• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Ellen White: Inspired?

biblelesson

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2021
1,129
417
67
College Park
✟84,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok SDA, I get it, you don’t like the Catholic Church and blame her for violating God’s law and making the Christian day of worship Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath. You believe that this is a grave matter that concerns the fate of souls, so you rail against Catholicism with vigor, and that would be praised by God if it were true. Just as the man in the Bible who slew the Israelites that married foreign women against the law and command of God was praised for being zealous for his God, you believe that it is righteous to oppose the Church by any means necessary. We read in The Great Controversy chapter 35:

The church's claim to the right to pardon leads the Romanist to feel at liberty to sin; and the ordinance of confession, without which her pardon is not granted, tends also to give license to evil. He who kneels before fallen man, and opens in confession the secret thoughts and imaginations of his heart, is debasing his manhood and degrading every noble instinct of his soul. In unfolding the sins of his life to a priest,—an erring, sinful mortal, and too often corrupted with wine and licentiousness,—his standard of character is lowered, and he is defiled in consequence. His thought of God is degraded to the likeness of fallen humanity, for the priest stands as a representative of God. This degrading confession of man to man is the secret spring from which has flowed much of the evil that is defiling the world and fitting it for the final destruction. Yet to him who loves self-indulgence, [568] it is more pleasing to confess to a fellow mortal than to open the soul to God. It is more palatable to human nature to do penance than to renounce sin; it is easier to mortify the flesh by sackcloth and nettles and galling chains than to crucify fleshly lusts. Heavy is the yoke which the carnal heart is willing to bear rather than bow to the yoke of Christ.


One of the marks of a prophet is that they do not contradict the word of God. If they do, that would make them a false prophet and unworthy of allegiance or study. In her attack on the Catholic Church, what has Ellen White done here? She contradicts the word of God by degrading confession and penance. She doesn’t like the Catholic practice and believes it to be false? That does not give her the right to directly contradict God in His word. A true prophet would have incorporated the scripture in her argument and showed how it was being violated, but she did not do that. She went for direct contradiction; the well know baby out with the bath water done by many false rebels.

On confession we read in the Bible:

Confess your sins one to another James 5:16
It does not say to confess to God alone, but Ellen White does

On penance we read:



Luke 13:3
No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
{This is a solemn promise of Christ to all of us. Unless we do penance, we will “perish.”}

Job 42:6
Therefore I reprehend myself, and do penance in dust and ashes.

Ecclesiasticus 2:22
If we do not penance, we shall fall into the hands of the Lord, and not into the hands of men.
{If we don’t experience discipline in this life, we shall experience it in the next.}

Jeremiah 31:19
For after thou didst convert me, I did penance: and after thou didst shew unto me, I struck my thigh: I am confounded and ashamed, because I have borne the reproach of my youth.
{Notice here, that penance comes after conversion.}

Lamentations 2:14
Thy prophets have seen false and foolish things for thee: and they have not laid open thy iniquity, to excite thee to penance: but they have seen for thee false revelations and banishments.
{Here the spiritual leaders of Israel have wrongly induced the people to follow after false revelations or apparitions. Instead, they should have led the people to penance. Incidentally, Saint Francis is the perfect example of the right leader. He doesn’t appeal to apparitions or even to his stigmata. He appeals to the power of prayer, fasting, and penance.}

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die.
{This is the great promise for Lent. If we humble ourselves and live sacrificially, we will have life. God is merciful and loving and He desires our transformation into the image of Christ His Son.}

Matthew 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.
{Here we find that true repentance requires fruit – it requires outward acts that conform to the inward reality.}

Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.
{This is a sobering verse. Christ doesn’t work miracles where the people don’t repent. Divine power is restricted by human pride.}

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?
{The love, mercy, and benignity of God brings us to a true repentance. Notice that being mean and hateful does not bring others to penance.}

Apocalypse 2:5
Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.
{Here “do penance” and “do the first works” are paired together. Penance has an outward dimension, because sin also has an outward dimension. The horrifying truth is that Christ will snuff out the Church of any region if they don’t live a life of penitence.}

The Bible tells us to do penance. Ellen White does not. She says human nature is more content to do penance, but that is absurd and the Bible says so. People like to be forgiven but do not want to admit they are wrong. They would rather have their ears tickled and told how good they are. That is deception. The Bible tells us to repent

Ellen white is a false teacher and certainly not a prophet although she has attracted a following
Penance is not to repent. They are two diffrent words, with two different meanings.
Why are you using the word penance in place of the word repent in the scripture? God said to repent. He did not say to do penance.

Repent - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin - this is a Godly sorrow.

Penances- voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong - this is based on self and works based; with no Godly sorrow attached
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
30,307
13,962
73
✟423,203.00
Faith
Non-Denom
It is a tiny snip regarding a prediction about a future event -- in this case an event more than 100 years future to her death... one that has yet to happen.

I suppose you could argue you have a better view of the future than God gave Ellen White.. you have free will and can say anything you wish.

But in this case it is like saying "are you claiming that anyone that does not stand next to Noah, is not alive? or will die of drowning whenever they happen to die?". It is a nonsensical claim because it rips the whole thing out of context.

Do you find claims based on out-of-context snips to be entertaining?
I take that as a positive answer to my question. Thank you.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,366
11,910
Georgia
✟1,094,287.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Ok SDA, I get it, you don’t like the Catholic Church and blame her for violating God’s law and making the Christian day of worship Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath. You believe that this is a grave matter that concerns the fate of souls, so you rail against Catholicism with vigor, and that would be praised by God if it were true.
first of all this is a non-SDA thread. Not an SDA thread.
Secondly it is Catholic source documents that you appear to object to - as they are what has been referenced on this thread.
Thirdly you also seem to object to the fact that some non-Catholic writers do not agree with positions held by the Catholic church in her own historic statements and doctrinal positions.
One of the marks of a prophet is that they do not contradict the word of God.
If they do, that would make them a false prophet and unworthy of allegiance or study.

Amen to that..

We call it "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice - which is the basis upon which we also evaluate the teachings of the RCC
She contradicts the word of God by degrading confession and penance.
whose "confession and penance"?? the Bible's ? or the Catholic Church's?
She doesn’t like the Catholic practice and believes it to be false?
I think that is an accurate statement.
That does not give her the right to directly contradict God in His word.
True. And it is also true that you did not show her doing any such thing.
A true prophet would have incorporated the scripture in her argument and showed how it was being violated, but she did not do that.
If you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation you will find that prophets (like Jonah for example) do not always engage in a Bible study while correcting doctrine and practice. (See Gal 4 and 1 Cor 5 for other examples of this)

She went for direct contradiction;
You have yet to show that.
Confess your sins one to another James 5:16
Not private sins - but ones committed against another person as Christ informs us in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer

"forgive us our debts as we forgive those who sin against us"

More Bible - less skimming over Bible details please.
It does not say to confess to God alone, but Ellen White does

On penance we read:

Luke 13:3
No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
{This is a solemn promise of Christ to all of us. Unless we do penance, we will “perish.”}

Job 42:6
Therefore I reprehend myself, and do penance in dust and ashes.

Ecclesiasticus 2:22
If we do not penance, we shall fall into the hands of the Lord, and not into the hands of men.
{If we don’t experience discipline in this life, we shall experience it in the next.}


Eccl 2:22 For what does a person get in all his labor and in his striving with which he labors under the sun?
Luke 13:3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Job 4:26 Therefore I retract, And I repent, sitting on dust and ashes.”

None of that is "penance"

Penance is not to repent. They are two diffrent words, with two different meanings.
Why are you using the word penance in place of the word repent in the scripture? God said to repent. He did not say to do penance.

Repent - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin - this is a Godly sorrow.

Penances- voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong - this is based on self and works based; with no Godly sorrow attached

Exactly
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,573
8,213
50
The Wild West
✟762,391.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Not true about "close enough" - according to a Waldensian community that settled in North Carolina and built replicas of the Piedmont area where they were persecuted and "exterminated".

The Piedmont Easter, which is the genocidal event you refer to, was perpetrated by the Roman Catholics and had nothing to do with the Calvinists. If you visit the Waldensian community in North Carolina, you will discover their church, which has an ethnically Waldensian pastor, is a parish kirk of the Presbyterian Church USA.

Methodists are not Calvinist.

Untrue, historically there has always existed Calvinist Methodism, embodied in the likes of George Whitefield and the Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion, and also Methodism and Calvinism tend to be close enough in praxis, if not high theology, that the Waldensians becoming Methodist in the process of becoming the main Protestant church in Italy is not in the least bit shocking. In my youth my experience was the local UMC church usually had the best relations with the local PCUSA church.
 
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,389
524
Parts Unknown
✟520,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Really that is very interesting considering the puritanical attitude of Graham and Kellogg (as in the eponymous crackers and children’s cereal) which among other things were hoped by their Adventist manufacturers to interfere with concupiscence and the desire for it.

When did the SDA adopt this new position?
I am assuming you are talking about abortion. the date was 1984. It was passed in an executive committee a board meeting, rather then the General Conference Session. The whole church did not vote on this. Adventism has gone through a revalution of Sorts. As they SDA church as become more educated, they have become less dependent on EGW. EGW holds say over people who are not as educated. they are more liberal in the upper levels of the Church. They don't tell people that. This of course is the Greatest generation and the Baby Boomer's I am talking about. the GenX and Millenals and Gen Z are something else. They are dropping out like flies or not stepping up at all.
It also seems strange in light of the admirable moralism we find in EGW, including the practice of conscientious objection to military service, and other things, all of which are in the abstract good even if according to both Scripture and the early Church such things would constitute what the Anglican BCP famously refers to as Acts of Supererogation (which presumably means “above and beyond rogation” as in “Rogation Days” the meaning of which I am sure you are aware).
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
8,868
1,509
Visit site
✟300,504.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Penance is not to repent. They are two diffrent words, with two different meanings.
Why are you using the word penance in place of the word repent in the scripture? God said to repent. He did not say to do penance.

Repent - feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin - this is a Godly sorrow.

Penances- voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong - this is based on self and works based; with no Godly sorrow attached
you seem to not understand either definition

Repentance is the act of repenting. It is reviewing one's actions, and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs, which is accompanied by and commitment to actual actions with show and prove a change for the better. It is not just feeling sorrow, but actually changing behavior.

Penance is any act or set of actions done out of repentance for sins committed.

you have produced a false dichotomy in your definitions

The Bible does say faith without works is dead. It also says that not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of my Father. We are not saved by our works, rather salvation working within us is expressed by our works. Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments. That requires work and not lip service
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,389
524
Parts Unknown
✟520,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
you seem to not understand either definition

Repentance is the act of repenting. It is reviewing one's actions, and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs, which is accompanied by and commitment to actual actions with show and prove a change for the better. It is not just feeling sorrow, but actually changing behavior.

Penance is any act or set of actions done out of repentance for sins committed.

you have produced a false dichotomy in your definitions

The Bible does say faith without works is dead. It also says that not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of my Father. We are not saved by our works, rather salvation working within us is expressed by our works. Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments. That requires work and not lip service
RE penting is to Pent again
 
Upvote 0

biblelesson

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2021
1,129
417
67
College Park
✟84,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
you seem to not understand either definition

Repentance is the act of repenting. It is reviewing one's actions, and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs, which is accompanied by and commitment to actual actions with show and prove a change for the better. It is not just feeling sorrow, but actually changing behavior.

Penance is any act or set of actions done out of repentance for sins committed.
Which scripture in the Bible show acts of penance? What acts did John the Baptist and the disciples do to show acts of penance?
 
Upvote 0

anetazo

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2023
522
123
52
Meriden
✟27,501.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
The last prophet was John Baptist and Jesus. Christian people are disciples of God. Apostle means = discipline. Get the picture. Matthew chapter 7, Jesus warns us of sheep in wolves clothing. Are we catching on?. There's many false preachers running around. BEYTH KAR in Hebrew means = house of pasture. The false preachers are not nourishing the flocks. Money is their agenda. Have you looked at net worth of Joel olsteen or pat Robertson?? Wake up !!. MIKSHOL in Hebrew = Stumbling Block.

The false preachers or motivation speakers keep the flocks on milk. They are deprived of the Meat of God's word. James chapter 1, All wisdom and knowledge comes from God. Someone is getting the short end of the stick !!.

PANOURGIA in Greek means = crafty, trickery. False preachers prey on ignorance. God can open eyes to understand mystery of God, the meat of God's word, if person Sincerely asks God. In second samuel, king David was being punished by God for major sins he committed. But David saw through the craftiness of devious individuals he came across. Practice spirtual discernment !.
 
Upvote 0

Richard.20.12

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2020
660
229
Vancouver
✟48,736.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In case you do not know who Ellen White was, she is one of the founders of the 7th Day Adventist Church and is often considered a prophet by this denomination. Her writings are considered inspired, but there is some debate within the church over what exactly that means in relation to the Bible.

I've been looking for a nuanced, unbiased discussion about White, and whether she is actually inspired.

What are your thoughts?
I haven't read much of her but what I did read seemed like trite rubbish. She tries to write with authority and falls flat. It seems so fake. You'd have to be almost illiterate not to notice her pumped up writing style.

She fictionalizes Bible stories inserting volumes of information that is not in the Bible. In short, she makes stuff up.

She claims to have received visions. Yeah? Well name one specific prophecy of hers that came true. Actually you better name a bunch because she prophesied a lot, much like Nostradamous so by sheer volume something must come true. A broken clock is right twice a day. To me much of the SDA movement is sensible and down to Earth. They sure are bang on in regards to the Sabbath but so are the Messiacs who seem very Biblical with their priorities straight. Why they hold this fruitcake in such high regard is a mystery. It makes no sense. I notice Doug Bachelor hardly mentions her. Thankfully. Because he has some great messages. He sure seems to represent the SDA's well.

Apparently her view of the Trinity varied during her lifetime. I don't know why they even mention it. When Jesus said "I and my Father are one" it's pretty clear. The use of the plural in the Creation is another tick for Trinity. The way the Holy Spirit is so integrated into the Godhead is another. The only differential I see is when asked when the end times were Jesus said that only the Father knows. What do the strong Trinitarians say about that? It would be nice if the Bible explained that but when it's not explained that probably means God wants us to ponder it to get more depth of understanding.

SDA's seem to have a slightly different view of the aspect of temptation and Jesus. They seem to feel that Jesus was closer to man than most Christians do. I think if Jesus was remotely close to man He would have fallen into sin. He was on this Earth for 33 years. That's a lot of time to screw up! Yet when you read the New Testament it's very clear He was not even close to being a man spiritually.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Richard.20.12

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2020
660
229
Vancouver
✟48,736.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Within the SDA church it means she was inspired in the same way as Agabus in the book of Acts or any other prophet that did not write scripture.

All prophets are inspired by God if they are true prophets so the church responds to the message of all true prophets - as a message from God and not "a message from faulty human making his/her best human guess"
I would think anyone inspired by God would sure write better than the blather White wrote. It's very telling. I can't believe she is respected at all. Let's hear what she prophesied and when. Please.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Richard.20.12

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2020
660
229
Vancouver
✟48,736.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1. You did not quote Ellen White saying James 5 :16 says "confess your sins to God alone" rather than "confess your sins one to another" -- I guess we all could see that point.

2. 1 John 1:9 IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to forgive us our sins 1 John 1:9. That is a reference to "God alone"

Psalm 32:5
I acknowledged my sin to You,
And my iniquity I did not hide;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”;
And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.

1 John 1:
... And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1 Advocate, one mediator
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,


Ps 51:
Be gracious to me, God, according to Your faithfulness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion, wipe out my wrongdoings.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my guilt
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my wrongdoings,
And my sin is constantly before me.
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
"The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."
This has got to be one of the most egotistical statements any religious organization has ever uttered. Only people that don't read their Bible could be fooled by such words. The Bible warns us repeatedly that ALL people sin. We are all flawed and have our weaknesses. So to say such a thing just contradicts and trivializes the Bible. But what do Catholics care? They don't read their Bible. They go to Mass and say Hail Mary a few times, or pray by repeating words so many time it's like a trance, then pop into the confessional (are there confessionals in the Bible???) and their slate is wiped clean, except no one can forgive sins but God. Oops! How can one organization get so many things wrong? It's truly mind boggling.
 
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,389
524
Parts Unknown
✟520,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
"The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."
This has got to be one of the most egotistical statements any religious organization has ever uttered. Only people that don't read their Bible could be fooled by such words.
please clarify this. what makes that egotistical statments. it is untrue. I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.

The Bible warns us repeatedly that ALL people sin. We are all flawed and have our weaknesses. So to say such a thing just contradicts and trivializes the Bible. But what do Catholics care? They don't read their Bible. They go to Mass and say Hail Mary a few times, or pray by repeating words so many time it's like a trance, then pop into the confessional (are there confessionals in the Bible???) and their slate is wiped clean, except no one can forgive sins but God. Oops! How can one organization get so many things wrong? It's truly mind boggling.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,573
8,213
50
The Wild West
✟762,391.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
"The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."
This has got to be one of the most egotistical statements any religious organization has ever uttered. Only people that don't read their Bible could be fooled by such words. The Bible warns us repeatedly that ALL people sin. We are all flawed and have our weaknesses. So to say such a thing just contradicts and trivializes the Bible. But what do Catholics care? They don't read their Bible. They go to Mass and say Hail Mary a few times, or pray by repeating words so many time it's like a trance, then pop into the confessional (are there confessionals in the Bible???) and their slate is wiped clean, except no one can forgive sins but God. Oops! How can one organization get so many things wrong? It's truly mind boggling.

I am not Roman Catholic, but I have to say, these polemics against them are mean-spirited. Roman Catholics do read their Bibles, indeed, they receive an automatic indulgence for reading the Bible, and the Bible is read in the vernacular at every mass, even the exquisite traditional Latin masses that Pope Francis is trying to abolish. And regarding confessionals, these are not needed for the sacrament of Confession, which Martin Luther also regarded as a sacrament, and Anglicans also do confession, and the Orthodox have a similar practice called Reconciliation albeit without mandatory penances, and the old fashioned confessional booth one sees in films are so rare that in all the Roman Catholic churches I have visited in my lifetime, even cathedrals in Europe, I have yet to see one of them. They were invented probably in the Baroque period, having a design typical of Mannerist or early Baroque Italian architecture, and were becoming rare by the 1960s, and those that remained were mostly removed after Vatican II. Many Catholics do see the priest and are able to make eye contact with him when going to confession. And also it is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and all other such churches that God is the one forgiving the sins, ultimately; the priest pronounces absolution exercising the power to bind and loose that is granted in Matthew 16:18. Actually, the only Roman Catholic doctrines that I disagree with are those related to Scholastic theology, which were adopted along with Papal Supremacy during the split with the Eastern Orthodox, but even here the Catholic Church has largely amended things.

I wish that you would respond to criticism of the Adventist church rather than attacking the Roman Catholic Church. Indeed the main reason I find myself debating Adventists so frequently is because these attacks against a caricature of the Roman Catholic Church, combined with the fact that the Adventists arguably adhere to works righteousness and are arguably not sola scriptura, due to the emphasis placed on observing the Law and on the infallible interpretations of Scripture by Ellen G White, whose writings are more authoritative for Adventists than anything in the Roman Catholic magisterium, leave somewhat of a bad taste in my mouth. Some Adventist members of the forum do not get involved in these endless polemics and I have a great respect and affinity for those members, for they recognize that you will not convert people through argumentation. Thus, in responding to you, I can’t hope to convert you to my denomination, or the Roman church, or any other denomination, but that is not my goal; my goal is to try to communicate the degree to which these polemics are misguided and pointless.
 
Upvote 0

Richard.20.12

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2020
660
229
Vancouver
✟48,736.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
please clarify this. what makes that egotistical statments. it is untrue. I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.
> I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.

I'm upset about the gall of the Catholics to think they have the authority to change something clearly stated in the Bible. The word Catholic isn't even in the Bible. Peter probably didn't even go to Rome to "found his church" for the Catholics. It's really time we help Catholics up to examination. They have twisted and distorted Christianity long enough because they have drifted far from the Word and so many Catholics spend no time in their Bible. The whole organization is focused on the leaders in the church and Mary. Funny but I don't see that in the Bible. In the Bible the focus was on Jesus. Pure and simple. Not someone Jesus himself referred to as "Woman" instead of mother. She was a sinner just like everyone around Him and I believe that is precisely why He used that word. It puts her in her place and rightfully so. Perhaps she was trying to use his authority to raise her social standing. Right after that she says to them to do what He says. Like was that necessary? Would she say that if she hadn't given birth to Him? I doubt that. It certainly is a fascinating part of scripture. But the more you analyze it the more twisted Catholicism appears. Can you imagine if a Catholic church of today was addressed in Revelation as the 8th church? Can you imagine the dressing down it would receive? Visually the whole thing would be sliding into the Lake of Fire.
 
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,389
524
Parts Unknown
✟520,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
"The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."
This has got to be one of the most egotistical statements any religious organization has ever uttered. Only people that don't read their Bible could be fooled by such words.
please clarify this. what makes that egotistical statments. it is untrue. I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.

The Bible warns us repeatedly that ALL people sin. We are all flawed and have our weaknesses. So to say such a thing just contradicts and trivializes the Bible. But what do Catholics care? They don't read their Bible. They go to Mass and say Hail Mary a few times, or pray by repeating words so many time it's like a trance, then pop into the confessional (are there confessionals in the Bible???) and their slate is wiped clean, except no one can forgive sins but God. Oops! How can one organization get so many things wrong? It's truly mind boggling.

> I am not sure who you are upset about, the reality of the statement or that the SDA's made the statment.

I'm upset about the gall of the Catholics to think they have the authority to change something clearly stated in the Bible.
They would answer with 'the key" were given to Peter and the apostles "to bind and loose"

The word Catholic isn't even in the Bible.
the word is universal in Latin
Peter probably didn't even go to Rome to "found his church" for the Catholics.
Rome came to Peter. there were delegations that came to Passover and Pentacost and went back to Rome. That is how the Church of Rome was founded. Peter eventually went there and gave 5 sermons that are now the book of Mark. Then he was be headed.
It's really time we help Catholics up to examination. They have twisted and distorted Christianity long enough because they have drifted far from the Word and so many Catholics spend no time in their Bible.
While I agree with you that there is error in the Catholic Church and it is corrupt. but many of the things they teach are biblically based. More then protestants think. I would refer you to the "saint Paul center for Biblical Theology" Run by Scott Hahn. He give biblically based answers on the Catholic faith.

The whole organization is focused on the leaders in the church and Mary.
It is true. they go to far with that. but it is base in History. the affirmation of mary was the way you affirmed the humanity of Christ. the early converts could believe in the divine aspect of Christ but not the human side. It was unfathomable to believe that the gods would be come human. honoring Mary was a way to do that.
Funny but I don't see that in the Bible. In the Bible the focus was on Jesus. Pure and simple. Not someone Jesus himself referred to as "Woman" instead of mother. She was a sinner just like everyone around Him and I believe that is precisely why He used that word.
I think you have some issue here that have nothing to do with Mary, need to do some introspection about that.

It puts her in her place and rightfully so. Perhaps she was trying to use his authority to raise her social standing. Right after that she says to them to do what He says. Like was that necessary? Would she say that if she hadn't given birth to Him? I doubt that.
again some introspection would be go. Why are you so angry?
It certainly is a fascinating part of scripture. But the more you analyze it the more twisted Catholicism appears. Can you imagine if a Catholic church of today was addressed in Revelation as the 8th church? Can you imagine the dressing down it would receive? Visually the whole thing would be sliding into the Lake of Fire.
It is corrupt for sure.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,573
8,213
50
The Wild West
✟762,391.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Rome came to Peter. there were delegations that came to Passover and Pentacost and went back to Rome. That is how the Church of Rome was founded. Peter eventually went there and gave 5 sermons that are now the book of Mark. Then he was be headed.

This is correct, except my recollection is that St. Peter was crucified upside down, just as his brother St. Andrew was crucified on an X shaped cross, as the two sons of Jonah felt it would be wrong to be crucified in the same way as Christ our God. However, St. Paul, as a Roman citizen, was beheaded outside the Pomerium, the sacred inner walls of Rome beyond which no weapons were permitted, and thus the Circus Maximus, one of the Curiae of the Senate, and the Colloseum, were all outside the Pomerium (this was not an option for executions that took place inside the Pomerium, like those of captured foreign leaders like Vercigenitorix of the Gauls, who if I recall like most Roman prisoners was strangled and thrown in the sewer in the Tullianum, the Roman execution chamber,, or certain other cases, such as Vestal Virgins who ceased to be the latter).
 
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,389
524
Parts Unknown
✟520,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
This is correct, except my recollection is that St. Peter was crucified upside down, just as his brother St. Andrew was crucified on an X shaped cross, as the two sons of Jonah felt it would be wrong to be crucified in the same way as Christ our God. However, St. Paul, as a Roman citizen, was beheaded outside the Pomerium, the sacred inner walls of Rome beyond which no weapons were permitted, and thus the Circus Maximus, one of the Curiae of the Senate, and the Colloseum, were all outside the Pomerium (this was not an option for executions that took place inside the Pomerium, like those of captured foreign leaders like Vercigenitorix of the Gauls, who if I recall like most Roman prisoners was strangled and thrown in the sewer in the Tullianum, the Roman execution chamber,, or certain other cases, such as Vestal Virgins who ceased to be the latter).
ok I get perter and paul mixed up, but you are right.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0