its like before. It is directed from one common center. It is shrewdly adapted to the varying conditions of diverse peoples. It has at its disposal great financial resources, gigantic organizations, international congresses, and countless trained workers. It makes use of pamphlets and reviews, of cinema, theater and radio, of schools and even universities. Little by little it penetrates into all classes of the people and even reaches the better-minded groups of the community, with the result that few are aware of the poison which increasingly pervades their minds and hearts."

- Pope Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris
.