Enoch and Elijah

[LivingWordUnity]

The rebellious will be very angry on the day that Jesus returns since they love the world just as it is, with all its wickedness.

“Thou hast reigned from the age, although the ungodly are rebellious against Thee. But now that Thou art Judge, their fury will be repressed, and will cease.” For, “The Lord hath reigned, let the people be angry.”

- St. Bede, The Explanation of the Apocalypse​

 

[pdudgeon]

Yes, of course, any rebellion that a Pope recognizes must be /the/ Rebellion. Have an Pope's ever talked about other times of Rebellion, or other ideas or practices that were previously unknown and issued similar statements, or are such statements without precedent? For instance, were similar statements ever made regarding Protestantism, or the Crusades, or the great schism? I don't expect you to sincerely research that, of course, I'm just talking

sigh. those were rejections of the church, not rebellions against the church.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The topic of End Times eschatology is analogous to the forbidden fruit. We are allowed to eat from every tree except for one. The one tree in the forest that we can't eat from is the tree of the knowledge of the date when Jesus will return.

For this cause, I say, when He [Jesus] had told all things, both the times and the seasons, and had brought it to the very doors ("for it is near," He says, "even at the doors"), He was silent as to the day. For if you seek after the day and hour, you shall not hear them of me, says He; but if of times and preludes, without hiding anything, I will tell you all exactly.

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 77 on Matthew​

 

[MikeK]

Ah, then you would also disagree with the disciples and their actions in asking Christ when the end would come,
what the signs would be, and when He was coming back???

I don't disagree with the disciples as such, they didn't know better and their questions were recorded that we could learn from them.

as for the rest of that quote above,^^ we here do not hold positions in the church that would warrant our publishing the identity of the anti-christ.
do not try to suck us into responsibilities that have not been given to us by God.

If /I/ knew the identity of the antichrist, Inwould calmly present my case and warn as many people as I could. I would put my name and reputation on the line in order to help my neighbors.

 

[MikeK]

I wait in joyful hope for the coming of Christ.

 

[pdudgeon]

I don't disagree with the disciples as such, they didn't know better and their questions were recorded that we could learn from them.

you dare to sit in judgement of the disciples?

If /I/ knew the identity of the antichrist, Inwould calmly present my case and warn as many people as I could. I would put my name and reputation on the line in order to help my neighbors.

except that you don't belive that we should spend time learning about these things. so the chances that you would know the identity of the anti-christ
would be slim to none, right?

so therefore your name and reputation would not be very likely to ever be on that line.
and you would be more likely to be found doing services for your neighbors than finding out who the anti-christ was, so that you could warn them.

isn't that called a 'strawman' argument?

 

[MikeK]

you dare to sit in judgement of the disciples?

Nope.

except that you don't belive that we should spend time learning about these things. so the chances that you would know the identity of the anti-christ
would be slim to none, right?

As good as any other church-going Christian,I figure. Those who have a preoccupation with the antichrist, or aliens, or the reality of the moon landing are far more likely to have strong opinions that they know the antichrist, that aliens exist, or that we faked the moon landing. That's the nature of obsession.

so therefore your name and reputation would not be very likely to ever be on that line.
and you would be more likely to be found doing services for your neighbors than finding out who the anti-christ was, so that you could warn them.

I don't believe people who obsess about the end times are more likely than other Christians to correctly identify the antichrist.

isn't that called a 'strawman' argument?

No, I don't believe it is.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Good point, Pdudgeon. The only ones who can recognize the Antichrist are the ones who have the spirit of truth in them and who know the signs that the prophecies in Sacred Scripture say to look for. None of the worldly will recognize him, or even if they do they will call him "good" since they have already been deceived into believing that evil is good and good evil.

 

[pdudgeon]

Good point, Pdudgeon. The only ones who can recognize the Antichrist are the ones who have the spirit of truth in them and who know the signs that the prophecies in Sacred Scripture say to look for. None of the worldly will recognize him, or even if they do they will call him "good" since they have already been deceived into believing that evil is good and good evil.

yeppers! Thank God for Spiritual Armor!

 

[Michie]

There are many antichrists in the world. Scripture plainly states that. There will be one in particular that is powerful as scripture describes. But anyone can be antichrist when they fall into error and apostasy.

 

[MikeK]

Good point, Pdudgeon. The only ones who can recognize the Antichrist are the ones who have the spirit of truth in them and who know the signs that the prophecies in Sacred Scripture say to look for. None of the worldly will recognize him, or even if they do they will call him "good" since they have already been deceived into believing that evil is good and good evil.

People who have the spirit of truth do not lie. People who have the spirit of truth embrace honesty and do not hesitate to answer questions directly. A person with a spirit of truth who thought he knew who the antichrist was would share that truth explicitly.

 

[mark46]

Yes, like I said, maybe our Popes just can't see these signs, or maybe try can and they're keeping it a big secret because reasons. These are possibilities.

bump

 

[mark46]

Here's something else that Pope Benedict XVI wrote in one of his books:

"If we open our eyes, isn't what is said in the parable [of the wicked tenants] actually a description of our present world? Isn't this precisely the logic of the modern age, of our age? Let us declare that God is dead, then we ourselves will be God. At last we no longer belong to anyone else; rather, we are simply the owners of ourselves and of the world. At last we can do what we please. We get rid of God; there is no measuring rod above us; we ourselves are our only measure. The 'vineyard' belongs to us. What happens to man and the world next? We are already beginning to see it..." - Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Jesus of Nazareth - Vol I, p. 257

"Who could fail to see here a description of our world as well, in which the Christian is threatened by an anonymous atmosphere, by 'something in the air' that wants to make the faith seem ludicrous and absurd to him? And who could fail to see the poisoning of the spiritual climate all over the world that threatens the dignity of man, indeed his very existence? The individual human being, and even communities of human beings, seem to be hopelessly at the mercy of such powers." - Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Jesus of Nazareth - Vol I, p. 175

OK, I agree with the pope.

Now , let us take the jump that the pope did NOT make.

Therefore, we are in THE end times, any more than we were in 500, 1000, 1500 or the many times in that have been suggested since the Millerites made this kind of speculation so much of a focus.
=======================

 

[LivingWordUnity]

There are many antichrists in the world. Scripture plainly states that. There will be one in particular that is powerful as scripture describes. But anyone can be anantichrist when they fall into error and apostasy.

I agree. While there's the big "A" Antichrist who Sacred Scripture foretells would come just before the Second Coming, there have been and are many small "a" antichrists who allow themselves to be dominated and deceived by Satan.

"As the saints are the body of Christ and members one of another, so also the members of the flesh of the dragon cleave to one another, and are born one from the other, and the smoke of heretical blindness generates the pride of the ungodly, which hurts with its mouth...They who in name alone are united to the Church, and who neither draw near to the altar nor the most holy place, are cast forth by the rule of the Gospel, and are joined to the nations...Not only are they driven from the Church, but they also fight against the Church itself, with the heathen as their allies..."

- St. Bede, The Explanation of the Apocalypse

 

[pdudgeon]

Nope.



As good as any other church-going Christian,I figure. Those who have a preoccupation with the antichrist, or aliens, or the reality of the moon landing are far more likely to have strong opinions that the know the antichrist, that aliens exist, or that we faked the moon landing. That's the nature of obsession.



I don't believe people who obsess about the end times are more likely than other Christians to correctly identify the antichrist.



No, I don't believe it is.

well then prhaps you had better call the Treasury Department and tell them that the methodoligy they use to teach their
personnel how to identify bogus bills is not working.
you see, most people would probably say that the best method used to detect bogus bills would be to study them, but that would be wrong.

the best method for detection is to know what a true bill looks like.
So thats what the Treasurery Department uses to train their personnel--true bills.

when we know the truth and the truth is in us, we can then recognize what is false.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

OK, I agree with the pope.

Now , let us take the jump that the pope did NOT make.

Therefore, we are in THE end times, any more than we were in 500, 1000, 1500 or the many times in that have been suggested since the Millerites made this kind of speculation so much of a focus.
=======================

Did you see when I posted this? Added emphasis in the following quotes:

"Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." - 2 Thess 2:3-4

"Is it difficult for us to see clearly reflected here the spirit of the modern rebellion against God and God's law? The leaving behind of everything we once depended on and the will to a freedom without limits?" - Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Jesus of Nazareth - Vol I (p. 204)

 

[mark46]

Why have the popes of the last 50 years, including saints and great theologians, kept this information from the people?

Either they don't know this information (that is, they disagree with the interpretation) or

They choose to keep this information from the people.

 

[MikeK]

well then prhaps you had better call the Treasury Department and tell them that the methodoligy they use to teach their
personnel how to identify bogus bills is not working.
you see, most people would probably say that the best method used to detect bogus bills would be to study them, but that would be wrong.

the best method for detection is to know what a true bill looks like.
So thats what the Treasurery Department uses to train their personnel--true bills.

when we know the truth and the truth is in us, we can then recognize what is false.

It is some people's job to determine which bills are counterfeit. Who's job is it to determine who the Antichrist is, and what should they do with that knowledge should they posess it?

 

[MikeK]

Why have the popes of the last 50 years, including saints and great theologians, kept this information from the people?

Either they don't know this information (that is, they disagree with the interpretation) or

They choose to keep this information from the people.

It's also possible that they aren't as smart as some of our members or that they lacked the spirit of truth that is so evident in some of us. That's a possibility.

 

[pdudgeon]

People who have the spirit of truth do not lie. People who have the spirit of truth embrace honesty and do not hesitate to answer questions directly. A person with a spirit of truth who thought he knew who the antichrist was would share that truth explicitly.

A person with the Spirit of truth would be subject to that Spirit first, putting both God and the truth before and above all else.
and only when or if God authorized the revelation of the name of the anti-christ, would that name then be forthcoming.

so far God has not given the authorization for the release of the name.
and that authorization would have been given to the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

not to one of us.