Emasculation

[CrusaderKing]

Eh.... I haven't seen any women up in arms over "I Love Lucy" reruns.

I'm sure they exist, but I'm mostly referring to what's modern.

I want to understand why feeling inferior to women makes you feel like less of a man. How does that effect your manhood?

I'm against anyone who is actively trying to make me feel inferior, male or female. I realize that I'm not the best at everything and there are plenty of people, male and female, that run circles around me intellectually. That doesn't bother me. What I dislike more than anything is a disrespectful attitude that can come from arrogance or just downright snobbish behavior.

Now in terms of emasculation, this is particularly special. I'm not trying to turn the thread into a gender war, but I'm simply saying where I see emasculation being a problem. This is part of what I'm talking about when it comes to respect. If we were talking about men oppressing women, then I'd bring up some similar topics. I don't necessarily find it fun when I see either gender degraded through disrespect or physical abuse.

I realize I can't get my way all the time and I can't always have all the correct answers. Big whoop. Respect is still a big factor in all interactions with your fellow humans.

 

[white dove]

I think you have to understand that it is symbolic of being a man and all that that entails. It is kind of like the ‘badge’ that lets you into the best club in the world. It is a club that places importance on things like power, wealth, virility, athletic ability, talent, wisdom, competition, and dominance. For some men, demonstrating a deficiency in one of these areas is like ‘revoking’ the badge you use to get into the club. For these men, it is am important, core piece to understanding ones place in the world, how one should act, and who one is. Removing the symbol of that is not trivial. It is not right – it is not wrong – it just is (for some men).

What's interesting is that some men (many men) feel as though being called a man is justified solely because of their penis. To me, a man is someone who is characterized by much more than his genitalia. Just as a woman is someone who is characterized by much more than her vagina.

Being called a man or a woman is much more than just a gender issue. Being male and female is a gender issue. But the terms "man" and "woman" refer to much more than just gender.

 

[Inkachu]

I can understand that. They are awesome. But, how empowered do women feel when they can not have children? That sense of identity and empowerment might be lost, right?

This is another thing I don't understand. I don't understand why or how a woman (or a couple) feels like they've "failed" if they can't have biological children. Well, I DO understand their thinking, it's just nonsensical and ridiculous to me. Take all that energy and time and money you're putting into trying to figure out what's wrong with your ovaries, and foster or adopt a precious child who is desperately in need of a family. Frankly, I'd be just fine if I were sterile. I'd be just fine if I had to have a hysterectomy. My womanliness doesn't lie in my ability to have children, it lies in my heart, mind, and spirit, as who God made me, and who I am in Him. Huzzah.

 

[Rhye]

What's interesting is that some men (many men) feel as though being called a man is justified solely because of their penis. To me, a man is someone who is characterized by much more than his genitalia. Just as a woman is someone who is characterized by much more than her vagina.
Being called a man or a woman is much more than just a gender issue. Being male and female is a gender issue. But the terms "man" and "woman" refer to much more than just gender.

YES! And ten times YES!

 

[Tamara224]

I can understand that. They are awesome. But, how empowered do women feel when they can not have children? That sense of identity and empowerment might be lost, right?

But a woman not being able to have a children is an actual, physical de-feminization. Just the same as a woman may feel less of a woman after a mastectomy or hysterectomy.

Of course we would expect men to feel emasculated if they actually have been castrated. Or it they are unable to have children. We recognize that reproductive ability is closely linked with feelings of gender identity.


But when a man feels less of a man for something that doesn't actually touch on his manhood it's a different issue, really. KWIM?

 

[JT912]

Well, part of understanding your question is to first understand how God originaly created men. In today's world, society has attempted to define masculinity but consequently society has failed. It all goes back to the garden of Eden, when God first created Adam He created him to rule and reign over the earth, (Gen 1:26) to be adventurous and dangerous. Always wanting to take risks. The true masculine heart is born to fight, and be wild. For the man there is always a beauty to rescue and for the woman a prince to save her. The true Femenine heart is to be pursued and rescued. Though these traits are not all inclusive for both male and female but for now I only mentioned a few. Ok so here's the deal, men do what they do to impress women because deep inside they are trying to win her heart. He may not notice or even admit that that is his goal but nonetheless it is. The problem is that society has taught the male to go after sex and be a "player" or on the contrary to find a wife take care of her and love her. Why does he want to pay for dinner, because #1 society says thats what he's supposed to do, secondly because his friends or media has suggested that perhaps he will get sex out of it (despite popular belief not all men only want sex) and #2 because he's trying to honestly impress you and win your heart. Why when humbled do men feel emasculated? Before men are men, men are haunted with the question "Do I have what it takes?" "I'm a good enough." For the woman it may be "Am I worth being rescued" "Will anyone ever see that I'm beautiful?" Thats why fathers are important because boys will learn masculinity from their fathers, it's their duty to pass it on to them. When men grow up without fathers this is problematic for the male because now he has not been validated by a male figure. Being humbled to a man often times can be interpreted by him that he's not good enough, remember the question all boys ask themselves growing up mentioned earlier. Bottom line, when a male feels threatened in his abilities to perform or succeed its because he is interpreting that as though he is not good enough or that he is not good enough or has what it takes. I hope this helps God bless feel free to msg me, I also encourage you to read Wild at heart and Captivated by John Eldredge.

 

[broken_one]

Sorry broken, I'm having trouble following you. What is it that is like putting a man in a box? What is forcing a guy to say that?

Maybe I'm just being dense today, but I feel like I missed something...

You're basically hurting his core and forcing him to "go internal" to figure out what problem he has.....this is a lot like if women were called old or ugly or something like that. There is a strike to a weak point, so he's going to feel it more than if you called him lazy or something.

Don't worry.....the dots are still connecting a bit in my mind. It's still early.

 

[white dove]

I can understand that. They are awesome. But, how empowered do women feel when they can not have children? That sense of identity and empowerment might be lost, right?

You bring up a great point. Nobody knows what it is like, unless they have been through that. I nearly went through a similar type of loss of my "womanhood" almost 5 years ago. I was afraid I had breast cancer and in-between doctor appointments and during that long-span of time of uncertainty, I had to make peace with potentially losing what I felt was part of what defined me as a woman. I had to ultimately come to the realization that my womanhood extended beyond my breasts (and those were just my BREASTS, not even my reproductive organs!). So, I guess that is where I am coming from.

 

[Tamara224]

Well, part of understanding your question is to first understand how God originaly created men. In today's world, society has attempted to define masculinity but consequently society has failed. It all goes back to the garden of Eden, when God first created Adam He created him to rule and reign over the earth, (Gen 1:26) to be adventurous and dangerous. Always wanting to take risks. The true masculine heart is born to fight, and be wild. For the man there is always a beauty to rescue and for the woman a prince to save her. The true Femenine heart is to be pursued and rescued. Though these traits are not all inclusive for both male and female but for now I only mentioned a few. Ok so here's the deal, men do what they do to impress women because deep inside they are trying to win her heart. He may not notice or even admit that that is his goal but nonetheless it is. The problem is that society has taught the male to go after sex and be a "player" or on the contrary to find a wife take care of her and love her. Why does he want to pay for dinner, because #1 society says thats what he's supposed to do, secondly because his friends or media has suggested that perhaps he will get sex out of it (despite popular belief not all men only want sex) and #2 because he's trying to honestly impress you and win your heart. Why when humbled do men feel emasculated? Before men are men, men are haunted with the question "Do I have what it takes?" "I'm a good enough." For the woman it may be "Am I worth being rescued" "Will anyone ever see that I'm beautiful?" Thats why fathers are important because boys will learn masculinity from their fathers, it's their duty to pass it on to them. When men grow up without fathers this is problematic for the male because now he has not been validated by a male figure. Being humbled to a man often times can be interpreted by him that he's not good enough, remember the question all boys ask themselves growing up mentioned earlier. Bottom line, when a male feels threatened in his abilities to perform or succeed its because he is interpreting that as though he is not good enough or that he is not good enough or has what it takes. I hope this helps God bless feel free to msg me, I also encourage you to read Wild at heart and Captivated by John Eldredge.

Not all male-female interaction is sexual or romantic.

Not all men approach me with thoughts of how to win me or rescue me. I deal with men daily in the workplace. I know that oftentimes they see me as a threat to their masculinity when I'm smarter than they are or better at my job than they are.

 

[Tamara224]

You're basically hurting his core and forcing him to "go internal" to figure out what problem he has.....this is a lot like if women were called old or ugly or something like that. There is a strike to a weak point, so he's going to feel it more than if you called him lazy or something.

Don't worry.....the dots are still connecting a bit in my mind. It's still early.

You mean by calling a guy stupid I would be forcing him to "go internal"?

What about when I don't call him that but he just feels that way around me because it's obvious that I'm smarter than him?

(I know that sounds really conceited but.... it's like me feeling ugly just because I'm standing next to Scarlett Johansson... it would be silly for her to pretend like she doesn't know she's more beautiful than I am).


And again, I wonder why the guy associates this with feeling that he is less of a man....

 

[JT912]

Whats the issue men have with thier penis? Well I honestly don't know, being a male myself I know that many joke around about this issue lol. But honestly I think it relates to the question of "Am I good enough, do I have what it takes" Society tells men that bigger is better it's sort of like the craze going on with breast implants, men want to know that they have what it takes, and women want to know that they are beautiful. Society says get a boob job and you'll be pretty just like it says to men get larger to satisfy.

 

[leothelioness]

Just an random observation, but when women start to infringe upon predominantly male "territory", watch out. Things can get ugly real fast.

 

[broken_one]

So now we've entered the largest anxious question that every man has generally every weekend night...."does size matter?"

And really there isn't anything any guy can do to assure himself other than when he finally takes of his drawers and she says "this shouldn't be too bad....my last boyfriend was a lot bigger."

 

[CrusaderKing]

It's not the same circumstance, but the feeling is pretty close. It's like putting a man into a child's box.....it isn't very nice. You're forcing a guy to be like "wait, what? Is she trying to put me down or something?". And then we get upset.

Well, what do you know? I think we're hitting on a very important point here. It's pretty easy to say masculinity is under attack, but that's a blanket statement that isn't true. Is that much different from saying femininity is under attack? I'm sure some women out there can provide further enlightenment on this.

From my perspective, masculinity and ideas of what is masculine have changed over the centuries. In Ancient Greece (at least before Alexander), beard growth was seen as a sign of virility. Facial hair on men was something to be expected in the 19th century. Nowadays, what's the professional look? Clean cut and baby faced. Of course, beards have made a comeback, but it still doesn't change the fact being clean shaven for a job interview and even some jobs is a must. I have to say that stinks, but it's a must if you have to wear a gas mask in your job.

But some masculine things are still held up to high standards. Contact sports is one such example. Others are just misunderstood.

 

[white dove]

Well, part of understanding your question is to first understand how God originaly created men. In today's world, society has attempted to define masculinity but consequently society has failed. It all goes back to the garden of Eden, when God first created Adam He created him to rule and reign over the earth, (Gen 1:26) to be adventurous and dangerous. Always wanting to take risks. The true masculine heart is born to fight, and be wild. For the man there is always a beauty to rescue and for the woman a prince to save her. The true Femenine heart is to be pursued and rescued. Though these traits are not all inclusive for both male and female but for now I only mentioned a few.

Your last sentence is what saves you here... but only slightly. How do you reconcile these assertions with what is mentioned in Genesis where Eve is concerned? She was created to be a helpmate of Adam, which means that she must be pretty capable on her own. She wasn't looking to be rescued nor saved. You mention how Adam was created and by that, you are making assertions on how man was "originally designed," so to speak. I will give you that, but when it comes to Eve, you are way off here.

Ok so here's the deal, men do what they do to impress women because deep inside they are trying to win her heart. He may not notice or even admit that that is his goal but nonetheless it is. The problem is that society has taught the male to go after sex and be a "player" or on the contrary to find a wife take care of her and love her. Why does he want to pay for dinner, because #1 society says thats what he's supposed to do, secondly because his friends or media has suggested that perhaps he will get sex out of it (despite popular belief not all men only want sex) and #2 because he's trying to honestly impress you and win your heart. Why when humbled do men feel emasculated? Before men are men, men are haunted with the question "Do I have what it takes?" "I'm a good enough." For the woman it may be "Am I worth being rescued" "Will anyone ever see that I'm beautiful?" Thats why fathers are important because boys will learn masculinity from their fathers, it's their duty to pass it on to them. When men grow up without fathers this is problematic for the male because now he has not been validated by a male figure. Being humbled to a man often times can be interpreted by him that he's not good enough, remember the question all boys ask themselves growing up mentioned earlier. Bottom line, when a male feels threatened in his abilities to perform or succeed its because he is interpreting that as though he is not good enough or that he is not good enough or has what it takes. I hope this helps God bless feel free to msg me, I also encourage you to read Wild at heart and Captivated by John Eldredge.

So basically, even if a man is not competing in front of other men for a woman, it still comes down to this erroneous belief? Everyone has issues of not measuring up or not feeling good enough for others. Everyone, regardless of gender.

 

[Inkachu]

I don't think I should keep reading this thread, so I'm unsubscribing. Good luck, everyone!

 

[AlexeiKaramazov]

ITT: Women complain that men aren't women.

 

[white dove]

Whats the issue men have with thier penis? Well I honestly don't know, being a male myself I know that many joke around about this issue lol. But honestly I think it relates to the question of "Am I good enough, do I have what it takes" Society tells men that bigger is better it's sort of like the craze going on with breast implants, men want to know that they have what it takes, and women want to know that they are beautiful. Society says get a boob job and you'll be pretty just like it says to men get larger to satisfy.

It's equivalent to busting out the big guns. Sorry to be a bit crass, but that's how I view it. I think it's in our human nature to want to feel dominance over others. By having "the biggest and therefore the best" means exactly that - we are the biggest and therefore the best. Again, men are conditioned to desire that satisfaction more than women.

 

[Rory]

I have no answer for you on this. None of the things you describe would make me feel like that.

These threads lately though have been making me wonder, I've always known I'm not a typical guy but maybe its more than that, maybe I have something wrong with me.

You talk of guys feeling threatened by smarter women, that doesn't bother me, I'd like to be on the same level as a girl I'm dating or married to but if she was smarter I don't see why I should feel like less of a man for that. I've dated both smarter women and frankly dumber, and if I had to pick one or the other instead of an equal I'd much more prefer smarter. The not so smart ones get on my nerves, I still treat them with respect and patience if I ever need to explain things or whatever, but it gets weary and I don't know why a guy would want to prefer such a case.

The paying for a meal thing, I'd like to do this for women due to some old fashion beliefs I have towards dating, but if she insisted on paying hers or even for the whole thing I wouldn't take it as a blow to my manhood. Women want equality and I respect that, if it was a constant thing I'd say something about it but not out of hurt pride, just I'd rather keep things equal for our relationship just so it's fair.

Showing me up in front of a boss, if she did it maliciously then I'd probably be a bit upset with her over being mean but not because she is female. If it was done without the intent of being mean then I'd admire her for doing something I couldn't, why shouldn't a woman be able to do some things better than her male counterparts?

Like I was saying, I know my views are not typical of a guy, some women may say it's a good thing, some men may think my views are violation of Man Law. Really I don't care much if anyone male or female thinks less of me for these views, I don't need their acceptance. Realizing just how different it seems I am from the norm though, does bother me in a more general sense, like maybe thats why I only end up in emotionally damaging relationships with abusive women, I don't know how to turn off that respect factor, maybe it's psychological and I need help. Who knows.

Anyways I'm sure this wasn't a helpful post and sorry for "ranting" or whatever in your thread Tamara, hope you find your answers.

 

[IzzyPop]

Wow. Think we can cram a few more stereotypes into this thread?

The simple answer to why there is no female counterpart to emasculation has already been touched on, but I thing it deserves repeating and expounding. We are in a patriarchal culture that says being a man is good and being a woman is not. From 'throw (or hit) like a girl' to the 'B word', nothing insults a man like comparing him to a woman.

We see it still in some professions. Male nurses, administrative assistants, and housekeepers are still rare and frequently mocked.