Ellen White: Inspired?

[9Rock9]

In case you do not know who Ellen White was, she is one of the founders of the 7th Day Adventist Church and is often considered a prophet by this denomination. Her writings are considered inspired, but there is some debate within the church over what exactly that means in relation to the Bible.

I've been looking for a nuanced, unbiased discussion about White, and whether she is actually inspired.

What are your thoughts?

 

[BobRyan]

In case you do not know who Ellen White was, she is one of the founders of the 7th Day Adventist Church and is often considered a prophet by this denomination. Her writings are considered inspired, but there is some debate within the church over what exactly that means in relation to the Bible.

I've been looking for a nuanced, unbiased discussion about White, and whether she is actually a false prophet.

What are your thoughts?

I am SDA so my views may be considered biased - and of course I accept the statement that Ellen White is an example of a true prophet, someone who had the real 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy also mentioned in 1 Cor 14 and Eph 4..

In any case the Bible does speak about prophets and the gift of prophecy.

A good example of a major prophetic statement by Ellen White can be found at this link Chapter 40 of the book Great Controversy -- The Great Controversy

As SDAs we always say all doctrine is to stand or fall "sola scriptura" and the Bible says that all prophets must be tested against well established doctrine that has been tested sola scriptura as we see in Acts 17:11 and in Gal 1:6-9.

Whether one is talking about Ellen White or not does not matter when it comes to what the Bible teaches about the gift of prophecy. The Bible does not say "the gift of prophecy works like this and this... unless the prophet is Ellen White".

So we have 1 Cor 12 for the gift of prophecy and we have Numbers 12:

Numbers 12:6 He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.

Under the Theocracy of Israel false prophets were to be stoned and the reason for that is not "well if you have an incorrect idea in your head you should be stoned" - but rather it was based on the fact that the message from God to that prophet is infallible since God is the source and not the prophet. So anyone who claims they got a direct message from God and that message contradicts the Bible or is proven false then that is proof that they are a false prophet.

Of course Jonah was not a false prophet even though his prediction did not come true. And that is because of the Jeremiah 18 principle of conditional prophecy. Jonah does not specify 'The condition' in his prophecy -- but it was there all the same.

 

[BobRyan]

In case you do not know who Ellen White was, she is one of the founders of the 7th Day Adventist Church and is often considered a prophet by this denomination. Her writings are considered inspired, but there is some debate within the church over what exactly that means in relation to the Bible.

Within the SDA church it means she was inspired in the same way as Agabus in the book of Acts or any other prophet that did not write scripture.

All prophets are inspired by God if they are true prophets so the church responds to the message of all true prophets - as a message from God and not "a message from faulty human making his/her best human guess"

 

[d taylor]

-
​

She can not be a false prophet, as she is not even a prophet to begin with.
She would be a false teacher.

 

[concretecamper]

In case you do not know who Ellen White was, she is one of the founders of the 7th Day Adventist Church and is often considered a prophet by this denomination. Her writings are considered inspired, but there is some debate within the church over what exactly that means in relation to the Bible.

I've been looking for a nuanced, unbiased discussion about White, and whether she is actually a false prophet.

What are your thoughts?

She is no different than Luther, Henry VIII, Calvin, Zigwhatever, Smith, or the 10s of thousands who started their version of Christianity.

 

[Blade]

In case you do not know who Ellen White was, she is one of the founders of the 7th Day Adventist Church and is often considered a prophet by this denomination. Her writings are considered inspired, but there is some debate within the church over what exactly that means in relation to the Bible.

I've been looking for a nuanced, unbiased discussion about White, and whether she is actually inspired.

What are your thoughts?

Why not? Are the "real" inspired the ones we agree with? We forget there is none righteous and all have fallen. We all believe something someone else calls false doctrine. So did she believe Christ came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose from the dead 3days later and is the only way to the Father?

Now that being said all one has to do is quote things she has said and then try as you might you can not back it up by scripture. For me God always backs its up by His word but it seems for some a vision is all one needs to prove something they believed.

Now just because a bunch of people call you a prophet yet you call your self a messenger does not make you a prophet. If.. we are going according to the word of God there are a few.. that means more then one gift that must be in a true prophets life. Today oh wow there are so many so called prophets when asked about "gifts" you will hear things like "I am not kind of prophet" So a true prophet with everything I have read and what she has said and saw..... she was not a prophet that does not mean she didn't have gifts.

What some do today is if they are used in the "gift of prophecy" then run with "ooh I'm a prophet". Not how it works. So was she inspired? Sure but not in everything somethings she was deceived.

 

[9Rock9]

Why not? Are the "real" inspired the ones we agree with? We forget there is none righteous and all have fallen. We all believe something someone else calls false doctrine. So did she believe Christ came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose from the dead 3days later and is the only way to the Father?

Now that being said all one has to do is quote things she has said and then try as you might you can not back it up by scripture. For me God always backs its up by His word but it seems for some a vision is all one needs to prove something they believed.

Now just because a bunch of people call you a prophet yet you call your self a messenger does not make you a prophet. If.. we are going according to the word of God there are a few.. that means more then one gift that must be in a true prophets life. Today oh wow there are so many so called prophets when asked about "gifts" you will hear things like "I am not kind of prophet" So a true prophet with everything I have read and what she has said and saw..... she was not a prophet that does not mean she didn't have gifts.

What some do today is if they are used in the "gift of prophecy" then run with "ooh I'm a prophet". Not how it works. So was she inspired? Sure but not in everything somethings she was deceived.

I don't think visions are a good indicator that someone is inspired, as anyone can claim to have a vision, and you can't prove that they didn't. So, I think visions allows false teachers to have some cover when confronted.

That's not to say that visions can't be from God, but it must be backed up with Scripture.

 

[trophy33]

I don't think visions are a good indicator that someone is inspired, as anyone can claim to have a vision, and you can't prove that they didn't. So, I think visions allows false teachers to have some cover when confronted.

That's not to say that visions can't be from God, but it must be backed up with Scripture.

I would even believe that people truly have visions, several mental disorders or taking some substances can lead to such things occurring. But the origin of these visions is in the brain, not supernatural.

When we watch a movie, we have sometimes dreams about it. Similarly, if someone is reading Bible or listening to preaching a lot, their hallucinations/visions can have this theme.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am SDA so my views may be considered biased - and of course I accept the statement that Ellen White is an example of a true prophet, someone who had the real 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy also mentioned in 1 Cor 14 and Eph 4..

In any case the Bible does speak about prophets and the gift of prophecy.

A good example of a major prophetic statement by Ellen White can be found at this link Chapter 40 of the book Great Controversy -- The Great Controversy

As SDAs we always say all doctrine is to stand or fall "sola scriptura" and the Bible says that all prophets must be tested against well established doctrine that has been tested sola scriptura as we see in Acts 17:11 and in Gal 1:6-9.

Whether one is talking about Ellen White or not does not matter when it comes to what the Bible teaches about the gift of prophecy. The Bible does not say "the gift of prophecy works like this and this... unless the prophet is Ellen White".

So we have 1 Cor 12 for the gift of prophecy and we have Numbers 12:

Numbers 12:6 He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.

Under the Theocracy of Israel false prophets were to be stoned and the reason for that is not "well if you have an incorrect idea in your head you should be stoned" - but rather it was based on the fact that the message from God to that prophet is infallible since God is the source and not the prophet. So anyone who claims they got a direct message from God and that message contradicts the Bible or is proven false then that is proof that they are a false prophet.

Of course Jonah was not a false prophet even though his prediction did not come true. And that is because of the Jeremiah 18 principle of conditional prophecy. Jonah does not specify 'The condition' in his prophecy -- but it was there all the same.

Did she have a prophecy that failed? Did she teach the trinity?

 

[BobRyan]

Did she have a prophecy that failed? Did she teach the trinity?

Yes - She did teach the trinity. Remember she was raised United Methodist and she never made statements against the Trinity - in fact she made very strong statements about the Holy Spirit as "The Third Person of the godhead" etc. As well as stating that in Jesus was "life unborrowed, underived". She never claims that God the father created the Son, in her writings the Son is not a created being. She never claims Jesus was not fully God. Rather she explicitly affirmed that he is fully God.

She made some predictions that fall into the category that Jonah's prediction falls into according to Jeremiah 18.

In the Mid 1800's she predicted that the US would become the world dominating superpower that it is today.

to see how extremely unlikely that outcome was in the Mid-1800's watch these two videos.

How US became most powerful nation

 

[Dahveed]

In case you do not know who Ellen White was, she is one of the founders of the 7th Day Adventist Church and is often considered a prophet by this denomination. Her writings are considered inspired, but there is some debate within the church over what exactly that means in relation to the Bible.
I've been looking for a nuanced, unbiased discussion about White, and whether she is actually inspired.
What are your thoughts?

“The inspired utterance of David son of Jesse,
‘One shall come who rules the people righteously; He is like the light of morning at sunrise 2 Sam 23:1-5
'I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.' Revelation 22:16-17

We also have the prophetic word confirmed, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 2 Peter 1:19

 

[BobRyan]

So we have 1 Cor 12 for the gift of prophecy and we have Numbers 12:
Numbers 12:6 He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.

I would even believe that people truly have visions, several mental disorders or taking some substances can lead to such things occurring. But the origin of these visions is in the brain, not supernatural.

When we watch a movie, we have sometimes dreams about it. Similarly, if someone is reading Bible or listening to preaching a lot, their hallucinations/visions can have this theme.

Almost everyone has dreams.

Numbers 12 above does not say "anyone who has a dream is speaking to God as a prophet in that dream" it also does not say "anyone who has a dream is being spoken to by God"

All squares are rectangles but that does not say that all rectangles are in fact square.

There is a not-so-subtle difference here.

 

[trophy33]

So we have 1 Cor 12 for the gift of prophecy and we have Numbers 12:
Numbers 12:6 He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.


Almost everyone has dreams.

Numbers 12 above does not say "anyone who has a dream is speaking to God as a prophet in that dream" it also does not say "anyone who has a dream is being spoken to by God"

All squares are rectangles but that does not say that all rectangles are in fact square.

There is a not-so-subtle difference here.

I am not sure what the point of your post is, but if you meant to just confirm my post, i.e. that people can have "natural" visions/hallucinations which are not from God/inspired, then we agree.

I put "natural" in quotes, because though their explanation is not supernatural, they are caused by a mental disorder or by hallucinogens.

 

[BobRyan]

I am not sure what the point of your post is, but if you meant to just confirm my post, i.e. that people can have "natural" visions/hallucinations which are not from God/inspired, then we agree.

Yes - I was pointing that out - and noting that this is not what Numbers 12 was talking about. IT is addressing the work of a prophet and God communicating through dreams and visions to that prophet -- as the text says. Not through "mental disorders"

 

[trophy33]

Yes - I was pointing that out - and noting that this is not what Numbers 12 was talking about. IT is addressing the work of a prophet and God communicating through dreams and visions to that prophet -- as the text says. Not through "mental disorders"

I was not talking about Numbers 12.

I was replying to another contributor here in the thread that, people can sincerely believe they have visions from God, but it can be just a mental disorder or some substance they intake.

 

[Dahveed]

Yes - I was pointing that out - and noting that this is not what Numbers 12 was talking about. IT is addressing the work of a prophet...

As for the prophet who prophesies peace, people will know when the word comes to pass; Jer 28:9, Isaiah 55:10-12

You know the word that God sent to the children of Israel, proclaiming peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
...the Holy Spirit descended upon all who heard the word. Acts 10:36-44

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Ok SDA, I get it, you don’t like the Catholic Church and blame her for violating God’s law and making the Christian day of worship Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath. You believe that this is a grave matter that concerns the fate of souls, so you rail against Catholicism with vigor, and that would be praised by God if it were true. Just as the man in the Bible who slew the Israelites that married foreign women against the law and command of God was praised for being zealous for his God, you believe that it is righteous to oppose the Church by any means necessary. We read in The Great Controversy chapter 35:

The church's claim to the right to pardon leads the Romanist to feel at liberty to sin; and the ordinance of confession, without which her pardon is not granted, tends also to give license to evil. He who kneels before fallen man, and opens in confession the secret thoughts and imaginations of his heart, is debasing his manhood and degrading every noble instinct of his soul. In unfolding the sins of his life to a priest,—an erring, sinful mortal, and too often corrupted with wine and licentiousness,—his standard of character is lowered, and he is defiled in consequence. His thought of God is degraded to the likeness of fallen humanity, for the priest stands as a representative of God. This degrading confession of man to man is the secret spring from which has flowed much of the evil that is defiling the world and fitting it for the final destruction. Yet to him who loves self-indulgence, [568] it is more pleasing to confess to a fellow mortal than to open the soul to God. It is more palatable to human nature to do penance than to renounce sin; it is easier to mortify the flesh by sackcloth and nettles and galling chains than to crucify fleshly lusts. Heavy is the yoke which the carnal heart is willing to bear rather than bow to the yoke of Christ.


One of the marks of a prophet is that they do not contradict the word of God. If they do, that would make them a false prophet and unworthy of allegiance or study. In her attack on the Catholic Church, what has Ellen White done here? She contradicts the word of God by degrading confession and penance. She doesn’t like the Catholic practice and believes it to be false? That does not give her the right to directly contradict God in His word. A true prophet would have incorporated the scripture in her argument and showed how it was being violated, but she did not do that. She went for direct contradiction; the well know baby out with the bath water done by many false rebels.

On confession we read in the Bible:

Confess your sins one to another James 5:16
It does not say to confess to God alone, but Ellen White does

On penance we read:



Luke 13:3
No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
{This is a solemn promise of Christ to all of us. Unless we do penance, we will “perish.”}

Job 42:6
Therefore I reprehend myself, and do penance in dust and ashes.

Ecclesiasticus 2:22
If we do not penance, we shall fall into the hands of the Lord, and not into the hands of men.
{If we don’t experience discipline in this life, we shall experience it in the next.}

Jeremiah 31:19
For after thou didst convert me, I did penance: and after thou didst shew unto me, I struck my thigh: I am confounded and ashamed, because I have borne the reproach of my youth.
{Notice here, that penance comes after conversion.}

Lamentations 2:14
Thy prophets have seen false and foolish things for thee: and they have not laid open thy iniquity, to excite thee to penance: but they have seen for thee false revelations and banishments.
{Here the spiritual leaders of Israel have wrongly induced the people to follow after false revelations or apparitions. Instead, they should have led the people to penance. Incidentally, Saint Francis is the perfect example of the right leader. He doesn’t appeal to apparitions or even to his stigmata. He appeals to the power of prayer, fasting, and penance.}

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die.
{This is the great promise for Lent. If we humble ourselves and live sacrificially, we will have life. God is merciful and loving and He desires our transformation into the image of Christ His Son.}

Matthew 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.
{Here we find that true repentance requires fruit – it requires outward acts that conform to the inward reality.}

Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.
{This is a sobering verse. Christ doesn’t work miracles where the people don’t repent. Divine power is restricted by human pride.}

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?
{The love, mercy, and benignity of God brings us to a true repentance. Notice that being mean and hateful does not bring others to penance.}

Apocalypse 2:5
Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.
{Here “do penance” and “do the first works” are paired together. Penance has an outward dimension, because sin also has an outward dimension. The horrifying truth is that Christ will snuff out the Church of any region if they don’t live a life of penitence.}

The Bible tells us to do penance. Ellen White does not. She says human nature is more content to do penance, but that is absurd and the Bible says so. People like to be forgiven but do not want to admit they are wrong. They would rather have their ears tickled and told how good they are. That is deception. The Bible tells us to repent

Ellen white is a false teacher and certainly not a prophet although she has attracted a following

 

[BobRyan]

Ok SDA, I get it, you don’t like the Catholic Church

I don't know of anyone here going around with the screen name "SDA" - so not sure who that post is for.

and blame her for violating God’s law and making the Christian day of worship Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath.

1. Our Claim is that the Catholic church has published statements about who made the change and why.
2. Our claim is that WE are not the Catholic church so when the Catholic church claims it is doing something or that it did something -- they are not talking about the SDA denomination.

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the following points.
1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

======================================

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3. The Third Commandment.
Q. What is the Third Commandment?
A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.


Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday ?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

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Out of curiosity - how much of what the Catholic Church publishes - do you blame on the SDA denomination????

 

[BobRyan]

Just as the man in the Bible who slew the Israelites that married foreign women against the law and command of God was praised for being zealous for his God, you believe that it is righteous to oppose the Church by any means necessary.

By contrast we do NOT believe "it is righteous to oppose any group at all (and that includes the Catholic church) -- by any means".

For example - we are not the ones publishing the command to "exterminate heretics" in the supposedly infallible ecumenical council of LATERAN IV.

That is not a method we use. We are not in favor of the "by any means necessary" idea -- we are not the source of that sort of thing.

 

[BobRyan]

On confession we read in the Bible:

Confess your sins one to another James 5:16
It does not say to confess to God alone, but Ellen White does

1. You did not quote Ellen White saying James 5 :16 says "confess your sins to God alone" rather than "confess your sins one to another" -- I guess we all could see that point.

2. 1 John 1:9 IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to forgive us our sins 1 John 1:9. That is a reference to "God alone"

Psalm 32:5
I acknowledged my sin to You,
And my iniquity I did not hide;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”;
And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.

1 John 1:
... And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1 Advocate, one mediator
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,


Ps 51:
Be gracious to me, God, according to Your faithfulness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion, wipe out my wrongdoings.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my guilt
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my wrongdoings,
And my sin is constantly before me.
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.