Emasculation

[JT912]

Well sure, I only touched on the areas I touched on because I tried to lay a foundation of understanding in general of men. So my question then is whats the difference between being a smart woman who men find intimidating and a smart man whom woman feel intimadated by. Is it the same or different? Here's the deal, women are very powerful creatures yall really are and yes sometimes it is intimidating but why? Sometimes intimidation could make a man feel, once again back to the question he always asks himself "am I good enough or have what it takes" if your smarter than of course he will feel threatened if hes not confident in who he is in the Lord.

 

[Dent]

What's interesting is that some men (many men) feel as though being called a man is justified solely because of their penis. To me, a man is someone who is characterized by much more than his genitalia. Just as a woman is someone who is characterized by much more than her vagina.

Being called a man or a woman is much more than just a gender issue. Being male and female is a gender issue. But the terms "man" and "woman" refer to much more than just gender.

Hmm... interesting. I have always made the distinction between sex and gender. Sex is the purely biological categorizations of individuals into male, female, transsexual and so on. It is the XX and XY and the morphology that they produce (i.e., reproductive organs being the most prominent). Conversely, gender is the cultural and social categorization of the sexes (e.g., boy and girl) that includes, among other things, value judgments, patterns of behavior, and so on (i.e., gender roles). Of course, the two are very closely linked and it is difficult to tease them apart.

To your point – I think the interconnection of sex and gender makes it complicated. I am a male (sex) and because I am male I am taught and assigned the gender role man. It is hard (not impossible) to be a man without being male. So, I do agree with you that man is just more than having a penis, but at the same time I think you to get to man you have to be the male sex first.

Of course, this is a single level of analysis - Man vs woman. It is an important level of analysis, but it is not all the levels that you can explore to understand an individual or how that individual interacts with others. However, knowing you, I probably did not need to mention that.

 

[Tamara224]

Anyways I'm sure this wasn't a helpful post and sorry for "ranting" or whatever in your thread Tamara, hope you find your answers.

Don't apologize! I think you added to the discussion and I appreciate your contribution.


I don't think all guys are suffering from "emasculation syndrome" (if I can call it that).

The examples in the OP were meant to be a bit on the hyperbolic side as a form of rhetoric to get the discussion rolling. I didn't intend for anyone to think that I think it applies to all men, everywhere.

I'm intentionally speaking in generalities because it's just the nature of this type of topic.

I don't think any guy who doesn't match the stereotype is weird or deficient.

 

[Tamara224]

Wow. Think we can cram a few more stereotypes into this thread?

The simple answer to why there is no female counterpart to emasculation has already been touched on, but I thing it deserves repeating and expounding. We are in a patriarchal culture that says being a man is good and being a woman is not. From 'throw (or hit) like a girl' to the 'B word', nothing insults a man like comparing him to a woman.

We see it still in some professions. Male nurses, administrative assistants, and housekeepers are still rare and frequently mocked.

Good points!

I wonder why society has shaped into this.

I find myself wishing that men could stop seeing women as rivals and start seeing us as assets and allies.

In relationships, especially, I am holding out for a man who sees my strengths as adding to his own, rather than taking away from them. If I'm a wee bit smarter than him, he will be proud and rejoice that I'm using those brain cells for him (not against him).

It's like a strong nation allying with another strong nation. They're positively formidable together. Imagine a strong country that was only willing to ally with weak countries because it always wanted to feel superior.

 

[Niels]

P.S. I hope we can discuss this like adults. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, meant to be an insult to men. I am honestly bemused and seeking insight into the male mind. Kthx.

Most of the assumptions in the OP strike me as puerile, but I'll try.

More likely than not, the word "emasculated" is being used as a catch-all phrase for something negative. When a man is humbled, he feels humbled. He doesn't actually feel emasculated. Although the term may not anatomically apply to women, the feeling of being humbled is essentially the same regardless of gender.

 

[PassionFruit]

I can understand that. They are awesome. But, how empowered do women feel when they can not have children? That sense of identity and empowerment might be lost, right?

It goes back to how many women are raised to believe that they all inherently want children someday. Part of a woman's identity is tied to her ability to have children. So bascially it's like if you can't have children you're basically not a "real" woman. So you're correct about that sense of identity being lost. If society would stop telling women their identities are tied to their wombs things would be much better.

Wow. Think we can cram a few more stereotypes into this thread?

The simple answer to why there is no female counterpart to emasculation has already been touched on, but I thing it deserves repeating and expounding. We are in a patriarchal culture that says being a man is good and being a woman is not. From 'throw (or hit) like a girl' to the 'B word', nothing insults a man like comparing him to a woman.

We see it still in some professions. Male nurses, administrative assistants, and housekeepers are still rare and frequently mocked.

Yes and I agree. And among other things, don't be a guy who likes fashion or anything like that, you could be branded as a wimp or worse. Of course one could make the argument that women are better suited for those postions because of our 'inherent' traits.

 

[Tamara224]

Most of the assumptions in the OP strike me as puerile, but I'll try.

Which assumptions would those be and in what way are they puerile?

(And FTR, I don't feel like less of a woman because a man just told me I'm being childish )

More likely than not, the word "emasculated" is being used as a catch-all phrase for something negative. When a man is humbled, he feels humbled. He doesn't actually feel emasculated. Although the term may not anatomically apply to women, the feeling of being humbled is essentially the same regardless of gender.

Then why use the word "emasculate" if that isn't what is meant?

There's a perfectly good word for what you're describing: Humiliate.

Maybe you missed the point of the OP: Why does being humiliated make (some, many) men have a gender identity crisis? Why do some men feel it as an attack on their masculinity instead of their overall personality?

 

[Dent]

But a woman not being able to have a children is an actual, physical de-feminization. Just the same as a woman may feel less of a woman after a mastectomy or hysterectomy.

Of course we would expect men to feel emasculated if they actually have been castrated. Or it they are unable to have children. We recognize that reproductive ability is closely linked with feelings of gender identity.


But when a man feels less of a man for something that doesn't actually touch on his manhood it's a different issue, really. KWIM?

I am not sure I agree. You do not stop being a woman because you can't have kids. Adopted children don't call their mom 'dad' and as a man I still see you as a woman. What has changed is the way you see yourself the way you identify yourself. But, the point is taken. Gender and sex is so closely tied to physiology.

 

[Tamara224]

I am not sure I agree. You do not stop being a woman because you can't have kids. Adopted children don't call their mom 'dad' and as a man I still see you as a woman. What has changed is the way you see yourself the way you identify yourself. But, the point is taken. Gender and sex is so closely tied to physiology.

Yeah, I think we're in agreement. I don't think barren women are less women - but they feel like it. It certainly has an effect on how people view themselves.

 

[Dent]

It goes back to how many women are raised to believe that they all inherently want children someday. Part of a woman's identity is tied to her ability to have children. So bascially it's like if you can't have children you're basically not a "real" woman. So you're correct about that sense of identity being lost. If society would stop telling women their identities are tied to their wombs things would be much better.

I totally agree. I also think that this is a pressure also felt by men to a lesser extent. The expectation to actually have kids may not be there, but the expectation to be able to have kids is there.

 

[PassionFruit]

I totally agree. I also think that this is a pressure also felt by men to a lesser extent. The expectation to actually have kids may not be there, but the expectation to be able to have kids is there.

Yes, I mean after all, men are raised to believe they must spread their seed. I've definitely seen that stereotype that if your a guy who can't impregnate a woman or something, then you're a not "real man."

 

[Stravinsk]

There isn't a word for de-feminized because society, in general, views feminine traits as weak or subversive. And vaginas should be celebrated, don't you think? Vaginas bring life into the world. That's a powerful thing to be nurturer and bringer of life. I love and respect men, but I am empowered by my role as a woman and by my genitals. Because they are awesome.

Oh man...I haven't yet all this thread...but this post had me out of my chair laughing. That's a friendly laugh, btw. I'm still chuckling.

 

[Stravinsk]

What's up with this?

Why are men so concerned with it?

It seems to me that every time a guy feels like he's been humbled for whatever reason, he feels as though he has been castrated. And I just don't get it.

A girl thinks you're stupid: You feel like she cut off your penis. Why is that? That's not where you keep your brain. An insult to your intelligence shouldn't have any relation at all to the state of your, er... 'manhood' (as the romance novelists put it).

A woman doesn't let you pay for her meal: You feel emasculated. Why? Were you planning on paying for the meal with sexual favors?

A woman shows you up in front of the boss: You feel inferior and then emasculated. Why is that? Your skills at your job (unless you're a porn star) don't have anything to do with the phallus.


Isn't it interesting that there isn't any similar word for women? (At least that I can now think of - if someone has some insight on this, please share). When a woman is degraded, humiliated, shown-up, or treated as inferior she doesn't complain about feeling hysterectomied.


Maybe this is just something I, as a woman, will never understand. The relationship between men and their penises is incomprehensible to women?


But... I'm all ears if any of the guys (or gals with better insight than myself) would like to shed some light on this phenomenon....






P.S. I hope we can discuss this like adults. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, meant to be an insult to men. I am honestly bemused and seeking insight into the male mind. Kthx.

Are you sure you are not making some assumptions between the feeling one has when their ego has been flattened, or when they are humiliated in front of their peers and the feeling one has of being emasculated?

No one, men or women, likes it when their pride has been smashed or when they are humiliated in front of others, especially if that humiliation has some percieved "gain" to the humiliator (be it male or female).

Now if you're talking about in RELATIONSHIPS - well - who likes, man or woman, to be discouraged? Who likes to be made to feel unworthy or unwanted or second rate? I've seen some emasculated men in relationships with their women - it is typically by some very headstrong and strongwilled woman who enjoys making them feel bad about themselves with put downs, comparisons etc - and has found a way to do it, through the intamacy that comes when you open yourself up to one another.

Women may not be emasculated or whatever the equivalent word is for their gender, but are they not equally destroyed when a man does the same thing in a relationship? Are they not made to feel less like a worthy woman if their man is comparing them to other women, if their man is putting them down(discouraging) them, instead of building them up?

 

[JT912]

Your last sentence is what saves you here... but only slightly. How do you reconcile these assertions with what is mentioned in Genesis where Eve is concerned? She was created to be a helpmate of Adam, which means that she must be pretty capable on her own. She wasn't looking to be rescued nor saved. You mention how Adam was created and by that, you are making assertions on how man was "originally designed," so to speak. I will give you that, but when it comes to Eve, you are way off here.



Alright so what I posted before went a little 2 deep without a proper defense? How is it that all those assertions could be made off one scripture? Absolutely, women are capable on their own and were created to be a helpmate for Adam thats 100% correct I agree, and your right I did not give a scriptural account for Eve I apologize for that. But remember when Eve ate the fruit? Adam was right there with her and yet he did not do anything to stop her, we all know the story but lets ask some questions why didn't Eve say no to the serpent and stand up for herself? Secondly why didnt Adam do anything to stop her? If he truly loved her and saw her talking to a snake for crying outloud why didn't he kill it. Now it is my personal belief as well as some other that after that moment something drastically changed. Women from that point on began controlling their environment. We see that today, who controls the environment on the sitcoms we watch? Who in many cases has or tries to have the power in marriages and relationships? Why was Jezebel so controlling? it all began here in the garden. Adam let Eve down by not protecting her against the serpent, though she could have protected herself it is my belief that she must have felt betrayed and decided to take care of herself. Thats why we have all these feminist movements and independent women who say they don't need a man, all of these attitudes can be traced to the garden.

 

[Niels]

Which assumptions would those be and in what way are they puerile?

(And FTR, I don't feel like less of a woman because a man just told me I'm being childish )

The idea that men are all about their penises etc. seems juvenile to me. Although men and women are sexual beings, our private parts don't say much about who we are as people.

Then why use the word "emasculate" if that isn't what is meant?

There's a perfectly good word for what you're describing: Humiliate.

Maybe you missed the point of the OP: Why does being humiliated make (some, many) men have a gender identity crisis? Why do some men feel it as an attack on their masculinity instead of their overall personality?

You tell me. You're the one that mentioned it.

"Emasculate" isn't a term that I use on a regular basis. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard my dad, my older brother, my uncles etc. use it. Why should they? There are perfectly good words to describe what they really mean.

That said, I wouldn't assume that a man has gender issues just because of his choice of words. If a guy said that he felt emasculated, I'd think that he's using hyperbole. If he actually feels emasculated rather than humiliated (or something similar), then he should probably seek psychological help.

 

[Tamara224]

Are you sure you are not making some assumptions between the feeling one has when their ego has been flattened, or when they are humiliated in front of their peers and the feeling one has been emasculated?

No, I don't think I'm conflating the two. My question has to do with why some or many men feel emasculated when they feel humiliated even though the thing that has caused the humiliation has nothing at all to do with the man's masculinity or sexuality.

Hence, my examples... I've heard men claim to feel emasculated in similar circumstances before. And in my mind those things have nothing to do with their penises or their masculinity as a whole. And so I don't understand why that feeling of inadequacy, inferiority or humiliation should be tied up in the man's mind with his masculinity.

No one, men or women, likes it when their pride has been smashed or when they are humiliated in front of others, especially if that humiliation has some percieved "gain" to the humiliator .

Of course not.

Now if you're talking about in RELATIONSHIPS - well - who likes, man or woman, to be discouraged? Who likes to be made to feel unworthy or unwanted or second rate? I've seen some emasculated men in relationships with their women - it is typically by some very headstrong and strongwilled woman who enjoys making them feel bad about themselves with put downs, comparisons etc - and has found a way to do it, through the intamacy that comes when you open yourself up to one another. [/qutoe]

Sure, I see your point.

In my OP I was thinking more along the lines of things that happen to men that aren't intentionally malicious.

FTR: headstrong and strong-willed women aren't always evil.

Women may not be emasculated or whatever the equivalent word is for their gender, but are they not equally destroyed when a man does the same thing in a relationship? Are they not made to feel less like a worthy woman if their man is comparing them to other women, if their man is putting them down(discouraging) them, instead of building them up?

Yes, but like I said in the thread earlier.... there is a word for that: humiliation. It applies both to men and women.

What I'm really trying to explore is this concept of men feeling everything is a threat or challenge to their masculinity.

Why, in other words, does humiliation = emasculation for men.

 

[Tamara224]

The idea that men are all about their penises etc. seems juvenile to me. Although men and women are sexual beings, our private parts don't say much about who we are as people.

Well, I agree that it's childish and silly. Hence the way I was kinda poking fun at it a little. (With the assumption that it was safe to do because I don't think any of the guys at CF are quite so enamored of their penises as many of the men I run into on a daily basis in real life.)

But, come on... you really haven't seen a trend in our society for guys to be a little.... uh... overly conscious of and fond of their man parts?

You tell me. You're the one that mentioned it.

I mentioned it in order to open discussion and get other people's input.

"Emasculate" isn't a term that I use on a regular basis. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard my dad, my older brother, my uncles etc. use it. Why should they? There are perfectly good words to describe what they really mean.

That said, I wouldn't assume that a man has gender issues just because of his choice of words. If a guy said that he felt emasculated, I'd think that he's using hyperbole. If he actually feels emasculated rather than humiliated (or something similar), then he should probably seek psychological help.

Okay. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[JT912]

Well in that respect I'll just say that as a male I can admit that yeah we feel threatened sometimes when women do a better job than us because we have been socialized atleast in America to value men higher than women in society. Society has taught us that it's not because men choose to be that way.

 

[Stravinsk]

Yes, but like I said in the thread earlier.... there is a word for that: humiliation. It applies both to men and women.

What I'm really trying to explore is this concept of men feeling everything is a threat or challenge to their masculinity.

Why, in other words, does humiliation = emasculation for men.

It doesn't. Not for me, anyway. Humiliation is different.

The answer to your question may be found in asking gay men and looking at specific relationships they've had with significant women in their lives.

 

[Tamara224]

Alright so what I posted before went a little 2 deep without a proper defense? How is it that all those assertions could be made off one scripture? Absolutely, women are capable on their own and were created to be a helpmate for Adam thats 100% correct I agree, and your right I did not give a scriptural account for Eve I apologize for that. But remember when Eve ate the fruit? Adam was right there with her and yet he did not do anything to stop her,

Don't read into it. The Bible doesn't say that Adam was right there with her when she ate. It doesn't say where Adam was at that moment.

we all know the story but lets ask some questions why didn't Eve say no to the serpent and stand up for herself?

Because she was deceived.

Secondly why didnt Adam do anything to stop her? If he truly loved her and saw her talking to a snake for crying outloud why didn't he kill it.

We don't know that he saw her talking to the serpent. In fact, it's unlikely that he did. His silence is best explained by his absence.

Now it is my personal belief as well as some other that after that moment something drastically changed. Women from that point on began controlling their environment.

You think women were the ones controlling the oppression of women for centuries?

We see that today, who controls the environment on the sitcoms we watch?

The overwhelming majority of writers, producers and directors in Hollywood are men.

Who in many cases has or tries to have the power in marriages and relationships?

Men.

I'm not sure what version of history you've been reading but you need to get a different source.

Why was Jezebel so controlling?

Controlling? She wasn't any more controlling than Ahab was. They were both evil people. Being controlling was not Jezebel's sin.

it all began here in the garden. Adam let Eve down by not protecting her against the serpent, though she could have protected herself it is my belief that she must have felt betrayed and decided to take care of herself.

You're forgetting what God said to Eve. He said that her desire would be for her husband and he would rule over her. That was the curse that was the result of her sin.

It's a curse that men try to dominate women.

Thats why we have all these feminist movements and independent women who say they don't need a man, all of these attitudes can be traced to the garden.

Yeah, except for there's at least a 6000 year gap between the Garden and feminism.

And the history of humanity in between shows that overwhelmingly it's been men dominating women and controlling everything, not vice versa.

If it were true that the result of the fall is women being power hungry, controlling and domineering then why has society always been patriarchal?